Merged Gaza just launched an unprovoked attack on Israel

[GenesisNemesis]

First of all, there is no "genocide". Second, the 40k figure comes from Hamas itself, and not even they are claiming that all the dead are civilians. ~20k fighters belonging to Hamas and other allied terror groups such as Islamic Jihad have been killed since Gaza attacked Israel on 10/7.

So the other 20k are civilians? What makes it OK to kill 20k civilians?

 

[Derec]

So the other 20k are civilians? What makes it OK to kill 20k civilians?

War is hell. Civilians die in wars. Many German civilians died in WWII, especially toward the end. That does not make it "genocide" or even morally wrong.

This war was started by Gaza when they invaded Israel and brutally murdered >1000 people and took hundreds of others hostage.
Next time, I suggest they do not do that. Germany learned. Will Palestinians ever follow suit?

 

[GenesisNemesis]

War is hell. Civilians die in wars. Many German civilians died in WWII, especially toward the end. That does not make it "genocide" or even morally wrong.

Next time, I suggest Gaza does not start a war by invading Israel and brutally murdering people and taking others hostage.

You're already saying killing in war isn't right or wrong though. So by your own argument it isn't necessarily wrong for Hamas to start a war and kill people.

 

[Derec]

You're already saying killing in war isn't right or wrong though. So by your own argument it isn't necessarily wrong for Hamas to start a war and kill people.

Reading comprehension fail. There is a huge difference between a war of aggression and a defensive war. Why is that so hard to comprehend?

Islamofascist Gaza and Nazi Germany both started wars of aggression. All civilian deaths are on them, not on countries defending themselves from that aggression.

 

[GenesisNemesis]

You're already saying killing in war isn't right or wrong though. So by your own argument it isn't necessarily wrong for Hamas to start a war and kill people.

There is a huge difference between a war of aggression and a defensive war. Why is that so hard to comprehend?

Islamofascist Gaza and Nazi Germany both started wars of aggression. All civilian deaths are on them, not on countries defending themselves from that aggression.

I'm using your own words. You said war is hell, civilians die. Why is it wrong in one case but not the other?

 

[Derec]

I'm using your own words. You said war is hell, civilians die. Why is it wrong in one case but not the other?

You are either misunderstanding or misconstruing my words.
The difference is that one side started the war and the other is defending itself. Why is that so hard to comprehend? Is it because of the double standards the Ilk has about Israel?

 

[GenesisNemesis]

I'm using your own words. You said war is hell, civilians die. Why is it wrong in one case but not the other?

You are either misunderstanding or misconstruing my words.
The difference is that one side started the war and the other is defending itself. Why is that so hard to comprehend? Is it because of the double standards the Ilk has about Israel?

Lmao dude, you made a general statement about war itself. You said "war is hell", what's so hard to comprehend about that?

 

[Derec]

Lmao dude, you made a general statement about war itself. You said "war is hell", what's so hard to comprehend about that?

You tell me. You are the one having difficulties comprehending fairly simple concepts.

 

[GenesisNemesis]

Lmao dude, you made a general statement about war itself. You said "war is hell", what's so hard to comprehend about that?

You tell me. You are the one having difficulties comprehending fairly simple concepts.

Like how you don't understand the simple concept that such moral righteousness you're displaying is unwarranted, when the concept of right or wrong isn't even being considered by you.

 

[laughing dog]

I'm using your own words. You said war is hell, civilians die. Why is it wrong in one case but not the other?

You are either misunderstanding or misconstruing my words.
The difference is that one side started the war and the other is defending itself. Why is that so hard to comprehend? Is it because of the double standards the Ilk has about Israel?

Yes, it is about the double standards of your ilk has about Israel: killing civilians is wrong when they are Israeli but okay when they are not.

 

[pood]

So the other 20k are civilians? What makes it OK to kill 20k civilians?

War is hell. Civilians die in wars. Many German civilians died in WWII, especially toward the end. That does not make it "genocide" or even morally wrong.

This war was started by Gaza when they invaded Israel and brutally murdered >1000 people and took hundreds of others hostage.
Next time, I suggest they do not do that. Germany learned. Will Palestinians ever follow suit?

God, I should avoid this thread. My blood pressure just skyrockets when I read such bullshit

THE WAR WAS NOT STARTED BY GAZA OR BY THE PALESTINIANS. It was started by HAMAS. THEY ARE NOT THE SAME THING.

Got that?

The Palestinians don’t have to learn anything. Israel has to learn to stop treating the Palestinians the way Nazi Germany treated the Jews.

 

[pood]

Looks like the Israeli public is fed up with this abysmal war and with Netanyahu, too.

The war is an utter failure. Not only is it genocide, it is unutterably stupid. The NY Times recently reported that Hamas is stronger than ever in Gaza. Not only will Israel fail to eradicate Hamas, by its horrific actions it will breed the next generation of Hamas terrorists. Well played, Netanyahu! One can only hope you will soon be occupying a dock at the Hague.

 

[Derec]

God, I should avoid this thread. My blood pressure just skyrockets when I read such bullshit

Sorry for that.

THE WAR WAS NOT STARTED BY GAZA OR BY THE PALESTINIANS. It was started by HAMAS. THEY ARE NOT THE SAME THING.

Hamas is a Palestinian group. It is not some foreign entity.

Your objection is like saying that it was not Germany that attacked Poland, it was NSDAP.

The Palestinians don’t have to learn anything.

Yes, they do. They need to reject Hamas, Islamic Jihad et al and to stop attacking Israel like they did on 10/7.

Israel has to learn to stop treating the Palestinians the way Nazi Germany treated the Jews.

They don't.

 

[Tigers!]

So the other 20k are civilians? What makes it OK to kill 20k civilians?

War is hell. Civilians die in wars. Many German civilians died in WWII, especially toward the end. That does not make it "genocide" or even morally wrong.

This war was started by Gaza when they invaded Israel and brutally murdered >1000 people and took hundreds of others hostage.
Next time, I suggest they do not do that. Germany learned. Will Palestinians ever follow suit?

God, I should avoid this thread. My blood pressure just skyrockets when I read such bullshit

THE WAR WAS NOT STARTED BY GAZA OR BY THE PALESTINIANS. It was started by HAMAS. THEY ARE NOT THE SAME THING.

WW2 was started by Hitler. The Allies were fighting Germany (and Hitler). It's a distinction that unfortunately is impossible to keep separate.

Got that?

The Palestinians don’t have to learn anything. Israel has to learn to stop treating the Palestinians the way Nazi Germany treated the Jews.

Í must have missed the location of the Jewish equivalent of Belsen or Auschwitz. Could you tell me where they are?

 

[Derec]

Looks like the Israeli public is fed up with this abysmal war and with Netanyahu, too.

The proposed "solution" of the protesters, to cave to Hamas' demands, is abysmally stupid.

The war is an utter failure. Not only is it genocide, it is unutterably stupid.

It is not genocide, and it is not a failure either. Some hostages were freed, and many Hamas/Islamic Jihad fighters have been killed or wounded.
Much, and by now probably most, of terror infrastructure, including tunnels, has been dismantled. Those are successes.

The NY Times recently reported that Hamas is stronger than ever in Gaza.

Link? I very much doubt NYT wrote that, because it would be stupid. ~20k of terror fighters (mostly Hamas, but also Islamic Jihad etc.) have been killed. Others have been wounded and many of those are hurt seriously enough to not be able to engage in combat any more. So let's say ~30k taken out. That's about half of the pre-war combat strength of Gaza terrorists. Many senior commanders have been eliminated, including top leaders like Mohammed Deif and Marwan Issa. And Hamas failed in its goal of freeing terrorists languishing in Israeli prisons.

Not only will Israel fail to eradicate Hamas, by its horrific actions it will breed the next generation of Hamas terrorists.

Whether Israel will eradicate Hamas remains to be seen. If Israel listens to the protesters, then yes, the goal of eradicating Hamas will fail. Which is a reason not to listen to them.
As far as "breeding the next generation of Hamas terrorists", that generation will have been bred anyway. There has been strong indoctrination of Gazan children against Israel, including via UNRWA schools.
UN Teachers Call To Murder Jews, Reveals New Report

Note also that a significant fraction (>10%) of male military age population had already been recruited into Hamas and other groups as fighters. That means that there isn't much room to recruit more capable and willing recruits no matter what.

Well played, Netanyahu! One can only hope you will soon be occupying a dock at the Hague.

Do you feel the same about Palestinian leadership? Or just Israeli?
And how would you have responded to 10/7?

In any case, eliminating Hamas is necessary for rebuilding Gaza to be meaningful at all. It will take ~20 years and ~$100G to rebuild Gaza. But what if Hamas is still in power? First of all, they would focus on rearming and rebuilding their terror capabilities (such as redigging tunnels) and not on civilian infrastructure or housing. So it would be irresponsible to give them a sheckel, much less billions of dollars.
Second, if they are still in charge, they will continue attacking Israel. Which means Israel will defend itself, causing more destruction in Gaza.

No, there is no viable solution for Gaza other than regime change. Keeping Hamas means endless war.

Hamas Official Ghazi Hamad: We Will Repeat The October 7 Attack, Time And Again, Until Israel Is Annihilated; We Are Victims – Everything We Do Is Justified

The protesters are too shortsighted to see this.

 

[laughing dog]

I am sure the irony of “We are victims. Everything we do is justified.” is list on that Hamas official and on Derec.

 

[Derec]

I am sure the irony of “We are victims. Everything we do is justified.” is list on that Hamas official and on Derec.

It's not irony. It's "reverse victim and offender" tactic by Hamas and the useful idiots in the West that lap up the Hamas propaganda.

 

[laughing dog]

I am sure the irony of “We are victims. Everything we do is justified.” is list on that Hamas official and on Derec.

It's not irony. It's "reverse victim and offender" tactic by Hamas and the useful idiots in the West that lap up the Hamas propaganda.

I was right. The irony is lost on you. It is the defense of Israel from your ilk.

 

[GenesisNemesis]

I am sure the irony of “We are victims. Everything we do is justified.” is list on that Hamas official and on Derec.

It's not irony. It's "reverse victim and offender" tactic by Hamas and the useful idiots in the West that lap up the Hamas propaganda.

It's literally basic fucking logic [removed]. By the way, I'm for minimizing casualties on both sides. [removed]

 

[steve_bank]

Not America's finest day in morality.

Why?

It has spread to the West Bank.

There have been restive places in the so-called West Bank for a long time. Remember the 2nd Intifada? Jenin was one of the hotbeds even then.

Some Israelis acknowledge the root cause of the violence is Israel's treatment of Palestinians.

No, the root cause is that many (most?) Palestinians want to destroy Israel and take all the land for themselves.

Others see on Palestinians. From multiple reports from Israel Palestinians have long been dehumanized by Israelis, they are savages'. Not much different than Nazi dehumanization of Jews.

Bullshit.

I have nothing against any particular Jew, but I reject Israel as a nation. Iran is right, we apply a double standard to Israel.

There is a double standard with Israel, but the other way around. Israel is condemned for doing things no other country would be condemned for in similar circumstances. How would US react if 40,000 (i.e. the 1,200 murdered on 10/7 adjusted for population size) of our people were brutally massacred (and thousands taken hostage) by an islamofacist terrorist group who wants to eliminate the US and replace it with an Islamic state they run? It would probably make what is happening in Gaza look like a minor inconvenience.
Besides, the theocratic regime in Tehran is never right, especially not in their statements about Israel.

Israel has used up its 'get out of jail free card' from the Holocaust. They are well past plaving the victim.

They do not need a special card. Just elimination of all the antisemitic cards that hold Israel to a different standard than other countries would be. Do you have a problem with Ukraine defending itself against an enemy that brutally attacked it, an enemy that thinks Ukraine has no right to exist and that Ukrainian territory should belong to it? Then why do you have a problem with Israel defending itself against a similar enemy?

The Israeli propaganda ads over here are disgusting to me.
Anti-israel propaganda is what is disgusting.
Why?

Iran is right, we have a double standard. Israel has terrorized Palestinians form the founding of Israel. Israel seized land without compensation and did not allow return after the lines settled. The basis of the conflict is how Israel formed and how it acted since then.

Without provocation Israel joined Europeans in the war over the Suez Canal with Egypt. Israel is way past playing the innocent victim.There are reasons why the Arabs wanted o attack Isreal, Isreal was niot an inocent victim. They were miltaristc from tyhe start abd bgan a nucear wepons progam in the 40s.

In keeping with these plans, Israeli forces attacked across Egypt's Sinai Peninsula on October 29, 1956, advancing to within 10 miles of the Suez Canal. Under the pretext of protecting the Canal from the two belligerents, Britain and France landed troops of their own a few days later.

We have given Israel abuses a pass because of American politics and region. Israel has a successful perognda prgorgam to court Christins in America.

The UN has documented a slow motion cultural genocide in the West Bank, displacement of Palestinians to make room for Jewish settlers. It is not like Israel denies it, they justify it. Jerusalem was s suposed to be an open city.

On camera Netanyahu said plainly god gave the land to Jews they have a right to it. Jerusalem was a center 2000 years ago so it is theirs today. Same kind of reasoning Putin uses to justify war on Ukraine.

I used to take a pragmatic view. Israel is a state with international recognition withj a few exceptions and is not gouing away. Both sides have valid issues. Isreral formng a state by force was undertsndable post WWII.

With the war we see the true nature of Israel. No emtpathy, compassion, or tolerance. From reporting with wexceptions in Israel.

In the run up to the declaration of Israel Jews did just what Palestinians do today. They ran weapons embargo. They used terrorism.

Our foreign policy has always been realpolitik, not moral. We support an abysmal Saudi Arabia and condemn Iran.

In the Cold War dictators who were anti communist were our friends. Chiang Kai Sshek in Taiwan.

Way back when I joined the forum I did readng on Isreal and what led to it. It is not a simple blackk and white issue, it goes back centuries. It is not for me to judgee what Jews did to form Israel.

But we can lkook at how Isreal acted from its founding. It uis not an innocent victim.