Merged Gaza just launched an unprovoked attack on Israel

[Arctish]

That does not mean Israel should be given free rein to starve, bomb, and brutalize the civilians of Gaza. It should not be allowed to deny them water. But I firmly believe Israel should want peacemakers to succeed in bringing prosperity to Palestinians who have chosen to forswear violence, which means rewarding Abbas and Fatah with major improvements in Palestinian communities and recognition of Palestinian rights. And IMO Israel should insist on having the PA be the go-between negotiators for Gaza, at least until the current spate of fighting dies down.

Which will just make things worse, just like everything else "positive" that Israel does.

You keep making the claim that Israel has made concessions and done positive things, and you keep failing to back it up with evidence.

What concessions has Israel made?

List them.

The thing is it's not the opinion of the Palestinians that matters, it's the opinion of those who are funding the war that matters--and it's not done for the benefit of the Palestinians. Any approach to peace based on concessions is hopeless.

The biggest problem with the situation in Gaza and the West Bank is that people who don't fight back against Israel's expansion have their land stolen, their orchards and farms ruined, and their livelihoods destroyed, while people who do fight back have the exact same thing happen only quicker. We can all see the incentive to be violent but where is the incentive to be peaceful?

That's what happens when you choose the path of war.

And that right there is justification for all the bombings, the knifings, the shootings, and murderous mayhem in Israel.

Zionists chose the path of war and now their children are paying the price, right, Loren? It's okay that they're being murdered and maimed, because some people in their faith group are assholes, and some fighters were seen wearing civilian clothes, so that justifies everything.

Your complacency in the face of thousands of people being slaughtered is appalling.

Years ago, the PA offered major concessions on Jerusalem and the settlements. This was after it formally recognized the Right of Israel to exist and the Right of Jewish immigrants to live there. I think it's time Israel offered a few major concessions as well, starting with recognizing the Right of Palestinians to remain in their homes in Palestine. Honestly, I don't believe Israel will be doing that anytime soon. The settlers have the upper hand in Israeli society and the Knesset. The violence they commit has been on the increase since 2022
but arrests and prosecutions for those acts of violence haven't.

That's the UN. Not even a remotely honest source on Israel/Palestine issues.

You say that about everyone and everything that isn't rabidly pro-zionist.

But in the interests of seeing what you think is a reliable source, show us one. You can start with one that list all the concessions Israel has made to the Palestinian people.

 

[Arctish]

IMO the Two State solution died with the Oslo Accords. The only options left are genocide, ethnic cleansing, Israel's defeat, or equal rights in the One State solution.

Israel's defeat is equivalent to genocide. As is, frankly, the so-called "one state solution" which is really the "final solution". This "one state" would be dominated by Muslims and Arabs and Jews would either be killed or driven out. The only possible solution involves crushing the terror groups, defanging Iran, and convincing Palestinians that their best course of action is to be a good neighbor and not a genocidal menace.

<Psst... your anti-Semitism is showing>

I think you need a mirror.

I can't see how anything he said is anti-semitic. Rather, he's pointing out that your position is in effect calling for genocide of the Jews.

He's saying that Semitic people, unlike every other ethnic group in the world, can't be trusted to live peaceably side by side with their neighbors, and he's ignoring centuries of history that prove him wrong. It's the same shit the Nazis said about Jews, and why it was necessary to remove Jews from their midst: those dirty bastards couldn't be trusted to stop preying on the nice folks who trusted them enough to let them live in their communities.

Israel being defeated on the battlefield ≠ all Jews everywhere being killed. It doesn't mean all Jews in Israel being killed. It doesn't even mean all Jews on the battlefield being killed. That's just hysterical fearmongering. But it might mean the Israelis stop putting the pro-war faction in charge of their country, and maybe empower a more peace minded, pragmatic faction instead.

We can only hope.

 

[lpetrich]

 Revisionist Zionism - a century ago, some Zionists wanted *all* the territory that was specified in the original British Mandate for Palestine, territory on both sides of the Jordan River. This movement got a setback in 1921 when the British divided their mandated territory into Palestine, west of the Jordan, and Transjordan, east of the Jordan. When Transjordan became independent in 1946, its leaders changed their new country's name to Jordan.

The Revisionists got their own militia in the 1930's, the Irgun Tsvai Leumi ("National Military Organization"), a splinter from the Zionists' main militia, the Haganah ("Defense"). The Irgun or Etzel did a lot of terrorism.

The Irgun carried out a number of attacks against the British and Arabs. In September 1937, the Irgun killed 13 Arabs which was said to be in retaliation for the deaths of three Jews.[5] The summer of 1938 was the high point of the Irgun's campaign.[5] On July 6, 1938, the Irgun set off a bomb in a milk can in the Arab market in Haifa which killed 21 and injured 52.[5] On July 15, 1938, an electric mine in David Street in Jerusalem killed 10 and injured 30.[5] On July 25, 1938, the Irgun set off another bomb in the Arab market in Haifa which killed 35 and wounded 70.[5] On August 26, 1938, the Irgun set off a bomb in the market in Jaffa which killed 24 and injured 35.[5]

In response to the White Paper in 1939, the Irgun bombed British facilities. The British responded by arresting Irgun commander David Raziel in May.[5] In addition, on August 31, 1939, the rest of the Irgun high command was apprehended while discussing Jabotinsky's plan to invade Palestine.[5]

Some of the Irgun's members thought that the Irgun was not going far enough, so in 1940, they formed a rival militia, Lehi, or the Stern Gang. They were annoyed at the Irgun not attacking the British occupiers during WWII, and they wanted an alliance with Nazi Germany to get the British out of Palestine.

After WWII, they considered an alliance with the Soviet Union for that end.

 Irgun - its logo showed both Palestine and Jordan.

 Lehi (militant group) - its logo showed its salute.

 Jewish insurgency in Mandatory Palestine - a terrorist campaign against the British occupiers

The Irgun's greatest triumph: the  King David Hotel bombing of 1946

On the other side, Palestinian Terrorism Table of Contents and  Palestine Liberation Organization and  Palestinian political violence -- oodles of terrorist attacks over the decades.

 

[lpetrich]

Egypt moves to prevent exodus of Palestinians from besieged Gaza | Reuters - 19 days ago

Egypt is moving to avert a mass exodus from the Gaza Strip into its Sinai Peninsula, as Israeli bombardment halted crossings at the main exit point from the Palestinian enclave on Tuesday, Gaza officials and Egyptian security sources said.

Israel's assault on Gaza has caused alarm in Egypt, which has urged Israel to provide safe passage for civilians from the enclave rather than encouraging them to flee southwest towards Sinai, two Egyptian security sources said.

Another reason for reluctance to flee is that doing so will give Israel a stronger hold on the territory without as many Palestinians to have to coexist with.

 

[lpetrich]

Statement by PM Netanyahu | Ministry of Foreign Affairs

They are longing to recompense the murderers for the horrific acts they perpetrated on our children, our women, our parents and our friends. They are committed to eradicating this evil from the world, for our existence, and I add, for the good of all humanity. The entire people, and the leadership of the people, embrace them and believe in them. 'Remember what Amalek did to you' (Deuteronomy 25:17). We remember and we fight.

Our brave soldiers who are now in Gaza, around Gaza and in the other sectors throughout the country, join a chain of heroes of Israel that has continued for over 3,000 years, from Joshua, Judah Maccabee and Bar Kochba, and up to the heroes of 1948, the Six Day War, the Yom Kippur War and Israel's other wars. Our heroic soldiers have one supreme goal: To destroy the murderous enemy and ensure our existence in our land. We have always said 'Never again'. 'Never again' is now.

 Amalek - "As a people, the Amalekites were identified as a recurrent enemy of the Israelites"

Deut 25:17-19

17 Remember what the Amalekites did to you on your way from Egypt, 18 how they met you along the way and cut off all your stragglers in the rear of the march when you were exhausted and tired; they were unafraid of God. 19 So when the Lord your God gives you relief from all the enemies who surround you in the land he is giving you as an inheritance, you must wipe out the memory of the Amalekites from under heaven—do not forget!

Seems close to calling for genocide: extermination of Palestinians as latter-day Amalekites.

 

[Tigers!]

Israel has a every right to justice, but justice isn't being applied here, retaliation is. To be clear, while planning is good, this siege should have existed for a period of time to allow a very specific coordinated attack. That isn't what we are seeing here.

How, pray tell, does Israel get justice?
Turning the other cheek won't give it to them.

 

[Tigers!]

It seems extremely likely this was a trap set for Israel. Right Wing govts usually respond (like Bush did) to such events extremely poorly, leading to disastrous consequences for the nations they govern.

It does look like a trap

This is win/win for Hamas. They pull off their terrorist plot, get their hostages and Israel reacts as a RW govt always does and now global antisemitism is on the rise. The dead Palestinians that result are of no concern to Hamas - they are part of the plan. Likely why Hamas instructed Palestinians to stay put and not flee.

How would a LW govt have handled the stituation of 1400 dead and > 200 hostages taken?

 

[Tigers!]

Is it worth reminding people that the USA declared war on Japan for 2403 dead at Pearl Habour? What should the USA's proportional response really have been?
Perhaps just sinking the the Hiryu and Soryu?

 

[lpetrich]

What I would have done is blockade the Gaza Strip and likely invade it, while trying to separate civilians from Hamas by feeding them, sheltering them, providing plenty of medical care, giving them plenty of phone and Internet connectivity, and protecting them from Hamas goons who try to get in the way. I would have avoided doing lots of bombing.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Is it worth reminding people that the USA declared war on Japan for 2403 dead at Pearl Habour? What should the USA's proportional response really have been?
Perhaps just sinking the the Hiryu and Soryu?

WTF?!

Japan formerly declared war on the US.

 

[lpetrich]

Leaked: Israeli plan to ethnically cleanse Gaza - "he plan advocates the forced transfer of the population of the Gaza Strip to Sinai permanently, and calls for the international community to be leveraged to assist the move"

Israeli culture magazine Mekovit published on 28 October a leaked document issued by Israel’s Ministry of Intelligence recommending the occupation of Gaza and total transfer of its 2.3 million inhabitants to Egypt’s Sinai Peninsula.

The document, issued on 13 October, identifies a plan to transfer all residents of the Gaza Strip to North Sinai as the preferred option among three alternatives regarding the future of the Palestinians in Gaza at the end of the current war between Israel and the Hamas-led Palestinian resistance.

The document recommends that Israel evacuate the Gazan population to Sinai during the war, establish tent cities and new cities in northern Sinai to accommodate the deported population, and then create a closed security zone stretching several kilometers inside Egypt. The deported Palestinians would not be allowed to return to any areas near the Israeli border.

noting
Itay Epshtain on X: "From the people ..." / X

From the people that orchestrated #Israel annexation of the West Bank and the ancillary "judicial overhaul" come these two position papers, which will likely determine the position on #Gaza. Premeditated grave breaches of international law in two steps:

Step 1: "#Hamas enjoys broad civilian support in Gaza. Despite claims that the majority of the public in #Gaza wants peace and is captured by Hamas, data from the last two decades consistently proves the opposite."

"We arrive at the clear conclusion that claims of ideological and political distinction between #Hamas and the people of #Gaza are baseless."

Step 2: "#Israel must transfer as many #Gazans as possible to other countries; Any other alternative, including PA rule, is a strategic failure. Therefore, Gaza's population should be transferred to the Sinai Desert and the displaced absorbed in other countries."

"Despite opposition, #Israel should force the #US, #Egypt, #Turkey and #Qatar to assist in this. It is the only way to restore Israel's image following Hamas's attack."

The views promoted by the think tank led by Meir Ben-Shabbat, #Israel's former National Security Advisor have already translated into airdroped leaflets cautioning 700K+ #Palestinians in north #Gaza that they will be considered affiliated with #Hamas.

Let the record show: #Israel's attempt to forcibly transfer 1.2 million #Palestinians from north #Gaza - in grave breach of #IHL - is the precursor for denying the remaining 700K the protection from direct, indiscriminate or reckless attack which they are entitled to.

BREAKING: @mekomit expose shows that the directive to deport 2.4 million #Palestinians out of occupied #Gaza and onto #Egypt and beyond has been officially endorsed by #Israel's Ministry of Intelligence on 13 October. A war crime in the making!

#Israel's Ministry of Intelligence deportation directive outlines the four stages: 1. A call on #Palestinian civilians to vacate north #Gaza and allow for land operations; 2. Sequential land operations from north to south Gaza; 3. Leaving routes open across Rafah; 4. Establishing "tent cities" in northern Sinai and the construction of cities to resettle Palestinians in #Egypt.

I have not been able to detect, as of yet, an agenda item or government decision endorsing the directive of the Ministry. If it was indeed presented and approved it would not likely to be in the public domain.

According to @Haaretz the Prime Minister's Office stated that "this is an initial policy document, of which there are dozens at all levels of government and security branches. The question of 'the day after' was not discussed in an official Israeli forum, which is now focused on destroying the governmental and military capabilities of Hamas."

 

[lpetrich]

It is possible that that document is a hoax, some disinformation created to provoke outrage.

But if that is the case, then Israel's government isn't doing very much to assure Gazans that they can stay in the Gaza Strip if they reject Hamas.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

What I would have done is blockade the Gaza Strip and likely invade it, while trying to separate civilians from Hamas by feeding them, sheltering them, providing plenty of medical care, giving them plenty of phone and Internet connectivity, and protecting them from Hamas goons who try to get in the way. I would have avoided doing lots of bombing.

Good luck with that. In isolating Gaza, Israel did themselves no favor in segregating Hamas from the Palestinians. There is no way urban warfare won't result in awful consequences. Hamas is not easily separated from Gaza and providing aid now won't change any of that. Hamas will abuse it and the Palestinians won't care at this point.

 

[Tigers!]

Is it worth reminding people that the USA declared war on Japan for 2403 dead at Pearl Habour? What should the USA's proportional response really have been?
Perhaps just sinking the the Hiryu and Soryu?

WTF?!

Japan formerly declared war on the US.

Japan attacked USA just like Hamas attacked Israel on 7th Oct.
I am sure that many today would have cautioned the US not to respond precetitiously and or that their resposne in "proportion" hence my comment about the Hiryu and Soryu. They had a combined crew of about 2300.

 

[Tigers!]

What I would have done is blockade the Gaza Strip and likely invade it, while trying to separate civilians from Hamas by feeding them, sheltering them, providing plenty of medical care, giving them plenty of phone and Internet connectivity,

How does one tell the difference between a Hamas fighter of say 23 years old and a 23 year old Gazan? You think that Hamas would not send many of its fighters into the sheltered areas?

and protecting them from Hamas goons who try to get in the way. I would have avoided doing lots of bombing.

Who would protect the Gazans from the Hamas goons? Egypt, Israel, US, UN? Your idea sounds good but the practical difficulties are immense.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Is it worth reminding people that the USA declared war on Japan for 2403 dead at Pearl Habour? What should the USA's proportional response really have been?
Perhaps just sinking the the Hiryu and Soryu?

WTF?!

Japan formerly declared war on the US.

Japan attacked USA just like Hamas attacked Israel on 7th Oct.
I am sure that many today would have cautioned the US not to respond precetitiously and or that their resposne in "proportion" hence my comment about the Hiryu and Soryu. They had a combined crew of about 2300.

Japan formally declared war on the United States. They didn't merely attack Pearl Harbor, they sent a declaration to DC.

Japanese declaration of war on the United States and the British Empire - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

The US doesn't have a parallel to the Hamas attack in it's history.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Huh? Burned fields and fire balloons are a warning? No, they are just business as usual from Hamas.

So if someone burned your yard and sent balloons with messages to your house, you would call the police and expect them to have no reaction? Even if it happened before, the police still ought to investigate and keep a watchful eye. It's their job and what they get paid to do. They don't get paid to sit around chatting at the Dunkin Donuts and go down police slides.

They were blaming Shin Bet for ignoring the "warning" of fire balloons.

While I agree fire balloons are not good they aren't a warning because they are routine. Should Israel have leveled Gaza before to stop the fire balloons?

You'd have been happier if they leveled Gaza sooner. Personally, I don't agree with needless civilian deaths on either side. And I think that the hostage was talking about increased defenses, not leveling civilians in Gaza.

The issue was the claim that fire balloons were a warning. No, they have been an ongoing strategy for some time now--simply routine Hamas attacks that don't make the news.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

No, her words were not remotely comparable to justifying the violence committed by Hamas, but she did not mention Hamas or the Israeli government directly in her statement, although she did refer to an "apartheid government". She is after all, a Palestinian Arab, and that does reflect the opinion of most Palestinian Arabs. It's just that she opened herself up by not directly condemning Hamas directly by name for its terrorist attack, choosing instead to talk about the conflict as if it were a blood feud in which both sides were committing atrocities against each other. So I stand by what I said about spreading the lie that she has somehow endorsed Hamas in its horrific attack.

Dog whistles.

A call for an immediate cease-fire is a tacit support of the Hamas massacre. Referring to a blood feud is saying that Hamas attacked because of Israeli actions and that it's Israel's job to avoid future incidents--but the Israeli action that actually triggered it is Israel's very existence. Well, you were raped because you didn't wear modest clothing. The solution is to ignore the rapist and dress more appropriately!

There are no calls on Hamas to not shoot at Israel, only calls for Israel not to shoot back.

She mentioned neither Hamas nor the Israeli government by name. Here was the initial statement that drew all the outrage:

“I grieve the Palestinian and Israeli lives lost yesterday, today, and every day,” Tlaib said. “I am determined as ever to fight for a just future where everyone can live in peace, without fear and with true freedom, equal rights, and human dignity. The path to that future must include lifting the blockade, ending the occupation and dismantling the apartheid system that creates the suffocating, dehumanizing conditions that can lead to resistance.

“The failure to recognize the violent reality of living under siege, occupation, and apartheid makes no one safer,” she said. “No person, no child anywhere should have to suffer or live in fear of violence. We cannot ignore the humanity in each other. As long as our country provides billions in unconditional funding to support the apartheid government, this heartbreaking cycle of violence will continue.”

That was the statement that you said was comparable to blaming a woman for being raped because she was wearing skimpy attire. Again, not remotely comparable. In response to the torrent of outrage directed at her tepid statement of grievance for deaths on both sides, she issued this clarification:

"Dismantle the apartheid system"--destroy Israel, preferably by killing the Jews. Of course she would pretend she didn't think it would lead to Holocaust 2.0 but it would and she knows that.

Blaming both sides when one committed a major atrocity is actually supporting the atrocity.

“I do not support the targeting and killing of civilians, whether in Israel or Palestine,” Tlaib first told the Advance on Wednesday. “The fact that some have suggested otherwise is offensive and rooted in bigoted assumptions about my faith and ethnicity.”

Again, she does not name Hamas directly but merely "does not support" violence by both sides in this blood feud. Her protests are too tepid, which I attribute to the fact that she feels her own position undercut by the brutality of the Hamas attack. It is hard to call for reconciliation in the face of mutual atrocities by both sides. Right now, far more Palestinians have died in the resulting retaliation for October 7, so I suspect it is very hard for her to give a full-throated condemnation of terrorism initiated by Hamas when the retaliatory terrorism against the general Gazan population, not just Hamas, has been just as brutal, if not worse. The Palestinians do not have any Iron Dome with which to defend itself against Israeli bombardment.

They're tepid because she's watering them down enough that people won't see what she's really saying.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

There is no option for peace so long as the terror money flows.

So you support the US cutting off aid to Israel? Remember, money is fungible. And there is no doubt that IDF policies are a form of terrorism.

Could you please actually address the point?

I did.

The money to Hamas is contingent upon them taking the path of war. The money to Israel is not.

Prove your claim . The money to Israel does not stop even when Israel engages in terroristic activity.

Are you denying the money to the terrorist groups is for purposes other than terror?

And I'm not aware of any incident of Israel engaging in terrorist activity, although there has been some individual actions that would qualify as terrorism.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

So how many possible targets exist against Hamas in Gaza? It has been a quite a while and a lot of munitions have been plopped in Gaza.

Israel has a every right to justice, but justice isn't being applied here, retaliation is. To be clear, while planning is good, this siege should have existed for a period of time to allow a very specific coordinated attack. That isn't what we are seeing here.

Israel is exposing the Palestinians to a great deal of suffering (well above that of normal life) for nearly no tactical gain. Israel, for lack of a better phrase, is running out of time.

The atrocities committed against Israel by Hamas didn't buy them a blind check for eternity and Netanyahu is getting exposed for being the shit leader he is, and he has about completely squandered the grace period the globe provided them.

The problem is the targets are dispersed through the civilian areas. As are the tunnels. I remember from a previous conflict reports of bombed-out apartment buildings, conveniently ignoring the fact that the bombs had actually been used to collapse a tunnel running along the street. Any media that wants to operate in that area would have to ignore the elephant that was readily visible--bombs do not carve long, thin craters. A long, thin crater is because a long, thin underground void collapsed--a tunnel. (And that applies wherever you are--there's a long, thin crater on the moon believed to be due to the collapse of an ancient lava tube.)