Merged Gaza just launched an unprovoked attack on Israel

[ZiprHead]

we involved ourselves in a Syrian civil war

You did not merely involve yourself in civil war there. You instigated and supported it. You armed ISIS terrorists hoping they would overthrow Assad. And you are still illegally occupying part of the country and stealing their oil. Ukraine - same thing. You are totally responsible for that. You armed ukrainian Nazis hoping they would overthrow Putin. You openly discuss in policy papers your plans of provoking Iran into something which can be construed into something favorable for US interests.

 

[bilby]

Barring anyone exceptionally abhorrent being put forward by the Republicans next year

Sure. They might have someone who isn't exceptionally abhorrent waiting in the wings. Maybe just someone who's unexceptional in his abhorrence.

I'm not sure who that might be, but I guess there's someone.

 

[bilby]

Why should the Jews leave their houses because you think it might be a good idea?

Well, because it might be a good idea.

Duh.

 

[bilby]

There are 7.2million Jews in Israel, who will take them in?

Mostly the USA. They already treat Israel as though it were a part of their country, and they already have a large Jewish community who can make the Israelis feel at home. Settling them in the US would likely save the USA a very large amount of money, given that they would no longer need to fund weapons and other support for a nation halfway around the world.

 

[TomC]

Hence, human shields serve no other purpose than to shield military targets, and your interpretation is that this means they can be killed in order to eliminate the targets.

Israelis didn't make those Gazans into human shields.

Those human shields serve more purposes than protecting Hamas leadership and their military assets. They also provide the basis for lies about who made the choices here.

Which is the Islamist powers. From Hamas to Iran to Qatar, the list is long.

There's plenty of blame to spread around here, it goes back over a century. But pretending that Hamas using Gazan children as human shields is evidence that Israel is the ethical problem is ridiculous. No. It's Hamas.
Tom

 

[laughing dog]

Hence, human shields serve no other purpose than to shield military targets, and your interpretation is that this means they can be killed in order to eliminate the targets.

Israelis didn't make those Gazans into human shields.

Those human shields serve more purposes than protecting Hamas leadership and their military assets. They also provide the basis for lies about who made the choices here.

Which is the Islamist powers. From Hamas to Iran to Qatar, the list is long.

There's plenty of blame to spread around here, it goes back over a century. But pretending that Hamas using Gazan children as human shields is evidence that Israel is the ethical problem is ridiculous. No. It's Hamas.
Tom

Declaring every resident of Gaza who happens to be within bomblast as a human shield is intellectually lazy ( or dishonest), and dismissive of the human tragedy. The ethical problems are not limited to one group here. It is blatantly bigoted to claim otherwise.

 

[lpetrich]

Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez on X: "Two million people. Half children. Starved. Bombed. Cut from communication.
Have those facilitating this thought much about the future this leaves us? No.
Some may dismiss a ceasefire as naïve or worse. Yet who has a plan for what follows this destruction? What do we call that?" / X - Oct 28

Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez on X: "Now more than ever, we must emphasize the importance of separating people from governments.
Antisemitism is disgusting and unacceptable. We have a responsibility to defend our Jewish brothers, sisters, and siblings from hatred. No movement of integrity should tolerate it. Ever." / X - Oct 30


Adam Shatz on X: "Question to the @nytimes: why is the paper referring— in its *reporting*—to Rashida Tlaib and other Democrats calling for a ceasefire as ‘far left’? Tlaib, A0C, Omar et al are Sanders Democrats. The effect (if not the intention) is to make them seem beyond the pale. They are not." / X
then
Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez on X: "66% of American voters across all political affiliations support a ceasefire, but if you support one in Congress you’re “far left.”
Left of what? " / X

Referring to how much aid Israel gets,
Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez on X: "Our country subjects people in need of food assistance to a litany of conditions to qualify, yet refuses to place a *single* condition on billions of public funds to prevent enabling an atrocity.
It is appalling. Thousands of children, dead. This is the result of “no red lines.”" / X

 

[Harry Bosch]

Why should the Jews leave their houses because you think it might be a good idea?

Well, because it might be a good idea.

Duh.

Yea, that's the problem. Jews don't want outsiders telling them what a good idea is. They want control of their own destiny. That won't work if they are small minorities in large countries.

 

[Copernicus]

Hence, human shields serve no other purpose than to shield military targets, and your interpretation is that this means they can be killed in order to eliminate the targets.

Israelis didn't make those Gazans into human shields.

I think that Laughing Dog made the right point about this already. Israel is using bombs on densely populated areas of Gaza (as most areas are in the Gaza Strip). It claims that it is going after military targets, but that is no excuse to blame the victims, who may not be aware that they are in an area Israel is about to strike. Nor is it clear that Israel actually has what the US likes to call "actionable intelligence" when going after a specific military figure, such as the alleged Hamas leader that was being targeted in the densely populated Jabalya camp neighborhood. The last IDF spokesman I saw who was trying to justify the strike admitted that they weren't sure that they had actually killed the target. Of course, we have pictures of the injured children and adults that they did kill.

Those human shields serve more purposes than protecting Hamas leadership and their military assets. They also provide the basis for lies about who made the choices here.

No, they don't. Both sides are making choices. Both sides can choose not to kill civilians or use them as hostages or shields. Israel can choose to refrain from using bombs to go after suspected Hamas target. Ground operations would make more sense, but, of course, those would be more risky to the lives of Israeli soldiers.

Which is the Islamist powers. From Hamas to Iran to Qatar, the list is long.

And it includes Israel.

There's plenty of blame to spread around here, it goes back over a century. But pretending that Hamas using Gazan children as human shields is evidence that Israel is the ethical problem is ridiculous. No. It's Hamas.
Tom

Israel is using Hamas as an excuse for deliberately targeting areas where it knows children are living, and that is a clear violation of international law.

 

[Arctish]

Hamas presents new charter accepting a Palestine based on 1967 borders.

Hamas has unveiled a new political programme softening its stance on Israel by accepting the idea of a Palestinian state in territories occupied by Israel in the six-day war of 1967.

The new document states the Islamist movement it is not seeking war with the Jewish people – only with Zionism that drives the occupation of Palestine.


The new document also insists that Hamas is a not a revolutionary force that seeks to intervene in other countries, a commitment that is likely to be welcomed by other states such as Egypt.

Hamas said set to recognize Palestine on 1967 borders, but not Israel.

In bid to bolster its regional legitimacy, terror group will also break off ties with Muslim Brotherhood

Hamas Foreign Minister: We Accept Two-State Solution With '67 Borders

Hamas' Deputy Foreign Minister Ghazi Hamad told NPR's Robert Siegel that the Islamic political party has accepted a two-state solution that respects the 1967 borders.

Robert asked Hamad in a very straight forward way: "If Israel were to accept a two-state solution in which Palestine would be in Gaza and the West Bank and have its capital in Jerusalem, is that an acceptable aim that Hamas is striving for or is that in and of itself insufficient because there would still be a state of Israel?"

"Look, we said, frankly, we accept the state and '67 borders. This was mentioned many times and we repeated many times," said Hamad.

The NPR interview was in 2011. The other two are from 2017.

Hamas has been offering for over a decade to recognize the 1967 borders. The PA recognized the 1967 borders in 1993 when the Oslo Accords were signed. Anyone still claiming that Hamas and the PA won't ever accept Jews living in Israel is either uninformed about what the Palestinians will accept, repeating bigoted racist Zionist dogma, or both.

 

[Tigers!]

Why should the Jews leave their houses because you think it might be a good idea?

Well, because it might be a good idea.

Duh.

Why don't you start the ball rolling? You could give your home to another and go to somewhere else on the globe. Where does not matter.
Always easier to get someone else to do what you are not prepared to do yourself.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Israel appears to be bombing the tunnels in the north. They told the civilians to go to the south. Hamas guns them down on the road if they actually do so. (We have video of a supposed Israeli attack where the damage is completely inconsistent with anything Israel could have done. It's quite consistent with forces on the ground shooting people who were fleeing, though.)

Reputable news outlets report bombing everywhere. Despite your claims, there are independent reporters in Gaza.

Being an independent reporter in Gaza would be incredibly hazardous. It's just they don't admit they're reporting what Hamas says to except occasionally from a retired reporter or the like--people who would never be going back and who don't work for anyone who would be going back.

And, sure, they're widespread--but so is the tunnel network. Given a considerable relationship between the bombings and the location of tunnels I think the most likely explanation is they are bombing the tunnels. One notable statistic: They are averaging about two dead (by Hamas reporting) per bomb dropped (daily death toll/daily bombs dropped.) That's not dropping on people, that has to be dropping mostly on things.

 

[Tigers!]

There are 7.2million Jews in Israel, who will take them in?

Mostly the USA. They already treat Israel as though it were a part of their country, and they already have a large Jewish community who can make the Israelis feel at home. Settling them in the US would likely save the USA a very large amount of money, given that they would no longer need to fund weapons and other support for a nation halfway around the world.

I cannot image any government of the USA allowing in 7.2million people. They'd much rather have the Jews in Israel rather than on the continental USA.
Oh wait if they get them to enter illegally via the southern border that will be ok.

 

[Tigers!]

Why should the Jews leave their houses because you think it might be a good idea?

Well, because it might be a good idea.

Duh.

Yea, that's the problem. Jews don't want outsiders telling them what a good idea is. They want control of their own destiny. That won't work if they are small minorities in large countries.

I've never noticed you septics being happy to listen to outsiders telling you what a good idea might be. Just witness the dismissive attitude giving on these fora to advice on how to do something about your horrendous gun problem.

 

[Arctish]

There are 7.2million Jews in Israel, who will take them in?

Mostly the USA. They already treat Israel as though it were a part of their country, and they already have a large Jewish community who can make the Israelis feel at home. Settling them in the US would likely save the USA a very large amount of money, given that they would no longer need to fund weapons and other support for a nation halfway around the world.

I cannot image any government of the USA allowing in 7.2million people. They'd much rather have the Jews in Israel rather than on the continental USA.
Oh wait if they get them to enter illegally via the southern border that will be ok.

Why are we talking about evacuating all of Israel when the obvious next step is Israel recognizing the 1967 borders and pulling its citizens out of the illegal settlements they built?

I mean, they're illegal. So its obvious Israelis have no legitimate business living there. And the PA has made it clear that if those folks want to stay, they can. They'd have to give up their Israeli citizenship and become citizens of the Palestinian State, but that's a pretty good deal for illegal immigrants.

And as far as housing goes, the US has been funding all that housing construction for years. So as long as the US is willing to give the Israelis billions in aid, there's no problem settling the settlers in legal settlements.

Right?

 

[TomC]

Declaring every resident of Gaza who happens to be within bomblast as a human shield is intellectually lazy ( or dishonest), and dismissive of the human tragedy.

Putting all those Gazan kids into harms way is not something Israel picked.

Islamic militants, including but not limited to, Hamas chose that. Islamicist tactics are why the Palestinian children are suffering, not Israeli.
Tom

 

[Loren Pechtel]

We don't know how it developed. What we can say is that it was far too well organized to be a response to the supposed trigger.

Ah, I see.

You are just as ignorant as Derec and unwilling to do any research yourself.

We know we can't actually do research. That's asking for PLO military secrets!

What we can say is that it was clearly a pre-planned move. You simply don't do something that big from scratch that fast.

 

[Tigers!]

Hamas has been offering for over a decade to recognize the 1967 borders. The PA recognized the 1967 borders in 1993 when the Oslo Accords were signed. Anyone still claiming that Hamas and the PA won't ever accept Jews living in Israel is either uninformed about what the Palestinians will accept, repeating bigoted racist Zionist dogma, or both.

If you could please cite chapter and verse where Hamas explicitly recognises Israel right to exist would be useful. You can recognise the 1967 boundaries and still not recognise Israel's right to exist.
If I were a Jew I would not trust anything Hamas says except when they say we will kill you or want you gone.
"From the river to the sea" has an explicit meaning and Jews are not a part of it.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

It is impossible to avoid the deaths of civilians in a war, but the attacking forces are expected to refrain unless there is some unavoidable excuse.

Lemme know when someone important holds Palestinians to that standard. I'm not seeing it, ever.
Tom

Tu quoque fallacy.

Also, "someone important" did hold Palestinians to that standard, which is why Fatah and the PA in the West Bank, led by Abbas, has forsworn terrorism in favor of seeking a diplomatic solution to the problems in Israel and the Occupied Territories.

Let me know when someone important in Israel (or important to Israel) decides to support that effort instead of simply capitalizing on it.

Forsworn terrorism?!?!

I honestly can't tell if you're pretending to be surprised or if you really are this clueless about Palestinian politics and why the PLO doesn't bomb places anymore.

They still pay terrorists or their families.

I wasn't surprised, I was calling the notion nuts.

Palestinian Authority Martyrs Fund - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[laughing dog]

Declaring every resident of Gaza who happens to be within bomblast as a human shield is intellectually lazy ( or dishonest), and dismissive of the human tragedy.

Putting all those Gazan kids into harms way is not something Israel picked.

Islamic militants, including but not limited to, Hamas chose that. Islamicist tactics are why the Palestinian children are suffering, not Israeli.
Tom

No need to provide more evidence if my observations (including the one you clipped out). For some obscure reason, you appear to feel that the IDF is acting against its will when dropping bombs on Gazan children. When IDF violence injures or kills a civilian, the IDF is responsible for its actions. It is literally counterfactual to claim otherwise. Even if one approves of the actions by the IDF it is counterfactual to claim they are not responsible for their actions.