Merged Gaza just launched an unprovoked attack on Israel

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/24/middleeast/israel-hostages-freed-lifshitz-cooper-intl-hnk/index.html

‘I went through hell:’ Released Hamas hostage describes being kidnapped and taken into tunnel system​

While I do not in the least think this justifies anything at all by Hamas, I do think this is an interesting nuance to the story that I had not yet heard:

Lifshitz also accused the Israel Defense Forces and Shin Bet intelligence service of not taking threats from Hamas “seriously” and said the costly Gaza border fence erected by Israel had done nothing to protect her community from Hamas’ attack.

“The lack of awareness by Shin Bet and the IDF hurt us a lot,” she stressed. “They warned us three weeks beforehand, they burned fields, they sent fire balloons and the IDF did not treat it seriously,” she continued.

Another interesting thing is that the hostages might be in the tunnels. Certainly, some of them were in the tunnels and this is below the north or at least not in the south. So if ground troops go in, presumably they'd do some urban warfare and then invade the tunnels. But if there is major bombing by both sides, the tunnels could be destroyed in the process.

Huh? Burned fields and fire balloons are a warning? No, they are just business as usual from Hamas.

https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/24/middleeast/israel-hostages-freed-lifshitz-cooper-intl-hnk/index.html

‘I went through hell:’ Released Hamas hostage describes being kidnapped and taken into tunnel system​

While I do not in the least think this justifies anything at all by Hamas, I do think this is an interesting nuance to the story that I had not yet heard:

Lifshitz also accused the Israel Defense Forces and Shin Bet intelligence service of not taking threats from Hamas “seriously” and said the costly Gaza border fence erected by Israel had done nothing to protect her community from Hamas’ attack.

“The lack of awareness by Shin Bet and the IDF hurt us a lot,” she stressed. “They warned us three weeks beforehand, they burned fields, they sent fire balloons and the IDF did not treat it seriously,” she continued.

Another interesting thing is that the hostages might be in the tunnels. Certainly, some of them were in the tunnels and this is below the north or at least not in the south. So if ground troops go in, presumably they'd do some urban warfare and then invade the tunnels. But if there is major bombing by both sides, the tunnels could be destroyed in the process.

Huh? Burned fields and fire balloons are a warning? No, they are just business as usual from Hamas.

So if someone burned your yard and sent balloons with messages to your house, you would call the police and expect them to have no reaction? Even if it happened before, the police still ought to investigate and keep a watchful eye. It's their job and what they get paid to do. They don't get paid to sit around chatting at the Dunkin Donuts and go down police slides.

 

[steve_bank]

I know there is nothing I or anyone can say or do that will change the trajectory of where this is all headed.

I just hope things hold together until after I am dead and buried.

 

[steve_bank]

Israel is arming settlers in the West Bank.

Biden wants to keep the conflict from spreading, yet we the USA does not deter Israel from actions in the West Bank enraging Palestinians. Like seizing land for Israeli expansion.

 

[jonatha]

The IDF does have a pretty good intelligence system.

Tell that to the 1400 people who were murdered...

 

[laughing dog]

There is no option for peace so long as the terror money flows.

So you support the US cutting off aid to Israel? Remember, money is fungible. And there is no doubt that IDF policies are a form of terrorism.

 

[Harry Bosch]

The IDF does have a pretty good intelligence system.

Tell that to the 1400 people who were murdered...

It appears that the IDF isn't the problem:

MSN

Apparantly the IDF informed Netanyahu of the pending Hamas attack. I'd recommend electing a leader who would prioritize defending his country rather than attempting to dismantle their democracy.

 

[steve_bank]

There is no option for peace so long as the terror money flows.

So you support the US cutting off aid to Israel? Remember, money is fungible. And there is no doubt that IDF policies are a form of terrorism.

We could have linked aid to withdrawal from the West Bank. Wethink nothng of scmyomng anybody but Israel.

Netanyahu is Trump like and heading Israel away from democracy. He wants the government not an independent spreme court to decide what is and is not legal. Probably tied to his corruption charges.

 

[Harry Bosch]

There is no option for peace so long as the terror money flows.

So you support the US cutting off aid to Israel? Remember, money is fungible. And there is no doubt that IDF policies are a form of terrorism.

We could have linked aid to withdrawal from the West Bank. Wethink nothng of scmyomng anybody but Israel.

Netanyahu is Trump like and heading Israel away from democracy. He wants the government not an independent spreme court to decide what is and is not legal. Probably tied to his corruption charges.

The Israeli right wingers are more concerned with empowering and defending illegal settlers rather than adequately defending their own country. I say this to my Israeli friends: if you want a prosperous and strong Israeli state, you must stop the illegal settlements. The settlements incense the Palestinians; decrease the chances of a two-state solution, and dilute Israeli defenses.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

The strike itself, showing several secondary explosions indicating the site was used to store explosives.

That's like one step away from screaming it was an inside jobs and something about "squibs."

No. Secondary booms like that are a standard yardstick for determining that what was hit was military. Almost nothing civilian will react like that to being bombed. (Not all military targets will go boom, but if it goes boom you can presume it was on target.)

 

[Loren Pechtel]

More from Al Jazeera.

Al Jazeera is under the control of a terrorist sponsor. It is not remotely credible these days on such matters.

UN says Gaza health ministry death tolls in earlier conflicts ‘credible’

The UN agency for Palestinian refugees says the death toll given by the health ministry in Gaza had proved to be “credible” in previous conflicts after Washington raised doubts about figures from the current war.

And the UN isn't credible about Gaza, either. Back of the envelope, divide any reports out of Gaza by 10.

“In the past, the five, six cycles of conflict in the Gaza Strip, these figures were considered as credible and no one ever really challenged these figures,” UNRWA chief Philippe Lazzarini told reporters.

Lazzarini said 57 UNRWA staff had been killed since the conflict began, explaining how the agency’s death toll was in line with the ratio of Palestinians killed to the territory’s overall population, as provided by the health ministry.

“We have more or less the same percentage,” he said.

Lazzarini’s comments came just days after US President Joe Biden said he had “no confidence” in the figures provided by Gaza’s health ministry, drawing criticism from Palestinian rights advocates. On Thursday, meanwhile, the health ministry released a list with the names of the more than 7,000 Palestinians, including nearly 3,000 children, killed since the war began on October 7.

Seems to me that President Biden was uncritically repeating what some Israeli officials claimed -- that Hamas is ordering the hospital administrators to exaggerate the death toll from Israel's attacks on the Gaza Strip.

Because Israel's numbers tend to be pretty accurate and Hamas numbers tend to be wildly exaggerated.

Hundreds rally at Ramallah protest despite ‘fear and anxiety’

It is a large rally by Ramallah standards these days. They are chanting support for Gaza as well as the Qassam Brigades – the military arm of Hamas. There are protests occurring in other cities and towns in the occupied West Bank.

You must not underestimate the amount of anxiety and fear that exists across the occupied West Bank. I’ve been reporting for weeks now about the nightly Israeli raids and detentions. There is also the settler violence – an average of eight attacks a day and they are increasing.

A far-right member of the Israeli government – who is also Israel’s national security minister Itamar Ben-Gvir – has been arming the settlers. The army has said it is ‘taking off its gloves’. So people are afraid.

So those settlers have become terrorists.

Becoming terrorists, or becoming more prepared to deal with terrorist attacks? Remember, most people in Israel have had military training.

Nine trucks carrying ‘141 metric tonnes’ of food crossed into Gaza: WFP

The World Food Programme says nine trucks carrying 141 metric tonnes of food supplies crossed into Gaza since the Rafah crossing opened on Saturday.

But to ramp up its operation in the next two months and reach 1.1 million people in the Gaza Strip, 40 trucks need to enter the besieged enclave daily.

“For every person that received WFP food assistance, at least six more are in need,” the aid agency says.

The "humanitarian crisis" in Gaza is entirely of Hams' making. They stockpiled stuff and they are using the suffering of the people as a weapon.

(Yeah, you're going to gripe about the source--but it's taken from the New York Times. It's just that's paywalled.)

Arab, Western officials agree Hamas is keeping Gaza food, fuel for itself – NY Times

Sources tell newspaper terror group has stocks that could last for months, as it prepares for lengthy fight ahead

www.timesofisrael.com

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I agree. Derec is just spreading the lie that Tlaib has endorsed Hamas. I have only seen statements from her that endorse the Palestinian cause and treat Hamas as a symptom of Israeli apartheid. That is quite different from endorsing the unelected terrorist organization that rules over Gaza. Hamas doesn't represent the Palestinian cause, and it is evident that they haven't just raped, murdered, and taken Israelis as hostage in their terrorist attack. They deliberately provoked Israel into launching a genocidal attack that has killed, wounded, and maimed thousands of Palestinians, who have nowhere to flee. Hamas will use Israel's excessive retaliation as a means of recruiting future terrorists and spreading more hatred and violence in the Middle East. Tlaib has called for an end to the root causes of the blood feud between Palestinians and Israelis that have led up to the current violence. Here position sounds extremely unrealistic, given the level of mutual animosity between Israelis and Palestinian Arabs, but so is the position that the two communities can end the violence with more violence.

Her words are comparable to blaming a woman for being raped because she was wearing skimpy attire.

There are no calls on Hamas to not shoot at Israel, only calls for Israel not to shoot back.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Huh? Burned fields and fire balloons are a warning? No, they are just business as usual from Hamas.

So if someone burned your yard and sent balloons with messages to your house, you would call the police and expect them to have no reaction? Even if it happened before, the police still ought to investigate and keep a watchful eye. It's their job and what they get paid to do. They don't get paid to sit around chatting at the Dunkin Donuts and go down police slides.

They were blaming Shin Bet for ignoring the "warning" of fire balloons.

While I agree fire balloons are not good they aren't a warning because they are routine. Should Israel have leveled Gaza before to stop the fire balloons?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

There is no option for peace so long as the terror money flows.

So you support the US cutting off aid to Israel? Remember, money is fungible. And there is no doubt that IDF policies are a form of terrorism.

Could you please actually address the point?

The money to Hamas is contingent upon them taking the path of war. The money to Israel is not.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

There is no option for peace so long as the terror money flows.

So you support the US cutting off aid to Israel? Remember, money is fungible. And there is no doubt that IDF policies are a form of terrorism.

We could have linked aid to withdrawal from the West Bank. Wethink nothng of scmyomng anybody but Israel.

Netanyahu is Trump like and heading Israel away from democracy. He wants the government not an independent spreme court to decide what is and is not legal. Probably tied to his corruption charges.

We won't because we know it would do no good. The actions in the West Bank are irrelevant because the problem predates those actions.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

Huh? Burned fields and fire balloons are a warning? No, they are just business as usual from Hamas.

So if someone burned your yard and sent balloons with messages to your house, you would call the police and expect them to have no reaction? Even if it happened before, the police still ought to investigate and keep a watchful eye. It's their job and what they get paid to do. They don't get paid to sit around chatting at the Dunkin Donuts and go down police slides.

They were blaming Shin Bet for ignoring the "warning" of fire balloons.

While I agree fire balloons are not good they aren't a warning because they are routine. Should Israel have leveled Gaza before to stop the fire balloons?

You'd have been happier if they leveled Gaza sooner. Personally, I don't agree with needless civilian deaths on either side. And I think that the hostage was talking about increased defenses, not leveling civilians in Gaza.

 

[jonatha]

scmyomng

Could you please type that again?

 

[Copernicus]

...
I agree. Derec is just spreading the lie that Tlaib has endorsed Hamas. I have only seen statements from her that endorse the Palestinian cause and treat Hamas as a symptom of Israeli apartheid. That is quite different from endorsing the unelected terrorist organization that rules over Gaza. Hamas doesn't represent the Palestinian cause, and it is evident that they haven't just raped, murdered, and taken Israelis as hostage in their terrorist attack. They deliberately provoked Israel into launching a genocidal attack that has killed, wounded, and maimed thousands of Palestinians, who have nowhere to flee. Hamas will use Israel's excessive retaliation as a means of recruiting future terrorists and spreading more hatred and violence in the Middle East. Tlaib has called for an end to the root causes of the blood feud between Palestinians and Israelis that have led up to the current violence. Here position sounds extremely unrealistic, given the level of mutual animosity between Israelis and Palestinian Arabs, but so is the position that the two communities can end the violence with more violence.

Her words are comparable to blaming a woman for being raped because she was wearing skimpy attire.

No, her words were not remotely comparable to justifying the violence committed by Hamas, but she did not mention Hamas or the Israeli government directly in her statement, although she did refer to an "apartheid government". She is after all, a Palestinian Arab, and that does reflect the opinion of most Palestinian Arabs. It's just that she opened herself up by not directly condemning Hamas directly by name for its terrorist attack, choosing instead to talk about the conflict as if it were a blood feud in which both sides were committing atrocities against each other. So I stand by what I said about spreading the lie that she has somehow endorsed Hamas in its horrific attack.

There are no calls on Hamas to not shoot at Israel, only calls for Israel not to shoot back.

She mentioned neither Hamas nor the Israeli government by name. Here was the initial statement that drew all the outrage:

“I grieve the Palestinian and Israeli lives lost yesterday, today, and every day,” Tlaib said. “I am determined as ever to fight for a just future where everyone can live in peace, without fear and with true freedom, equal rights, and human dignity. The path to that future must include lifting the blockade, ending the occupation and dismantling the apartheid system that creates the suffocating, dehumanizing conditions that can lead to resistance.

“The failure to recognize the violent reality of living under siege, occupation, and apartheid makes no one safer,” she said. “No person, no child anywhere should have to suffer or live in fear of violence. We cannot ignore the humanity in each other. As long as our country provides billions in unconditional funding to support the apartheid government, this heartbreaking cycle of violence will continue.”

That was the statement that you said was comparable to blaming a woman for being raped because she was wearing skimpy attire. Again, not remotely comparable. In response to the torrent of outrage directed at her tepid statement of grievance for deaths on both sides, she issued this clarification:

“I do not support the targeting and killing of civilians, whether in Israel or Palestine,” Tlaib first told the Advance on Wednesday. “The fact that some have suggested otherwise is offensive and rooted in bigoted assumptions about my faith and ethnicity.”

Again, she does not name Hamas directly but merely "does not support" violence by both sides in this blood feud. Her protests are too tepid, which I attribute to the fact that she feels her own position undercut by the brutality of the Hamas attack. It is hard to call for reconciliation in the face of mutual atrocities by both sides. Right now, far more Palestinians have died in the resulting retaliation for October 7, so I suspect it is very hard for her to give a full-throated condemnation of terrorism initiated by Hamas when the retaliatory terrorism against the general Gazan population, not just Hamas, has been just as brutal, if not worse. The Palestinians do not have any Iron Dome with which to defend itself against Israeli bombardment.

 

[JohnG]

It seems extremely likely this was a trap set for Israel. Right Wing govts usually respond (like Bush did) to such events extremely poorly, leading to disastrous consequences for the nations they govern.

I've said for years that Netanyahu could be the end of Israel, and I believe Trump could possibly be the end of the US. 80 000 people protested the last election in Israel and they were right to do so.

This is win/win for Hamas. They pull off their terrorist plot, get their hostages and Israel reacts as a RW govt always does and now global antisemitism is on the rise. The dead Palestinians that result are of no concern to Hamas - they are part of the plan. Likely why Hamas instructed Palestinians to stay put and not flee.

 

[laughing dog]

There is no option for peace so long as the terror money flows.

So you support the US cutting off aid to Israel? Remember, money is fungible. And there is no doubt that IDF policies are a form of terrorism.

Could you please actually address the point?

I did.

The money to Hamas is contingent upon them taking the path of war. The money to Israel is not.

Prove your claim . The money to Israel does not stop even when Israel engages in terroristic activity.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

So how many possible targets exist against Hamas in Gaza? It has been a quite a while and a lot of munitions have been plopped in Gaza.

Israel has a every right to justice, but justice isn't being applied here, retaliation is. To be clear, while planning is good, this siege should have existed for a period of time to allow a very specific coordinated attack. That isn't what we are seeing here.

Israel is exposing the Palestinians to a great deal of suffering (well above that of normal life) for nearly no tactical gain. Israel, for lack of a better phrase, is running out of time.

The atrocities committed against Israel by Hamas didn't buy them a blind check for eternity and Netanyahu is getting exposed for being the shit leader he is, and he has about completely squandered the grace period the globe provided them.