Merged Gaza just launched an unprovoked attack on Israel

[Jimmy Higgins]

Israel thinks it as a right to the land because it was a Jewish state 2000 years, and the ends justify the means.

British pretty much created Israel after WW1 when they encouraged jewish immigration there.
And they did so because that was what they promised local jews rebelling against ottoman empire.
They promised the same to arabs everywhere including Palestine. basically they promised the same territory to two different people
Brilliant.

Now, I don't really understand why Israel against two state solution, at least in principle.
Palestine is de facto a state already, crappy one but state. Is it because Israel wants all territory to itself but afraid to articulate it clearly?

That is exactly why, though it isn't an issue of articulation. There is also the historic issue of the Arab states trying to fuck over Israel. The far right-wing think they have a birthright to it. But they can't just take it all, so they take it in little slivers.

Well, it will only get scarier as time goes by.

To be determined. Hamas' attack was particularly gruesome, which set things back a while. Iran is using relatively guarded language in support of the attack, which says even Iran thinks Hamas was/is el Loco.

 

[steve_bank]

Did you know the Kremlin leadership has been replaced by lizard

Dude, what I said is an accepted historical fact, Israel did create Hamas.
Same way US created what eventually became Al Qaeda.
In both cases, you thought religious fanatics could be useful.

Yes they created Hamas and other groups by their actions. That is not what yiu appeared to infer.

Just like Russia is creating a unfed Ukraine and global critiism. Putin's irrational actions cret anti Russian sentiments.

The actions of Russia through today is why NATO was formed and continues today. Russia created NATO as you would put it. The war has only strengthened NATO and caused Swedd and Norway to go from neutral to NATO,

By the way, are you paid in vodka for posting here?

 

[barbos]

That belongs in Freethought and Humor.

Your whole governments belong there.

 

[barbos]

Yes they created Hamas and other groups by their actions. That is not what yiu appeared to infer.

They literally created it to counter PLO, literally.
The same way US created "freedom" fighters in Afghanistan, again literally.

 

[barbos]

There is also the historic issue of the Arab states trying to fuck over Israel

Yes, because British promised that land to .... them. Well, not to them particularly but to arabs on that land.

To be determined.

Palestinian population growth is ridiculous compared to jewish.

 

[steve_bank]

Antisemitism did not end with the war in Europe. I think the Europeans probably thought good riddance to Jews leaving for Palestine.

I'd have to fact check myself. Jews at one point were trying to buy up land and the Brits put the kibosh on it. There was a weapons embargo. Jews deemed agitators were denied entry.

Jewish factions were fighting among themselves.

There is a great scene in the movie Exodus. Two Br tush soldiers are guarding a beach against Jewish immigrants. Jews are wading in from a boat. One says to the other 'I guees this is where we find out if we are bloody Nazis'.

What happens to Gaza now will define who Israelis are. Ukraine is bad, Gaza looks like hell on Earth. They have been under embargo for a long time. 2.5 million people in a small area with no escape. Shooting fish in a barrel.

Probably little known history today. Post war nan American Jewish officer was given an unofficial nod to got to Palestine. He organized Jews into a structured army.

There was a pro Israel movie in the 60s about him.

Mickey Marcus - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

David Daniel "Mickey" Marcus (22 February 1901 – 10 June 1948) was a United States Army colonel, later Israel's first General, who was a principal architect of the U.S. military's World War II civil affairs policies,[1][2] including the organization of the war crimes trials in Germany and in Japan.[1]

He assisted Israel during the 1948 Arab–Israeli War, one of the well known Israeli Machal soldiers, becoming Israel's first modern general[2][3] (Hebrew: Aluf). He was killed by friendly fire. He was portrayed by Kirk Douglas in the 1966 Hollywood movie Cast a Giant Shadow, which focused on his role in the Israeli war.[4]

 

[lpetrich]

It's hard to find a reputable source for Hamas's charter, but I think I have: Avalon Project - Documents in Law, History and Diplomacy

The Avalon Project : Hamas Covenant 1988

Hamas Covenant 1988
The Covenant of the Islamic Resistance Movement
18 August 1988

In The Name Of The Most Merciful Allah

...
"Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it" (The Martyr, Imam Hassan al-Banna, of blessed memory).

Doesn't seem very merciful to me.

In The Name Of The Most Merciful Allah

Introduction

Praise be unto Allah, to whom we resort for help, and whose forgiveness, guidance and support we seek; Allah bless the Prophet and grant him salvation, his companions and supporters, and to those who carried out his message and adopted his laws - everlasting prayers and salvation as long as the earth and heaven will last.

Then Article One:

The Islamic Resistance Movement: The Movement's programme is Islam. From it, it draws its ideas, ways of thinking and understanding of the universe, life and man. It resorts to it for judgement in all its conduct, and it is inspired by it for guidance of its steps.

 

[steve_bank]

Now that I think about it I vaguely remember something about a claim of Israeli involvement with Hamas.

Hamas - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Hamas is an acronym of the Arabic phrase حركة المقاومة الإسلامية or Ḥarakah al-Muqāwamah al-ʾIslāmiyyah, meaning "Islamic Resistance Movement". This acronym, HMS, was later glossed in the Hamas Covenant[62] by the Arabic word ḥamās (حماس) which itself means "zeal", "strength", or "bravery".[63] In Hebrew, there is a similar-sounding word, ḥāmās (חמס) connoting "violence", a phonetic resemblance that possibly helped further Israeli negative perceptions of the movement.[64]

Former military intelligence officer Shalom Harari said the warnings were ignored out of neglect, not a desire to fortify the Islamists: "Israel never financed Hamas. Israel never armed Hamas."

Hamas (UK: /hæˈmæs, ˈhæmæs/, US: /hɑːˈmɑːs, ˈhɑːmɑːs/; Arabic: حماس Ḥamās [ħaˈmaːs]),[34] officially the Islamic Resistance Movement (حركة المقاومة الإسلامية Ḥarakah al-Muqāwamah al-ʾIslāmiyyah), is a Sunni Islamist political and militant organization currently governing the Gaza Strip of the Palestinian territories.[35] While it is headquartered in Gaza City, it also has a presence in the West Bank (the larger of the two Palestinian territories), in which Fatah exercises control. It is widely considered to be the "dominant political force" within the Palestinian territories.[36][37][38]

In 1987, shortly after the outbreak of the First Intifada against Israel, Hamas was founded by Palestinian imam and activist Ahmed Yassin. It emerged out of Mujama al-Islamiya (also founded by Yassin), which had been established in Gaza in 1973 as a religious charity involved with the Egypt-based Muslim Brotherhood.[39] Hamas became increasingly involved in the Israeli–Palestinian conflict by the late 1990s;[40] it opposed the Israel–PLO Letters of Mutual Recognition as well as the Oslo Accords, which saw Hamas' secular rival Fatah renounce "the use of terrorism and other acts of violence" and recognize Israel in pursuit of a two-state solution. Hamas continued to advocate Palestinian armed resistance to end the Israeli occupation. Hamas won the 2006 Palestinian legislative election,[41] gaining a majority in the Palestinian Legislative Council,[42] and subsequently took control of Gaza Strip from Fatah in 2007.[43][44]

Since 2007, Hamas has fought several wars with Israel.[45] It historically sought an Islamic Palestinian state over the combined territory of Israel, the West Bank, and the Gaza Strip, rejecting the two-state solution and negotiations with Israel.[46][47] In 2017, Hamas agreed to a Palestinian state within the 1967 borders, but continued to not recognize Israel.[48][49][50] Under the ideological principles of Islamism, it promotes Palestinian nationalism in an Islamic context; it has pursued a policy of jihad (armed struggle) against Israel.[c] The Hamas government has pushed through changes that gave greater influence to Islamic law in the Gaza Strip. It has a social service wing, Dawah, and a military wing, the Izz ad-Din al-Qassam Brigades.[d][e]

Since the mid-1990s,[54] Hamas has gained popularity and support in Palestinian society, drawing support for its perceived lack of corruption and its anti-Israeli stance.[55][56] Many Western countries and their allies have designated Hamas as a terrorist organization, citing the militants' usage of human shields;[57][58] methods of hostage-taking of civilians; and history of violence against non-combatants, including massacres of civilian populations, suicide bombings, and indiscriminate rocket attacks on Israeli population centres.[59] However, a 2018 attempt to condemn Hamas for "acts of terror" at the United Nations failed.[f]

On October 7, 2023, Hamas launched a major armed campaign dubbed "Operation al-Aqsa Flood" against Israel. As part of the offensive, Hamas militants broke through the Gaza–Israel barrier; they massacred civilians, attacked Israeli military bases, and kidnapped civilians and soldiers.[36] The assault prompted an Israeli declaration of war and triggered combat throughout Israel and the Gaza Strip.[61]

 

[barbos]

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

That belongs in Freethought and Humor.

Your whole governments belong there.

You are thinking of Elsewhere.

 

[lpetrich]

Article Seven:

The Islamic Resistance Movement is one of the links in the chain of the struggle against the Zionist invaders. It goes back to 1939, to the emergence of the martyr Izz al-Din al Kissam and his brethren the fighters, members of Moslem Brotherhood. It goes on to reach out and become one with another chain that includes the struggle of the Palestinians and Moslem Brotherhood in the 1948 war and the Jihad operations of the Moslem Brotherhood in 1968 and after.

...
"The Day of Judgement will not come about until Moslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Moslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, (evidently a certain kind of tree) would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews." (related by al-Bukhari and Moslem).

That latter part is one of the Hadiths, a huge collection of sayings about Mohammed the Prophet of Islam. Some of them are rather anachronistic, like referring to the Sunni-Shia split, with some being pro-Sunni and some pro-Shia. It must be noted that many Muslims consider many of them to be doubtful or bogus.

Looking at it, it seems rather silly. Trees don't have anything close to nervous systems and stones are inanimate. But if they were sentient, would they care about this fight? If they could communicate to us by telepathy, what would they say? "We don't care about your stupid squabbles!"

 

[Toni]

And to go a little off topic of this particular post here, does anyone here think it is just a convenient coincidence that this attack by Hamas happened while our own House of Representatives is without an official leader? Which hamstrings US response?

No.
Unless the USA response was to bomb Gaza if Hamas farted.
You might be given the US a little too much credit when none is due.

Well, the opposite, actually. What I was trying to get at is do you think that Tuberville and his holding up of military promotions And Gaetz orchestrating the removal of the speaker of the house—seems like less like just a fortuitous coincidence and more like part of a plan.

 

[lpetrich]

Article Eight:
"Allah is its target, the Prophet is its model, the Koran its constitution: Jihad is its path and death for the sake of Allah is the loftiest of its wishes."

Article Eleven:

The Islamic Resistance Movement believes that the land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf consecrated for future Moslem generations until Judgement Day. It, or any part of it, should not be squandered: it, or any part of it, should not be given up. Neither a single Arab country nor all Arab countries, neither any king or president, nor all the kings and presidents, neither any organization nor all of them, be they Palestinian or Arab, possess the right to do that. Palestine is an Islamic Waqf land consecrated for Moslem generations until Judgement Day. This being so, who could claim to have the right to represent Moslem generations till Judgement Day?

This is the law governing the land of Palestine in the Islamic Sharia (law) and the same goes for any land the Moslems have conquered by force, because during the times of (Islamic) conquests, the Moslems consecrated these lands to Moslem generations till the Day of Judgement.

There are Xian Palestinians also. How will they fit in?

 Waqf - "A waqf also called a ḥabs or mortmain property, is an inalienable charitable endowment under Islamic law."

Article Thirteen:

Initiatives, and so-called peaceful solutions and international conferences, are in contradiction to the principles of the Islamic Resistance Movement. Abusing any part of Palestine is abuse directed against part of religion. Nationalism of the Islamic Resistance Movement is part of its religion. Its members have been fed on that. For the sake of hoisting the banner of Allah over their homeland they fight. "Allah will be prominent, but most people do not know."

Now and then the call goes out for the convening of an international conference to look for ways of solving the (Palestinian) question. Some accept, others reject the idea, for this or other reason, with one stipulation or more for consent to convening the conference and participating in it. Knowing the parties constituting the conference, their past and present attitudes towards Moslem problems, the Islamic Resistance Movement does not consider these conferences capable of realising the demands, restoring the rights or doing justice to the oppressed. These conferences are only ways of setting the infidels in the land of the Moslems as arbitraters. When did the infidels do justice to the believers?

So much for a negotiated solution. It's like Hamas wants nothing short of a military victory.

Article Fifteen:

The day that enemies usurp part of Moslem land, Jihad becomes the individual duty of every Moslem. In face of the Jews' usurpation of Palestine, it is compulsory that the banner of Jihad be raised. To do this requires the diffusion of Islamic consciousness among the masses, both on the regional, Arab and Islamic levels. It is necessary to instill the spirit of Jihad in the heart of the nation so that they would confront the enemies and join the ranks of the fighters.

 

[TomC]

So much for a negotiated solution. It's like Hamas wants nothing short of a military victory.

Good bit of umbrage when I phrased that as "We will drive them into the sea."
Tom

 

[lpetrich]

Then how Hamas is to treat other movements.

Article Twenty-three:

The Islamic Resistance Movement views other Islamic movements with respect and appreciation. If it were at variance with them on one point or opinion, it is in agreement with them on other points and understandings. It considers these movements, if they reveal good intentions and dedication to Allah, that they fall into the category of those who are trying hard since they act within the Islamic circle. Each active person has his share.

About nationalist movements:

Article Twenty-five:

The Islamic Resistance Movement respects these movements and appreciates their circumstances and the conditions surrounding and affecting them. It encourages them as long as they do not give their allegiance to the Communist East or the Crusading West. It confirms to all those who are integrated in it, or sympathetic towards it, that the Islamic Resistance Movement is a fighting movement that has a moral and enlightened look of life and the way it should cooperate with the other (movements). It detests opportunism and desires only the good of people, individuals and groups alike. It does not seek material gains, personal fame, nor does it look for a reward from others. It works with its own resources and whatever is at its disposal "and prepare for them whatever force you can", for the fulfilment of the duty, and the earning of Allah's favour. It has no other desire than that.

Article Twenty-Seven:

The Palestinian Liberation Organization is the closest to the heart of the Islamic Resistance Movement. It contains the father and the brother, the next of kin and the friend. The Moslem does not estrange himself from his father, brother, next of kin or friend. Our homeland is one, our situation is one, our fate is one and the enemy is a joint enemy to all of us.

Article Twenty-Eight:

The Zionist invasion is a vicious invasion. It does not refrain from resorting to all methods, using all evil and contemptible ways to achieve its end. It relies greatly in its infiltration and espionage operations on the secret organizations it gave rise to, such as the Freemasons, The Rotary and Lions clubs, and other sabotage groups. All these organizations, whether secret or open, work in the interest of Zionism and according to its instructions. They aim at undermining societies, destroying values, corrupting consciences, deteriorating character and annihilating Islam. It is behind the drug trade and alcoholism in all its kinds so as to facilitate its control and expansion.

Conspiracy-mongering about now-obscure social clubs.

 

[lpetrich]

Article Thirty-one:

The Islamic Resistance Movement is a humanistic movement. It takes care of human rights and is guided by Islamic tolerance when dealing with the followers of other religions. It does not antagonize anyone of them except if it is antagonized by it or stands in its way to hamper its moves and waste its efforts.

Under the wing of Islam, it is possible for the followers of the three religions - Islam, Christianity and Judaism - to coexist in peace and quiet with each other. Peace and quiet would not be possible except under the wing of Islam. Past and present history are the best witness to that.

It is the duty of the followers of other religions to stop disputing the sovereignty of Islam in this region, because the day these followers should take over there will be nothing but carnage, displacement and terror. Everyone of them is at variance with his fellow-religionists, not to speak about followers of other religionists. Past and present history are full of examples to prove this fact.

So it's good for fellow Abrahamic believers to be ruled by Muslims.

Article Thirty-two:

World Zionism, together with imperialistic powers, try through a studied plan and an intelligent strategy to remove one Arab state after another from the circle of struggle against Zionism, in order to have it finally face the Palestinian people only. Egypt was, to a great extent, removed from the circle of the struggle, through the treacherous Camp David Agreement. They are trying to draw other Arab countries into similar agreements and to bring them outside the circle of struggle.

Grumbling about Arabs making peace with Israel.

 

[Derec]

Hamas (aka "Islamic Resistance Movement") bragging about turning water pipes into rockets.

 

[lpetrich]

Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez on X: "I believe deeply that the majority of people of all kinds do not want to see Gaza leveled and innocents killed, & that they feel and hold the pain of Israeli families destroyed.
We must build on our solidarity and common humanity to stop an atrocity in the making. End the cycle." / X

Ali Velshi on X: "Israeli Energy Minister Katz says “No electrical switch will be turned on, no water hydrant will be opened and no fuel truck will enter until the Israeli abductees are returned home”" / X
then
Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez on X: "This is collective punishment and a violation of international law.
We cannot starve nearly a million children to death over the horrific actions of Hamas, whose disregard for Israeli, Palestinian, and human life overall could not be more clear.
We must draw a line." / X

She then retweeted
American Jewish Committee on X: "
Hamas ≠ All Palestinians
Hamas ≠ All Arabs
Hamas ≠ All Muslims
Those who favor peace and preserving life will stand against Hamas. (pic link)" / X

THIS WAR IS NOT ABOUT:

JEWS VS. ARABS
ISLAM VS. THE WEST
ISRAELIS VS. PALESTINIANS

IT IS ABOUT DEFEATING THE SHEER EVIL OF HAMAS.

Although I agree with AOC's overall position, I don't quite like the framing of it. I'd prefer something like "Don't imitate Hamas".

 

[bilby]

I don't think that the west could have made peace with the Nazis during WW2 or with Hamas today.

True but lets clarify something. Nazis were the result of a bunch of Europeans waving a magic wand and starting shit with other nations. Hamas is the result of a people being mistreated over a significant amount of time. Big difference.

Nazis were a direct result of Germans being mistreated by the Great War victors. It only took twenty years for that mistreatment to manifest as massive violence, but I am not convinced that the amount of time involved is as big a difference as you're implying.

The fact is that no conflict in history has been a consequence of the instigators of violence having been treated too kindly by their immediate victims. And no long-term solution has ever been achieved by excessive violence in retaliation, or by harshly crushing any dissenting voices in an occupied or defeated land.

The use of overwhelming force to punish the perpetrators of violence is utterly ineffective when the actors are collectives such as nations, regions, or ethnicities. If you attempt it, you just get more and more violence in response. If you're prepared to spend vast amounts of money and effort, you can keep the lid on for a couple of generations; But eventually, it's all going to go to shit.

History tells us that the only way to achieve peace is to be kind to the enemy. The Marshall Plan was incredibly effective in creating peace in Europe. And massively cheaper and easier than an indefinite military occupation would have been.

There's a reason why today, the EU and NATO dominate not just Western, but also Central and Eastern Europe; While the Warsaw Pact is in the dustbin of history, and the sad remnants of the former Soviet Union is actively at war with itself in a number of places.

One side tried to crush any opposition with military force; The other side provided their foes with infrastructure, employment, and wealth, until they stopped being foes.

Israel might be able to use overwhelming military power, with the backing of the US, to force the lid back on today; But unless they follow that up with a mini-Marshall plan to turn Gaza and the West Bank into wealthy and prosperous regions whose populations have reasons to view Israel as benefactors rather than as an occupying enemy force, it's just going to kick off again in a decade or two.

 

[laughing dog]

So much for a negotiated solution. It's like Hamas wants nothing short of a military victory.

Good bit of umbrage when I phrased that as "We will drive them into the sea."
Tom

You made a claim about a direct quote that you refused to authenticate. "We will drive them into the sea" is not remotely the same as "a military victory" to anyone with a modicum of literacy and reasoning ability.