Merged Gaza just launched an unprovoked attack on Israel

[Jimmy Higgins]

And to go a little off topic of this particular post here, does anyone here think it is just a convenient coincidence that this attack by Hamas happened while our own House of Representatives is without an official leader? Which hamstrings US response?

No.
Unless the USA response was to bomb Gaza if Hamas farted.
You might be given the US a little too much credit when none is due.

Well, the opposite, actually. What I was trying to get at is do you think that Tuberville and his holding up of military promotions And Gaetz orchestrating the removal of the speaker of the house—seems like less like just a fortuitous coincidence and more like part of a plan.

Don't assume malice when being dropped too often on their heads as a baby can suffice.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

So much for a negotiated solution. It's like Hamas wants nothing short of a military victory.

Good bit of umbrage when I phrased that as "We will drive them into the sea."
Tom

You made a claim about a direct quote that you refused to authenticate. "We will drive them into the sea" is not remotely the same as "a military victory" to anyone with a modicum of literacy and reasoning ability.

The best I could find was that it was a reference as an aside by the Nasser regarding Arab League meetings and Israel policy.

 

[lpetrich]

Some people seem to think that the people of Gaza Strip have regularly elected Hamas in free and competitive elections held every few years. But did they?

•  Elections in Palestine
•  1996 Palestinian general election
•  2005 Palestinian presidential election
•  2006 Palestinian legislative election
•  2012–13 Palestinian local elections
•  2017 Palestinian local elections
•  2021–22 Palestinian local elections
•  Next Palestinian presidential election
•  Next Palestinian legislative election
•  Battle of Gaza (2007)
•  Governance of the Gaza Strip

The first election in Palestine was held in 1996. Yasir Arafat won the election for President by 9:1, and Fatah (Palestinian National Liberation Movement) won a little over half the seats in the Legislative Council, with independents winning most of the rest.

The second election for President was in 2005, likely moved up because of the death of Yasir Arafat the previous year. Mahmoud Abbas of Fatah won with 67% of the vote, Mustafa Barghouti, an independent, 21%, and the rest a few percent each.

Yes, the same Mustafa Barghouti who was recently interviewed on CNN.

The second election for the legislature was in 2006. Hamas campaigned under the party name Change and Reform, and got 44% of the vote and 56% of the seats. Fatah got 41% of the votes and 34% of the seats. The other parties got a few seats each.

Presidential and legislative elections were scheduled for 2021, but they were performed indefinitely. Though elections were held in the West Bank in 2012, 2017, and 2021, none were held in the Gaza Strip after Hamas took over there in 2007 and removed Fatah officials.

Unlike the West Bank, the Gaza Strip hasn't had elections in 17 years.

 

[Gospel]

Nazis were a direct result of Germans being mistreated by the Great War victors.

I stand corrected. And by bilby again at that.

 

[Toni]

And to go a little off topic of this particular post here, does anyone here think it is just a convenient coincidence that this attack by Hamas happened while our own House of Representatives is without an official leader? Which hamstrings US response?

No.
Unless the USA response was to bomb Gaza if Hamas farted.
You might be given the US a little too much credit when none is due.

Well, the opposite, actually. What I was trying to get at is do you think that Tuberville and his holding up of military promotions And Gaetz orchestrating the removal of the speaker of the house—seems like less like just a fortuitous coincidence and more like part of a plan.

Don't assume malice when being dropped too often on their heads as a baby can suffice.

I think that Trump has been and to a certain extent remains an asset for Putin and others. It’s unwitting on Trump’s part. Most things are. Doesn’t make it less true. Gaetz is simply a low rent Trump. The fact that Gaetz cannot look beyond the end of his own dick—all 2.5 inches of it—and what’s in his bank account would make him easier rather than more difficult to use. Unwittingly, of course.

I’m sorry their mothers didn’t love them or teach them right from wrong or keep them away from bad influences.

 

[Derec]

Palestinians are 100% unrepresented by the government that shits on them, the government that oversees them.
That part.

I would not say 100%. They did vote for them, albeit in 2005 for Abass for president and in 2006 for Hamas in the legislative elections.
There have not been elections since. Abass/Fatah are afraid to hold any, out of fear Hamas will win.

For all their terrorist evil and the shitting they are doing on their own population, Hamas is still very popular on the Palestinian street.

 

[Derec]

Yeah being one of the largest recipients of U.S. foreign assistance just for recognizing Israel is rich indeed.

Does not make them exactly allied with Israel.
The current Egyptian government and Israel do share common enemies since Hamas is a spinoff from the Muslim Brotherhood. Deposed ex-president Mohammed Morsi was member of the Muslim Brotherhood btw.

 

[Derec]

And makes more if used improperly. The wests sheer ignorance of the Arab world alone strengthens the "enemy".

Can you enlighten us about this "ignorance"? What is the West missing? And why do you put "enemy" in scare quotes? Hamas should be the enemy of all civilized people.

 

[Derec]

However It's erroneous to believe that strategies effective against Nazi Germany would be equally successful in the Arab world.

I do not see why not. Certainly giving concessions has not worked. Israel even allowed some Gazans to work in Israel. And yet Gaza launched a terrorist attack that dwarfs 9/11 in the number of murdered as a share of the country's population.
Hamas must be destroyed just like German Nazi government had to be destroyed. Even if it meant bombing Dresden, Berlin and other German cities into rubble.

 

[Derec]

In the short run. History in the region suggests it strengthens the enemy in the long run. Unless you are proposing genocide.

Bombing Dresden and Berlin did not strengthen Nazi Germany in the long run.
Bombing Tokyo and Kyoto did not strengthen Imperial Japan in the long run.
Not even nuclear bombing Hiroshima and Nagasaki strengthened Imperial Japan in the long run.

Both of those nations are strong and prosperous today, but only because they rejected those regimes. Palestinians can achieve that too. But not before they reject the likes of Hamas and Islamic Jihad and abandon genocidal fantasies of destroying Israel.

 

[Derec]

Such a wonderful naive understanding of warfare.

What is naïve is to think that one can talk to genocidal terrorists of Hamas et al.

US went after Al Qaeda terrorists after 9/11. After ISIS emerged, we went after them, bombing the shit out of the territory . Raqqa in 2019 was no prettier than Gaza City in 2023. Was that "naïve"? Are Al Qaeda and ISIS stronger today because of US attacking them militarily?

 

[Gospel]

And makes more if used improperly. The wests sheer ignorance of the Arab world alone strengthens the "enemy".

Can you enlighten us about this "ignorance"? What is the West missing? And why do you put "enemy" in scare quotes? Hamas should be the enemy of all civilized people.

I used scare quotes because the word enemy carries a different meaning to Zionists (not saying you're one of them) .

Can you enlighten us about this "ignorance"? What is the West missing? And why do you put "enemy" in scare quotes? Hamas should be the enemy of all civilized people.

It's a matter of perspective. Does the emergence of groups like Hamas and Al Qaeda both being outcomes of U.S. policy seem indicative of ignorance to you? If not, then I'm unable to answer your question.

 

[Derec]

It is incredible how incendiary your post is. The "Jewish state"?

That is a common way to refer to Israel.

You are quite clearly trying to paint people that disagree with you regarding the realities of military violence and far-right wing Israeli governance as anti-Semites.

When one singles out Israel for condemnation I think it is anti-Semitism.
When one denies the Israel the right to self-defense against aggression from its neighbors, when other countries would be encouraged to defend themselves, I think it is anti-Semitism.
When one says that Israel should be destroyed (what the so-called "one state (final) solution" would accomplish), I think it is anti-Semitism.

Yes... in the nice imaginary world where this can actually happen, that'd be great.

Why can't it happen? Are you saying that Palestinians are so depraved that they will never give up on genocidal terrorism?

But seeing we live in the real world, and Israeli soldiers will be the ones bleeding to death (because you refuse to fight in this cause you feel must be accomplished) in this mission to rid the world of Hamas,

Yes, unfortunately some Israeli soldiers will fall. Hopefully as few as possible. It is weird that some people think one should voice no opinion unless one is directly fighting.

we need to step back and ponder, what actually can be accomplished and at what cost, because we know bombs and missiles don't stop insurgencies, they disrupt real militaries and their infrastructure to wage actual larger scale war. Defeating Hamas will require high-scale urban warfare, which will be very very bloody for Hamas, Palestinians, and Israeli soldiers.

That's why IDF should not rush into a ground operation. Urban warfare is dangerous. Especially since Hamas has an extensive network of tunnels. But it seems that IAF is targeting this network with air strikes. I saw one video on Mastodon, I wish I could find it again, of a building that collapsed after a missile strike. It was a very clear video, where the missile could be seen flying in, so I am sure there was a roof knock that alerted the camera guy to set up. The thing is, the missile hit to the side, not directly. I think the primary target was underground, probably part of the tunnel network.

Probably best to actually appreciate the realities of urban warfare before waxing on romantically about how others need to surge off onto the streets in slums against an unlabeled enemy. And that is before the civilian casualties start making the extremism movement grow.

There were many more civilian casualties in Germany and Japan in 1945. That did not lead to a protracted insurgency. The Palestinian population has choices. Either choose to continue to support genocidal terrorists, and suffer and die with them, or reject them and live long and prosper.

All your ideas were wrong. They've been proven wrong. The far-right leadership in Israel did this to Palestine to keep Israel safe. It didn't work. In fact, it made things worse. Far worse. And now you want to double down on this failed system of shitty far right decision making that is based on fantasies of ending insurgencies via brute force, a tactic that has NEVER worked without resorting to mass scale killing.

Israel gave a lot of concessions to Palestinians. Oslo accords, which eventually led to 2nd Intifada where many Israelis were murdered by terrorists. Gaza disengagement. Which led to Hamas takeover and rockets being fired. Every time Israel gives concessions to Palestinians, they use it to wage more terror against Israel.
It is not my ideas that are wrong. Appeasers are wrong. You can appease Deif, Hanniyeh, Sinwar et al no more than Chamberlain could appease Hitler.

 

[Derec]

BLM Chicago backs Palestine after Hamas terrorist invasion of Israel

Horrible, but hardly surprising.

 

[Derec]

I think that Trump has been and to a certain extent remains an asset for Putin and others.

Oh, please! At most he is a useful idiot. But then again, so are those on the left opposing pipelines and fracking, as that plays into the hands of Putin. Imagine how much easier time Putin would have pressuring western Europe had US cut 2/3 of our gas production and 1/2 of our oil production as Warren, Bernie, Harris, AOC et al wanted?
Europe was the main destination for U.S. LNG exports in 2022
What does this have to do with the war against genocidal maniacs running Gaza though?

It’s unwitting on Trump’s part. Most things are. Doesn’t make it less true.

It does. An asset is witting. A useful idiot is not.

Gaetz is simply a low rent Trump. The fact that Gaetz cannot look beyond the end of his own dick—all 2.5 inches of it—and what’s in his bank account would make him easier rather than more difficult to use. Unwittingly, of course.

Body shaming men with made-up claims about their genital anatomy? Really? I thought you were better than that, Toni. For shame!

I’m sorry their mothers didn’t love them or teach them right from wrong or keep them away from bad influences.

I still don't know what any of this post has to do with Gaza. Did you post it in the wrong thread?

 

[Derec]

In my view, the apology lacks sincerity. The initial message was both inappropriate and misguided. Whoever is responsible should be kept away from a keyboard, let alone managing that account.

Indeed. It was not an apology at all. More like digging in.

 

[Derec]

But yea, to echo what you said, there is no fucking excuse for what Hamas did. None. Russia has stolen Ukrainian land, raped their women, deliberately targeted civilians, targeted infrastructure, and etc. The Russian crimes in Ukraine have been brutal. However, if Ukranian troopers had invaded a Russian village: and then proceeded to behead babies in front of their moms; and raped women, tortured them, carting them while on a motorcycle, naked and yet alive; I'd be the first to say: no excuses. That's outrageous.

It is actually Putinist Russia that is like Hamas. Russia is wantonly attacking civilians. Russia thinks that Ukraine has no right to exist and that the border between Russia and Ukraine should be erased.

 

[Derec]

Meanwhile, the House is meeting behind closed doors to elect a new leader, without any press or any devices, without any public dissemination of the rules they will use to elect the next speaker. Who will be second in line for POTUS. Very fascist like.

It was not House chusing[sic] the Speaker, it was the Republican caucus meeting to choose their nominee for Speaker. Do such meetings usually occur in front of press and cameras?
Are internal party meetings really "fascist like"? I do not think that's the case at all!

 

[Tigers!]

And to go a little off topic of this particular post here, does anyone here think it is just a convenient coincidence that this attack by Hamas happened while our own House of Representatives is without an official leader? Which hamstrings US response?

No.
Unless the USA response was to bomb Gaza if Hamas farted.
You might be given the US a little too much credit when none is due.

Well, the opposite, actually. What I was trying to get at is do you think that Tuberville and his holding up of military promotions And Gaetz orchestrating the removal of the speaker of the house—seems like less like just a fortuitous coincidence and more like part of a plan.

I never subscribe to malice what stupidity can achieve. And your Houses of Parliament are very stupid over there it seems.

 

[Derec]

Or even that a Twitter account named BLMChicago doesn't mean there is an actual organization behind the account, especially in today's Twitter. And in this case it does appear there is nothing beyond a social media presence for whoever runs it.

There is also not any official BLM organization that speaks for everyone using the term. Anybody can and has named themselves some version of BLM.

There is an organization called BLM Chicago and nobody from it has distanced itself from these tweets/exes.
During the 2020 insurrection, they defended looting:
Black Lives Matter on Chicago Looting: Black Lives ‘More Important Than Downtown Corporations'

Members of the Black Lives Matter Chicago chapter issued a statement Monday on the looting and unrest that erupted in the city following what police said was misinformation regarding a police-involved shooting.
The group, which also held a solidarity rally on Monday night for those arrested, criticized the response from city leaders in wake of the unrest.[...]“I don’t care if someone decides to loot a Gucci or a Macy’s or a Nike store, because that makes sure that person eats,” Ariel Atkins, a BLM organizer, said.