Merged Gaza just launched an unprovoked attack on Israel

[barbos]

US would had to invent Ukraine Israel.

 

[laughing dog]

There is no option for peace so long as the terror money flows.

So you support the US cutting off aid to Israel? Remember, money is fungible. And there is no doubt that IDF policies are a form of terrorism.

Could you please actually address the point?

I did.

The money to Hamas is contingent upon them taking the path of war. The money to Israel is not.

Prove your claim . The money to Israel does not stop even when Israel engages in terroristic activity.

Are you denying the money to the terrorist groups is for purposes other than terror?

Whether you like it or not, Hamas does more than terroristic activities.
Now, do you have any proof?

And I'm not aware of any incident of Israel engaging in terrorist activity, although there has been some individual actions that would qualify as terrorism.

Your inability to admit reality reveals more about your mindset than what is going on in Gaza or the gov't of Israel's terrorist activities and enabling of terrorism on its behalf by its citizens.


Before you respond without thinking, I am not equating Israel with Hamas.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

So how many possible targets exist against Hamas in Gaza? It has been a quite a while and a lot of munitions have been plopped in Gaza.

Israel has a every right to justice, but justice isn't being applied here, retaliation is. To be clear, while planning is good, this siege should have existed for a period of time to allow a very specific coordinated attack. That isn't what we are seeing here.

Israel is exposing the Palestinians to a great deal of suffering (well above that of normal life) for nearly no tactical gain. Israel, for lack of a better phrase, is running out of time.

The atrocities committed against Israel by Hamas didn't buy them a blind check for eternity and Netanyahu is getting exposed for being the shit leader he is, and he has about completely squandered the grace period the globe provided them.

The problem is the targets are dispersed through the civilian areas. As are the tunnels.

Israel has reported they have dropped 6000 bombs (as of 17 days ago!). I get that trying to bomb out tunnels and legitimate Hamas targets that are purposefully snuggled with the civilian population is hard and sometimes requires accepting some collateral damage. But Israel is dropping a ridiculous number of bombs. That can't all be serious Hamas targets, unless they are dropping bombs like we swipe at flies.

I remember from a previous conflict reports of bombed-out apartment buildings, conveniently ignoring the fact that the bombs had actually been used to collapse a tunnel running along the street. Any media that wants to operate in that area would have to ignore the elephant that was readily visible--bombs do not carve long, thin craters. A long, thin crater is because a long, thin underground void collapsed--a tunnel. (And that applies wherever you are--there's a long, thin crater on the moon believed to be due to the collapse of an ancient lava tube.)

I've got to wonder about the subsidence at the surface from a collapsed tunnel, relative to the crater of a bomb.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

They're tepid because she's watering them down enough that people won't see what she's really saying.

The 1000 lb gorilla in the room is that Netanyahu was so busy trying become a dictator of Israel so he didn't go to prison over his crimes, that he was caught with his pants down in this attack much like the W Admin was in 2001 when they were prioritizing Cold War era missile defense and tax cuts.

Netanyahu's response to the Hamas atrocity was to make it look like shit was happening... when it wasn't. The targeting of Hamas has been pathetic and Israel is no better off today than it was three weeks ago, while the Palestinians are being put through hell. Netanyahu is burning through his grace period because he is a shit authoritarian leader that can't govern, forget about manage a national crisis.

 

[Rhea]

scmyomng

Could you please type that again?

Going with, “supporting” based on what letters are near it On the keyboard.

 

[TomC]

Israel has reported they have dropped 6000 bombs (as of 17 days ago!). I get that trying to bomb out tunnels and legitimate Hamas targets that are purposefully snuggled with the civilian population is hard and sometimes requires accepting some collateral damage. But Israel is dropping a ridiculous number of bombs. That can't all be serious Hamas targets, unless they are dropping bombs like we swipe at flies.

Of course they can all be legitimate targets. Hamas designed it that way. Maximize civilian casualties for political purposes is how they stay in power.
Tom

 

[jonatha]

he plan advocates the forced transfer of the population of the Gaza Strip to Sinai permanently

What difference will that make (from the Israeli point of view)? Sinai has a longer border with Israel than Gaza does...

 

[TomC]

The 1000 lb gorilla in the room is that Netanyahu was so busy trying become a dictator of Israel so he didn't go to prison over his crimes, that he was caught with his pants down in this attack much like the W Admin was in 2001 when they were prioritizing Cold War era missile defense and tax cuts.

I don't think that's the 1000# gorilla in the room.
The gorilla is authoritarianism and violence in the Muslim culture.

Ugly as Israeli responses have been, they've always been responses to a military assault or an intifada or something, for decades.


There's plenty of blame to spread around over the last several decades. But the nightmare going on right now is clearly because Hamas doesn't care about Gazans as much as they do staying in power. Hamas started something on Oct 7. It did not, and could not, benefit the Palestinians in any way. But they did it any way, because Gazans don't matter until they're martyrs.
Martyrs for Hamas.

Tom

 

[lpetrich]

Israel restored Gaza’s internet under U.S. pressure, official says; Netanyahu warns of long war - The Washington Post

• Israel has agreed to speed up inspections to allow 100 aid trucks into Gaza each day,...
• Lebanon’s Hezbollah said the group’s leader, Hasan Nasrallah, is set to give a speech on Friday...
• Biden and Sisi seek to ensure Palestinians won’t be displaced to Egypt

Israel Defense Forces spokesman Daniel Hagari said Sunday that more troops had entered Gaza, as Hamas’s military arm said it was engaged in clashes with Israeli forces in the far north of the enclave.

Israeli attacks have killed at least 8,005 people in Gaza and wounded more than 20,240, the Gaza Health Ministry said. Israeli authorities said more than 1,400 people have been killed in Israel and more than 5,400 injured since Hamas’s Oct. 7 attack. At least 32 U.S. nationals are among those killed.

• Hostage families say Israel operation in Gaza could endanger loved one
• Police investigates antisemitic threats at Cornell University
• Analysis: Israel’s Gaza offensive stirs a wave of global protest
• Early stages of Israeli ground assault in Gaza shrouded in secrecy
• More Democrats warn Biden about how Israel is conducting response
• Israel has agreed to speed up inspections to allow 100 aid trucks into Gaza each day, a senior U.S. official, who spoke on the condition of anonymity to discuss sensitive negotiations, told The Washington Post. A timetable was not given for when that could happen. The prewar daily average was 450.
• Searching for wheat flour and other survival items, thousands of people broke into U.N. warehouses in Gaza on Saturday, the U.N. agency for Palestinian refugees said Sunday.
• The Israeli military said on Telegram that its aircraft had “struck military infrastructure” in Syrian territory early Monday local time. The strikes were in retaliation for missiles launched from Syria toward Israel that fell into an open area late Sunday, according to the Israeli military.
• Photos: Displaced Palestinians live in tents and cars amid bombardment
• Gaza received 24 trucks containing food supplies and medical necessities from the Egyptian Red Crescent on Sunday evening, according to the Palestine Red Crescent Society, which received the aid. Earlier Sunday, Gaza received 10 additional trucks, also through the Rafah crossing. Israel has only let a trickle of aid enter Gaza, and the entry of fuel still has not been allowed.
• Blinken calls top Turkish diplomat amid tense Israel-Turkey relations
• Jordan’s army asked Washington for Patriot missiles to bolster defenses at the border, an army spokesman said, due to continued threats that include ballistic missiles that “surround Jordan from the north, east and west.”
• Lebanon’s Hezbollah said the group’s leader, Hasan Nasrallah, is set to give a speech on Friday afternoon dedicated to the “pride of the martyrs” who were killed defending Lebanon and in support of Gaza, the Palestinian people and holy sites.
• Russian airport closes after protest blocked plane from Tel Aviv
• ...

 

[Copernicus]

...

No, her words were not remotely comparable to justifying the violence committed by Hamas, but she did not mention Hamas or the Israeli government directly in her statement, although she did refer to an "apartheid government". She is after all, a Palestinian Arab, and that does reflect the opinion of most Palestinian Arabs. It's just that she opened herself up by not directly condemning Hamas directly by name for its terrorist attack, choosing instead to talk about the conflict as if it were a blood feud in which both sides were committing atrocities against each other. So I stand by what I said about spreading the lie that she has somehow endorsed Hamas in its horrific attack.

Dog whistles.
...

That's your argument to defend the claim that Tlaib supports Hamas? No point in pursuing this further. If they vote to censure or expel her, it will be because of who she is, not what she said.

 

[lpetrich]

As settler violence surges, West Bank Palestinians fear new displacement - The Washington Post

Settler violence against Palestinians in the West Bank has reached record levels in the wake of the Oct. 7 Hamas attack on Israel, according to rights groups, which warn that the radical settler movement is seeking to further entrench its presence across the occupied territory.

B’Tselem, an Israeli human rights group, says at least seven Palestinians have been killed by Israeli settlers since the war in Gaza began; more than 100 Palestinians in the West Bank have been killed by Israeli forces over the same time period, according to the United Nations. Some 500 Palestinians have been driven from their homes.

The attacks have intensified tensions in the West Bank, where calls for militancy are already surging after a spike in Israeli raids and arrests. Settler groups say they are acting in self-defense. Even before Oct. 7, Palestinian militants had carried out deadly attacks this year in Jewish communities across the territory.

 

[lpetrich]

What to do about the Amalekites? 1 Samuel 15:3

So go now and strike down the Amalekites. Destroy everything they have. Don’t spare them. Put them to death—man, woman, child, infant, ox, sheep, camel, and donkey alike.’

It was not just Amalekites who were to be exterminated. Deuteronomy 20:

16 As for the cities of these peoples that the Lord your God is going to give you as an inheritance, you must not allow a single living thing to survive. 17 Instead you must utterly annihilate them—the Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites, and Jebusites—just as the Lord your God has commanded you, 18 so that they cannot teach you all the abhorrent ways they worship their gods, causing you to sin against the Lord your God.

We read in the Book of Joshua that when the Israelites arrived in the Promised Land, they killed many of the people already there.

Yes, parts of the Bible advocate genocide.

 

[Derec]

Speaking of the Bible:

6 Thus says the Lord:
“For three transgressions of Gaza,
and for four, I will not revoke the punishment;[d]
because they carried into exile a whole people
to deliver them up to Edom.
7 So I will send a fire upon the wall of Gaza,
and it shall devour her strongholds.
8 I will cut off the inhabitants from Ashdod,
and him that holds the scepter from Ash′kelon;
I will turn my hand against Ekron;
and the remnant of the Philistines shall perish,”
says the Lord God.

In those days, Ashdod and Ashkelon were Philistine cities like Gaza.
Btw, other than the name and the fact that they are both invaders, there is no connection between ancient Philistines and modern day "Palestinians".

 

[Derec]

That's your argument to defend the claim that Tlaib supports Hamas? No point in pursuing this further. If they vote to censure or expel her, it will be because of who she is, not what she said.

She never came out directly and supported Hamas. But she took the Hamas side in the hospital blast dispute, disbelieving the analysis not only by US intelligence but also by several media outlets.
And even before this conflict, she has been a proponent of a "one state solution". That "solution" envisions Israel getting abolished and replaced by a single state of "Palestine" where Jews would either leave or live under the yoke of Muslims and Arabs.
Michigan candidate backs 1-state solution, slashing military aid to Israel

You know who else wants to abolish Israel? Hamas!

 

[Tigers!]

Is it worth reminding people that the USA declared war on Japan for 2403 dead at Pearl Habour? What should the USA's proportional response really have been?
Perhaps just sinking the the Hiryu and Soryu?

WTF?!

Japan formerly declared war on the US.

Japan attacked USA just like Hamas attacked Israel on 7th Oct.
I am sure that many today would have cautioned the US not to respond precetitiously and or that their resposne in "proportion" hence my comment about the Hiryu and Soryu. They had a combined crew of about 2300.

Japan formally declared war on the United States. They didn't merely attack Pearl Harbor, they sent a declaration to DC.

Pity it arrived 7.5 hours after the attack. So essentially a surprise attack.

Japanese declaration of war on the United States and the British Empire - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

The US doesn't have a parallel to the Hamas attack in it's history.

A sudden attack out of the blue was Pearl Harbour, just like the Hamas 7th October attack.

 

[Tigers!]

Israel has reported they have dropped 6000 bombs (as of 17 days ago!). I get that trying to bomb out tunnels and legitimate Hamas targets that are purposefully snuggled with the civilian population is hard and sometimes requires accepting some collateral damage. But Israel is dropping a ridiculous number of bombs.

How many bombs, IYHO, should Israel have dropped?

That can't all be serious Hamas targets, unless they are dropping bombs like we swipe at flies.

You/me do not know which targets are serious or not. But Hamas would have made sure that their infrastructure is woven tightly through all of the Gaza strip. Rendering it impossible for Israel to attack without causing collateral damage. Unless you are saying that Israel is not allowed to defend itself then it is hard to see what else Israel can do.

I remember from a previous conflict reports of bombed-out apartment buildings, conveniently ignoring the fact that the bombs had actually been used to collapse a tunnel running along the street. Any media that wants to operate in that area would have to ignore the elephant that was readily visible--bombs do not carve long, thin craters. A long, thin crater is because a long, thin underground void collapsed--a tunnel. (And that applies wherever you are--there's a long, thin crater on the moon believed to be due to the collapse of an ancient lava tube.)

I've got to wonder about the subsidence at the surface from a collapsed tunnel, relative to the crater of a bomb.

An aerial photograph should show the difference.

 

[Derec]

I agree. Derec is just spreading the lie that Tlaib has endorsed Hamas.

I did not say she explicitly endorsed Hamas. But she does believe Hamas statements over US statements. Shows her where her sympatyhies lie.
Rep. Rashida Tlaib draws fire for not apologizing for saying Israel caused Gaza hospital blast

I have only seen statements from her that endorse the Palestinian cause

She is also on record wanting to abolish Israel.

and treat Hamas as a symptom of Israeli apartheid. That is quite different from endorsing the unelected terrorist organization that rules over Gaza.

And yet she accepts Hamas statements about the war without question.

Hamas doesn't represent the Palestinian cause, and it is evident that they haven't just raped, murdered, and taken Israelis as hostage in their terrorist attack.

It is evident that they have done all those things in their terrorist attack.

They deliberately provoked Israel into launching a genocidal attack that has killed, wounded, and maimed thousands of Palestinians, who have nowhere to flee.

It is Hamas that is geocidal here.

Hamas will use Israel's excessive retaliation as a means of recruiting future terrorists and spreading more hatred and violence in the Middle East.

Which is why it is important to crush Hamas once and for all. Otherwise, they will rebuild their rocket stockpiles, recruit more teenagers, and attack Israel again in a few years, like they have been doing for decades.

Tlaib has called for an end to the root causes of the blood feud between Palestinians and Israelis that have led up to the current violence.

According to her, existence of Israel is the "root cause". Not Islamism or antisemitism. Just Israel.

Here position sounds extremely unrealistic, given the level of mutual animosity between Israelis and Palestinian Arabs, but so is the position that the two communities can end the violence with more violence.

In WWII we ended the violence through a decisive victory on the battlefield. Hamas is no less evil than NSDAP and quite a bit more evil than Imperial Japan.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Is it worth reminding people that the USA declared war on Japan for 2403 dead at Pearl Habour? What should the USA's proportional response really have been?
Perhaps just sinking the the Hiryu and Soryu?

WTF?!

Japan formerly declared war on the US.

Japan attacked USA just like Hamas attacked Israel on 7th Oct.
I am sure that many today would have cautioned the US not to respond precetitiously and or that their resposne in "proportion" hence my comment about the Hiryu and Soryu. They had a combined crew of about 2300.

Japan formally declared war on the United States. They didn't merely attack Pearl Harbor, they sent a declaration to DC.

Pity it arrived 7.5 hours after the attack. So essentially a surprise attack.

Japanese declaration of war on the United States and the British Empire - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

The US doesn't have a parallel to the Hamas attack in it's history.

A sudden attack out of the blue was Pearl Harbour, just like the Hamas 7th October attack.

Except Hamas isn't a nation state.

 

[Derec]

Except Hamas isn't a nation state.

They are the de facto government of Gaza, a polity of some 2.3M.

 

[lpetrich]

A rough timeline of Israel/Palestine/Canaan:

• 13,000 BCE - sedentary people: Natufians.
• 10,000 BCE - invention of agriculture.
• 9,600 BCE - Jericho founded.
• 4,000 BCE - Proto-Semitic speakers split up; their language was the ancestor of Hebrew, Arabic, Aramaic, Akkadian, Amharic, ...
• 1,550 BCE - Egypt's New-Kingdom Levantine Empire begins with raids of cities.
• 1,200 BCE - Late Bronze Age Collapse: end of Egypt's Levantine empire, destruction of numerous cities. First references to "Israel" (i-si-ri-ar) and "Palestine" (p-r-s-t: Peleset) though as ethnic groups.
• 950 BCE - Emergence of the kingdoms of Israel and Judah. Philistia (Gaza Strip) and Phoenicia (Lebanon) remain city-states. Across the Jordan River are the kingdoms of Ammon and Moab. To the south was the kingdom of Edom. They spoke very similar languages, pointing to descent from some people that split up some centuries earlier.
• 720 BCE - Destruction of Israel, the northern kingdom, by the Assyrians.
• 701 BCE - Assyria besieges Jerusalem, capital of Judah, the southern kingdom, but quits.
• 597 BCE - Babylon conquers Judah, exiles many Israelites.
• 538 BCE - King Cyrus of Persia makes Judah autonomous, ends Babylonian Exile.
• 332 BCE - Alexander the Great's armies conquer Persia.
• 321 BCE - Alexander the Great's empire partitioned after his death among his generals.
• 312 BCE - Successor general Seleucus I Nicator founds a Greek Middle Eastern empire from his territory.
• 167 BCE - Judas Maccabeus starts a revolt against the Seleucid Empire.
• 160 BCE - The Seleucids re-establish themselves in the cities.
• 152 BCE - Judea becomes autonomous.
• 141 BCE - Judea becomes independent under the Hasmoneans. They then conquer the surrounding land.
• 63 BCE - Roman general Pompey conquers Jerusalem, reduces Judea to a Roman client state.
• 37 BCE - King Herod the Great takes over, supported by the Romans, adds to the Jerusalem Temple.
• 66 - 73 CE - First Jewish-Roman War. Ends with the Romans destroying Jerusalem and its temple.
• 115 - 117 CE - Kitos War
• 132 - 136 CE - Bar Kokhba Revolt. Ends with the Romans doing mass murder, deportations, enslavements, and turning Jerusalem into a Roman city called Aelia Capitolina.
• 330 CE - Roman Emperor Constantine moves the empire capital from Rome to Byzantium, renamed Constantinople ("Constantine Town").
• 635 - 637 CE - Rashidun Caliph Umar conquers Palestine, begins rule by Muslim leaders.
• 661 CE - Beginning of the Umayyad Caliphate.
• 750 CE - Beginning of the Abbasid Caliphate.
• 1099 CE - Crusaders take over Jerusalem, create a Crusader kingdom.
• 1291 CE - Mamluk Sultanate of Egypt begins rule of the area.
• 1517 CE - The Ottomans defeat the Mamluks.
• 1840 CE - Jews start moving to Palestine.
• 1881 CE - Eliezer Ben-Yehuda starts using revived Hebrew for everyday conversation. He then promotes the language for everyday use, coining numerous words for modern things like electricity.
• 1897 CE - The First Zionist Congress in Basel, Switzerland.
• 1917 CE - The Balfour Declaration is issued, promising a "national home for the Jewish people" in Palestine.
• 1918 CE - After defeating the Ottoman Empire, the British and the French divide the Levant among themselves, with the British taking Palestine.
• 1920 CE - Britain gets a mandate to rule Palestine from the League of Nations. The Zionists found a militia, Haganah ("Defense").
• 1947 CE - After being besieged by both Zionists and Arabs, Britain hands the Palestine issue over to the United Nations, which then recommends a partition plan. Palestine is to be divided into Jewish and Arab states, with them sharing Jerusalem.
• 1948 CE - The Zionists declare independence as the State of Israel, and they then fight off their Arab neighbors, who try to drive them into the sea. The Arabs fail miserably, losing some territory, including West Jerusalem. Some 700,000 Palestinian Arabs flee, in the Nakba ("Catastrophe").
• 1956 CE - Israel, helped by Britain and France, try to take over the Sinai Peninsula and the Suez Canal, after Egypt's leader Gamal Abdel Nasser nationalized it. US President Eisenhower was outraged, and he forced Israel to withdraw.
• 1967 CE - Egypt, Jordan, and Syria attack Israel in the Six-Day War. Israel fought them off, taking the Golan Heights, the West Bank, East Jerusalem, the Gaza Strip, and the Sinai Peninsula.
• 1973 CE - Egypt and Syria attack Israel in the Yom Kippur War, but are beaten off.
• 1979 CE - Israel and Egypt make peace, and Egypt gets the Sinai Peninsula back.
• 1994 CE - Israel and Jordan make peace.
• 2020 CE - The Abraham Accords

 Prehistory of the Levant and  Proto-Semitic language and  Merneptah Stele and  Late Bronze Age collapse and  Peleset and  Canaanite languages and  Timeline of the name Palestine and  History of Zionism and  Revival of the Hebrew language and  Balfour Declaration and  United Nations Partition Plan for Palestine and  Camp David Accords and numerous other sources.