Merged Gaza just launched an unprovoked attack on Israel

[Derec]

Derec's position seems to be that it's necessary to break eggs to make an omelet, that the end justifies the means.

And your position seems to be that Israel should not be allowed to defend itself if that endangers any Palestinian civilians. On the other hand, Hamas can use whatever tactics it wants to try to destroy Israel.

 

[TomC]

Derec's position seems to be that it's necessary to break eggs to make an omelet, that the end justifies the means.

That isn't just Derec's position.

It is also the position of everyone from Hamas to Trump.

Hamas launched a battle last week. The Palestinians knew perfectly well that it would result in mass civilian casualties. That's why they did it.

They got their way, again, and now everything is going to shit.
Tom

 

[laughing dog]

Derec's position seems to be that it's necessary to break eggs to make an omelet, that the end justifies the means.

And your position seems to be that Israel should not be allowed to defend itself if that endangers any Palestinian civilians. On the other hand, Hamas can use whatever tactics it wants to try to destroy Israel.

That is one of the more ridiculous straw men you’ve pulled out of the air.

Whenever you use “ shit happens in war” to excuse the deaths of civilians, that is an implicit use of the “ ends justify the means”. Pointing that out does not mean Israel cannot defend itself.

 

[laughing dog]

Derec's position seems to be that it's necessary to break eggs to make an omelet, that the end justifies the means.

That isn't just Derec's position.

It is also the position of everyone from Hamas to Trump.

Hamas launched a battle last week. The Palestinians knew perfectly well that it would result in mass civilian casualties. That's why they did it.

They got their way, again, and now everything is going to shit.
Tom

Why would anyone conflate a terrorist group (Hamas) with an entire population group ( the Palestinians) ?

 

[TomC]

Whenever you use “ shit happens in war” to excuse the deaths of civilians, that is an implicit use of the “ ends justify the means”.

That's how Palestinian supporters justified all the military assaults and intifadas, isn't it?
Tom

 

[TomC]

Derec's position seems to be that it's necessary to break eggs to make an omelet, that the end justifies the means.

That isn't just Derec's position.

It is also the position of everyone from Hamas to Trump.

Hamas launched a battle last week. The Palestinians knew perfectly well that it would result in mass civilian casualties. That's why they did it.

They got their way, again, and now everything is going to shit.
Tom

Why would anyone conflate a terrorist group (Hamas) with an entire population group ( the Palestinians) ?

Because the "entire population group" could change things in the government if they choose to try.
But they don't.
Because they are fine with death and destruction as long as it's done Muslim style.

Give me a reason to think the Palestinian people are opposed to Hamas military policies.
Tom

 

[pood]

Yes go ahead and show that the children killed so far in Palestine are teenage fighters for Hamas.

I did not say all of them are. Obviously there is collateral damage in any military action, and especially when your enemy does not follow the laws of war and launches missiles from residential areas for example.
I was merely pointing out that you cannot assume that all the minors killed or injured were innocent civilians just because they are under 18.

I did not assume that. However, the most parsimonious assumption is that most of those children killed, and probably all, were innocents, and not underage Hamas fighters, since Israeli missiles and bombs have no ability to target specified people, such as, you know, underage Hamas fighters.

You can’t do that, and you know it.

Neither can you say the opposite, given that the data is very insufficient. The label "children" to refer to anyone under 18 is incredibly manipulative though since we know Hamas and Islamic Jihad use underage fighters.

See above. The most parsimonious assumption.

Do you think Israel is omniscient?

Nobody claimed that, so stop with the straw men.

I didn’t set up a straw man. I asked you a question. Since you now admit Israel is not omniscient, you admit they have no ability to target their bombs and missiles specifically in such a way as to avoid killing innocent people, including a great many innocent children.

It’s such BS. Innocents are getting slughtered right and left by Israel right now and far more such deaths are to come.

It is Palestinians that have slughtered[sic] >1000 Israelis on 10/7.

I know how to spell ”slaughtered,” thank you very much. Typos happen sometimes. Just like, I guess, shit happens to innocent Palestinians at the hands of Israel, amirite?

But to address the main point, and I will make this very big for you, COLLECTIVE PUNISHMENT IS A WAR CRIME. So it is a war crime for Israel to indiscriminately slaughter civilians, including many children, in response to the Hamas atrocity of 10/7.

And one more thing about Palestinian casualties. Hamas has launched 1000s of rockets against Israel. Many of those fall short and land in Israel. That means that many Palestinian casualties in Gaza are actually from Hamas rockets, not IDF missiles.
Misfired rockets may have killed over a dozen in Gaza battle
This is from last year, when a much smaller total number of rockets was launched. But one can easily extrapolate to the current situation.

Large number of Palestinians are now dead, and far worse is to come. Prove that ANY of those dead so far is from Hamas rockets. Even if some are, the rockets are only being fired because of Israeli attacks.

The forcible relocation of 1.2 million Palestinians under Israeli duress is itself a clear war crime.

It's not a "forcible relocation". It's merely saying that civilians should evacuate the north of the Strip because of upcoming ground action there. There is nothing in that order that implies a permanent relocation or that the population would not be allowed to return after the end of the operation.

Of course it is a forcible relocation, and it doesn’t even matter whether Israel allows these people to return, if in fact they do. Return to what? One Israeli general is on record as saying that part of the IDF mission is to raze Gaza City to the ground — every single building, he said. He said Gaza would become “a tent city.” Regardless of whether that is Israel’s intention or not, cutting off water and power to Gaza and forcing 1.2 million to flee has already precpitated a massive humanitarian catastrophe and that is pre-eminently a war crime.

And remember, none of this would have happened had Hamas not committed its genocidal massacre against Israeli civilians on 10/7. Everything that happened over this past week, and everything that is to happen in the weeks to come, is the direct result of the so-called "Al Aqsa Flood", as the terrorist call their massacre.

And here again you are endorsing a war crime — COLLECTIVE PUNISHMENT.

 

[laughing dog]

Derec's position seems to be that it's necessary to break eggs to make an omelet, that the end justifies the means.

That isn't just Derec's position.

It is also the position of everyone from Hamas to Trump.

Hamas launched a battle last week. The Palestinians knew perfectly well that it would result in mass civilian casualties. That's why they did it.

They got their way, again, and now everything is going to shit.
Tom

Why would anyone conflate a terrorist group (Hamas) with an entire population group ( the Palestinians) ?

Because the "entire population group" could change things in the government if they choose to try.
But they don't.
Because they are fine with death and destruction as long as it's done Muslim style.

It is pretty easy to react instead of think when using a broad brush. Makes life easier even if it makes appear more like an ignorant bigot than a reasoning human being

Give me a reason to think the Palestinian people are opposed to Hamas military policies.
Tom

Apparently you are unaware that there are two Palestinian gov’ts. One in Gaza run by Hamas and one in the West Bank run by the PLO which is not at war with Israel.

 

[TomC]

COLLECTIVE PUNISHMENT IS A WAR CRIME.

Does that apply to Palestinians?
Tom

 

[laughing dog]

Whenever you use “ shit happens in war” to excuse the deaths of civilians, that is an implicit use of the “ ends justify the means”.

That's how Palestinian supporters justified all the military assaults and intifadas, isn't it?
Tom

No doubt. Feel better you got a “whataboutism” in

 

[TomC]

No doubt. So what?

So hypocrisy.
Palestinian fighters target civilians. Oh well.
Israeli fighters try to avoid civilians, but some get killed. That's a crime against humanity.

Tom

 

[pood]

COLLECTIVE PUNISHMENT IS A WAR CRIME.

Does that apply to Palestinians?
Tom

Of course it does. Your point?

 

[pood]

No doubt. So what?

So hypocrisy.
Palestinian fighters target civilians. Oh well.

Oh, really? Somebody here said, “Oh well” about the 10/7 Hamas atrocity? Who was that?

Israeli fighters try to avoid civilians, but some get killed. That's a crime against humanity.

Tom

The idea that Israel “tries” to avoid civilians is to laugh, to put it mildly.

 

[pood]

Derec's position seems to be that it's necessary to break eggs to make an omelet, that the end justifies the means.

Give me a reason to think the Palestinian people are opposed to Hamas military policies.
Tom

This, for starters.

 

[laughing dog]

No doubt. So what?

So hypocrisy.
Palestinian fighters target civilians. Oh well.
Israeli fighters try to avoid civilians, but some get killed. That's a crime against humanity.

Tom

When the IDF “avoids “ injuring and killing civilians they usually end up injuring more people than Hamas does.

 

[lpetrich]

Hamas launched a battle last week. The Palestinians knew perfectly well that it would result in mass civilian casualties. That's why they did it.

Then one should deny Hamas those casualties, even if it means leaving Hamas in place in the Gaza Strip.

 

[TomC]

Then one should deny Hamas those casualties,

What does that mean?
Tom

 

[Rhea]

Then one should deny Hamas those casualties,

What does that mean?
Tom

I think it means, don’t let the pig goad you into getting into the mud with the pig.

 

[lpetrich]

Then one should deny Hamas those casualties,

What does that mean?
Tom

I think it means, don’t let the pig goad you into getting into the mud with the pig.

That's what I meant.

 

[ZiprHead]

Principles of Just-War Theory

From St. Thomas Aquinas

1. Last Resort

A just war can only be waged after all peaceful options are considered.
The use of force can only be used as a last resort.

2. Legitimate Authority

A just war is waged by a legitimate authority. A war cannot be waged by
individuals or groups that do not constitute the legitimate government.

3. Just Cause

A just war needs to be in response to a wrong suffered. Self-defense
against an attack always constitutes a just war; however, the war needs to
be fought with the objective to correct the inflicted wound.

4. Probability of Success

In order for a war to be just, there must be a rational possibility of
success. A nation cannot enter into a war with a hopeless cause.

5. Right Intention

The primary objective of a just war is to re-establish peace. In particular,
the peace after the war should exceed the peace that would have
succeeded without the use of force. The aim of the use of force must be
justice.

6. Proportionality

The violence in a just war must be proportional to the casualties suffered.
The nations involved in the war must avoid disproportionate military
action and only use the amount of force absolutely necessary.

7. Civilian Casualties

The use of force must distinguish between the militia and civilians.
Innocent citizens must never be the target of war; soldiers should always
avoid killing civilians. The deaths of civilians are only justified when they
are unavoidable victims of a military attack on a strategic target.