Merged Gaza just launched an unprovoked attack on Israel

[Tigers!]

There are 7.2million Jews in Israel, who will take them in?

Mostly the USA. They already treat Israel as though it were a part of their country, and they already have a large Jewish community who can make the Israelis feel at home. Settling them in the US would likely save the USA a very large amount of money, given that they would no longer need to fund weapons and other support for a nation halfway around the world.

I cannot image any government of the USA allowing in 7.2million people. They'd much rather have the Jews in Israel rather than on the continental USA.
Oh wait if they get them to enter illegally via the southern border that will be ok.

Why are we talking about evacuating all of Israel when the obvious next step is Israel recognizing the 1967 borders and pulling its citizens out of the illegal settlements they built?

I mean, they're illegal. So its obvious Israelis have no legitimate business living there. And the PA has made it clear that if those folks want to stay, they can. They'd have to give up their Israeli citizenship and become citizens of the Palestinian State, but that's a pretty good deal for illegal immigrants.

And as far as housing goes, the US has been funding all that housing construction for years. So as long as the US is willing to give the Israelis billions in aid, there's no problem settling the settlers in legal settlements.

Right?

See Bilby's post no. 1163. I was replying to that, not explicitly to anything else you may have written.

 

[Tigers!]

There are 7.2million Jews in Israel, who will take them in?

Mostly the USA. They already treat Israel as though it were a part of their country, and they already have a large Jewish community who can make the Israelis feel at home. Settling them in the US would likely save the USA a very large amount of money, given that they would no longer need to fund weapons and other support for a nation halfway around the world.

I cannot image any government of the USA allowing in 7.2million people. They'd much rather have the Jews in Israel rather than on the continental USA.
Oh wait if they get them to enter illegally via the southern border that will be ok.

Why are we talking about evacuating all of Israel when the obvious next step is Israel recognizing the 1967 borders and pulling its citizens out of the illegal settlements they built?

I mean, they're illegal. So its obvious Israelis have no legitimate business living there. And the PA has made it clear that if those folks want to stay, they can. They'd have to give up their Israeli citizenship and become citizens of the Palestinian State, but that's a pretty good deal for illegal immigrants.

And as far as housing goes, the US has been funding all that housing construction for years. So as long as the US is willing to give the Israelis billions in aid, there's no problem settling the settlers in legal settlements.

Right?

Israel needs to stop those settlements. No argument from me on that.

 

[TomC]

For some obscure reason, you appear to feel that the IDF is acting against its will when dropping bombs on Gazan children.

I said no such thing.

But I see little reason to keep repeating myself.
Tom

 

[laughing dog]

Israel appears to be bombing the tunnels in the north. They told the civilians to go to the south. Hamas guns them down on the road if they actually do so. (We have video of a supposed Israeli attack where the damage is completely inconsistent with anything Israel could have done. It's quite consistent with forces on the ground shooting people who were fleeing, though.)

Reputable news outlets report bombing everywhere. Despite your claims, there are independent reporters in Gaza.

Being an independent reporter in Gaza would be incredibly hazardous. It's just they don't admit they're reporting what Hamas says to except occasionally from a retired reporter or the like--people who would never be going back and who don't work for anyone who would be going back.

Please stop confusing your uninformed and bigoted opinions with fact. I realize this is difficult but independent reporters can make independent reports despite what you imagine.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

10/7 showed that the barriers they created with Gaza were inadequate.

10/7 showed that all possible barriers they could create with Gaza would inevitably be inadequate.

Perhaps the solution is to stop building fucking barriers.

So you want the Jews exterminated? Because that's the result of what you're asking for.

No, I don't. Many of my family are Jews.

And no, it isn't. One possible result of what I am asking for is the elimination of Israel as a nation state; That's absolutely not the same thing as the extermination of the Jews (most of whom don't even live in the Middle East).

Unlike the Gazans, most Jewish people in Israel have both the means and the opportunity to go somewhere else, rather than let their neighbours kill them.

So you support ethnic cleansing.

As for opportunity--to where? Most are not dual nationals. And there is no place other than Israel where they haven't faced major antisemitism. The Holocaust was abnormal only in size, not in kind. They finally get a place where they aren't persecuted and the world tries to persecute them anyway. There has been substantial immigration into Israel from Jews fleeing deteriorating conditions elsewhere.

Note that you're advocating breaking nuclear diplomacy 101: Don't back a nuclear power into a corner.

Israel, as a nation, should never have been established; It's one of the worst mistakes ever made by a British Empire that made some real doozies.

Undoing that mistake will inevitably be very painful for a lot of people; But it certainly needn't entail the extermination of anyone.

Right now, the displacement of a large number of Israeli Jews seems preferable over the extermination of the Gazans; I recognise that you don't care about the latter, but that's a major failing on your part, and mot some kind of law of nature.

I care far more about the side that didn't choose war than the side that chose war crimes.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

No insurgency has been defeated by reducing it's ability to recruit. You defeat insurgencies by removing the funding.

Hamas is funded by Qatar. Also Hamas was fighting Assad and US government was fine with it.
So.....

Hamas fighting Assad?!?! How?

Easy. Qatar was the main funder of war against Assad in the ME and the main funder of Hamas.

They do not share a border, nor does any legal route exist between the two. They simply had no way to participate in any significant fashion.

 

[laughing dog]

For some obscure reason, you appear to feel that the IDF is acting against its will when dropping bombs on Gazan children.

I said no such thing.

You do when you lay blame only on one party.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

You want to prioritize military operations over the safety of civilians, but the Geneva Protocols say the opposite. Moreover, as I pointed out, "human shield" implies that something is being shielded, and logic suggests it is what those using human shields do not want destroyed--military assets. Hence, human shields serve no other purpose than to shield military targets, and your interpretation is that this means they can be killed in order to eliminate the targets. So why have any international law at all that says human shields cannot be targeted? They can be killed simply because of what they are--targets painted on enemy military assets. In order not to kill them, you have to refrain from destroying what they are being used to shield. The business about picnics and weddings was just my sarcastic way of pointing out that they are shielding what you think cancels the need to protect their lives.

Geneva doesn't require what you think it requires. It does not require that you not hit a target protected by human shields.

When IDF spokespersons claim that they are doing everything they can to protect civilian lives, I can only roll my eyes. They are doing everything they can to rationalize and justify killing anyone who gets in the way of a suspected military target. They think that dropping leaflets to tell everyone to skedaddle somehow exonerates their depraved indifference to the lives of civilian Palestinians, including men, women, children. Anyone.

On the scale they are currently operating there's not a lot they can do to avoid casualties amongst the human shields.

Israel's "leaflet bombs" are a sick joke. A pretense to justify violating international law. There are no safe areas to evacuate to, and it is complete nonsense to think that people who don't evacuate are therefore disposable collateral damage. The whole point of the order for civilians to evacuate the north was a message to the IDF that they could attack all targets in the north, because it was the fault of those who failed to heed the warnings that they were there. The leaflets even warned that they could be mistaken for Hamas terrorists, if they did not flee south, which Israel is also bombarding daily. Israel has even targeted an ambulance, because it suspected the ambulance was being used by Hamas. What was the compelling reason to kill innocent civilians in the vicinity of that ambulance? Was it launching rockets into Israel? I've seen pictures of the blood-spattered ambulance. Even if it contained wounded Hamas combatants, they were not posing an immediate threat to Israel.

There is no compelling need to kill civilians. There is a compelling reason to hit Hamas and killing the civilians is unavoidable.

But what it seems you are saying here is that there is no compelling reason NOT to kill civilians if the reason is to hit Hamas, and that is what compels IDF targeting priorities. The attacking forces don't need to exercise any restraint, because all those people should have paid attention to the leaflets and fled, even if fleeing was impossible or pointless (because Israel is bombing designated safe areas on account of the IDF thinking they harbor Hamas facilities).

The attacking force should not use force beyond what is necessary to accomplish it's military objective. Drop the smallest bomb that will destroy the target. Use guided weapons to reduce the misses. It's not required not to pull the trigger.

As for the ambulance, we don't know the details but there's no reason Palestinian ambulances should get special treatment. Not only has Israel repeatedly caught them smuggling but the Red Crescent (equivalent of the Red Cross) refuses to condemn such misuse. This forfeits the protections that would normally be associated with an ambulance.

So, again, human shields, human shmields. Wherever there are a lot of civilians, Hamas must be using them as human shields, so bomb the hell out of everything, no matter how densely populated with people from all walks of life. You can't be so clueless as to be surprised that people are now calling Israel out for committing genocide. The Biden administration is already feeling intense heat to change its support for Israel, but the Netanyahu government doesn't care. They prefer Donald Trump over Joe Biden anyway, so no big deal if Biden gets raked over the coals politically for his support of Israel.

People keep claiming Israel is committing genocide--yet the Palestinian population is growing. I find the claims of genocide laughable.

They did take the gloves off this time, that's all. The destruction pattern seems to line up with known tunnels but we haven't seen any images from close enough up to see if that's what's actually happening. Hamas probably learned from previous incidents where their pictures were enough to show that the bombs had collapsed tunnels and now avoids any photography that would show the truth.

Hamas knew what would happen when they launched their massacre, why are you not blaming them for the expected result?

 

[Arctish]

Hamas has been offering for over a decade to recognize the 1967 borders. The PA recognized the 1967 borders in 1993 when the Oslo Accords were signed. Anyone still claiming that Hamas and the PA won't ever accept Jews living in Israel is either uninformed about what the Palestinians will accept, repeating bigoted racist Zionist dogma, or both.

If you could please cite chapter and verse where Hamas explicitly recognises Israel right to exist would be useful. You can recognise the 1967 boundaries and still not recognise Israel's right to exist.

Don't let the perfect become the enemy of the good.

Mutual recognition of borders is huge. The PA has recognized the Israeli government, the Right of Israel to exist, the Right of Israelis to exist in peace and security, and iirc a few more rights as well. So what if Hamas holds out on official recognition of Israel's government for now? Recognizing 'here is where our land ends and your land begins' has always been the first step in settling land disputes. It's long past time for Israel to get on with it.

If I were a Jew I would not trust anything Hamas says except when they say we will kill you or want you gone.
"From the river to the sea" has an explicit meaning and Jews are not a part of it.

If I were an Israeli I would be glad to hear Hamas was offering to recognize the 1967 borders, and I would want my government to do the same.

Trust can come later.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Yea, that's just not going to happen. To the Jews living in Israel, Israel is their home. They are a hated minority in almost all other countries in the world. Where are they suppose to go? There is even great antisemitism in the US.

Back to being second class citizens.

Fundamentally, that's what this is about--an abuse victim threw off the yoke. I'm sure you're aware that the most dangerous time for a domestic abuse victim is when they leave--and this is the same thing, just on a much larger scale.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Declaring every resident of Gaza who happens to be within bomblast as a human shield is intellectually lazy ( or dishonest), and dismissive of the human tragedy. The ethical problems are not limited to one group here. It is blatantly bigoted to claim otherwise.

If they're placed on the target they are definitely a human shield. If they are incidentally on the target and prevented from leaving (Hamas appears to be shooting those who flee and blaming it on Israeli attacks--they slipped up and released a video that doesn't make any sense other than as people gunned down as they were fleeing) they are a human shield.

 

[laughing dog]

Hamas knew what would happen when they launched their massacre, why are you not blaming them for the expected result?

Israel knew what would happen when it worked to divide Palestinian governance between Fatah and Hamas, so why are you not blaming Israel for the expected results?

The point is that there is plenty of blame to go around all parties here.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I think that Laughing Dog made the right point about this already. Israel is using bombs on densely populated areas of Gaza (as most areas are in the Gaza Strip). It claims that it is going after military targets, but that is no excuse to blame the victims, who may not be aware that they are in an area Israel is about to strike. Nor is it clear that Israel actually has what the US likes to call "actionable intelligence" when going after a specific military figure, such as the alleged Hamas leader that was being targeted in the densely populated Jabalya camp neighborhood. The last IDF spokesman I saw who was trying to justify the strike admitted that they weren't sure that they had actually killed the target. Of course, we have pictures of the injured children and adults that they did kill.

Well, duh, how would they be expected to be certain they got their target??

And note that the pictures are often not true. They've even been caught doing a sloppy job with AI creating victim pictures.

Those human shields serve more purposes than protecting Hamas leadership and their military assets. They also provide the basis for lies about who made the choices here.

No, they don't. Both sides are making choices. Both sides can choose not to kill civilians or use them as hostages or shields. Israel can choose to refrain from using bombs to go after suspected Hamas target. Ground operations would make more sense, but, of course, those would be more risky to the lives of Israeli soldiers.

The problem is you aren't giving Israel any option to protect itself. Are you another that wants them to die?

Which is the Islamist powers. From Hamas to Iran to Qatar, the list is long.

And it includes Israel.

Israel is an Islamist power?!

There's plenty of blame to spread around here, it goes back over a century. But pretending that Hamas using Gazan children as human shields is evidence that Israel is the ethical problem is ridiculous. No. It's Hamas.
Tom

Israel is using Hamas as an excuse for deliberately targeting areas where it knows children are living, and that is a clear violation of international law.

I suggest actually looking at what the law says, not what the propaganda says it says.

There is no rule against targeting a location known to have children. The rule is not "don't target civilians", the rule is "only target military". It's just Hamas puts it's military stuff all through civilian areas so when it's hit civilians die.

Given that it seems to be running about 2 dead (assuming you believe Hamas and their numbers are usually way high) per bomb it's pretty clear Israel is targeting things. Likely the tunnels.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Hamas has been offering for over a decade to recognize the 1967 borders. The PA recognized the 1967 borders in 1993 when the Oslo Accords were signed. Anyone still claiming that Hamas and the PA won't ever accept Jews living in Israel is either uninformed about what the Palestinians will accept, repeating bigoted racist Zionist dogma, or both.

I haven't seen the text--don't believe what they say is in the text, look at the actual words.

However, it doesn't even matter:

In the biggest concession, the new document states that Hamas “considers the establishment of a fully sovereign and independent Palestinian state, with Jerusalem as its capital along the lines of 4 June 1967, with the return of the refugees and the displaced to their homes from which they were expelled, to be a formula of national consensus”.

Right of return--destruction of Israel. This is something they can never agree to.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Why are we talking about evacuating all of Israel when the obvious next step is Israel recognizing the 1967 borders and pulling its citizens out of the illegal settlements they built?

Bilby explicitly called for the ethnic cleansing of Israel.

And your post about Hamas was "peace" for 67 borders and right of return--which is just another way of bringing about the same thing. You apparently don't realize you're also asking for the ethnic cleansing of Israel.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Declaring every resident of Gaza who happens to be within bomblast as a human shield is intellectually lazy ( or dishonest), and dismissive of the human tragedy.

Putting all those Gazan kids into harms way is not something Israel picked.

Islamic militants, including but not limited to, Hamas chose that. Islamicist tactics are why the Palestinian children are suffering, not Israeli.
Tom

No need to provide more evidence if my observations (including the one you clipped out). For some obscure reason, you appear to feel that the IDF is acting against its will when dropping bombs on Gazan children. When IDF violence injures or kills a civilian, the IDF is responsible for its actions. It is literally counterfactual to claim otherwise. Even if one approves of the actions by the IDF it is counterfactual to claim they are not responsible for their actions.

The hostage taker is always responsible for the dead hostage even if they die from a police bullet.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Israel appears to be bombing the tunnels in the north. They told the civilians to go to the south. Hamas guns them down on the road if they actually do so. (We have video of a supposed Israeli attack where the damage is completely inconsistent with anything Israel could have done. It's quite consistent with forces on the ground shooting people who were fleeing, though.)

Reputable news outlets report bombing everywhere. Despite your claims, there are independent reporters in Gaza.

Being an independent reporter in Gaza would be incredibly hazardous. It's just they don't admit they're reporting what Hamas says to except occasionally from a retired reporter or the like--people who would never be going back and who don't work for anyone who would be going back.

Please stop confusing your uninformed and bigoted opinions with fact. I realize this is difficult but independent reporters can make independent reports despite what you imagine.

Until Hamas identifies them and kills them. Hamas would regard an independent reporter as a spy.

 

[steve_bank]

Right of return - right to get back land siexed by Israel, and cntunues to do so in the West Bnank.

Zionists think they have a 2000 year old god given right to the land they are freedom fighters.

Palestinians who have been living in the area for a thousand years don't want to be kicked out and want their own independent state are Jew hating terrorists.

I think Jerusalem was supposed to have been an open city shared by both sides. Israel declared it part of and the capitol of Israel, and the slow motion ethnic cleansing began.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Hamas knew what would happen when they launched their massacre, why are you not blaming them for the expected result?

Israel knew what would happen when it worked to divide Palestinian governance between Fatah and Hamas, so why are you not blaming Israel for the expected results?

The point is that there is plenty of blame to go around all parties here.

Yeah, Israel caused the Fatah/Hamas civil war. Since it wasn't paraded before the world press there was no reason for human shields. Nor was it conducted with heavy weapons. Thus it was quite good at killing combatants and sparing innocents.

The terror would happen anyway as it's determined by the money and weapons being provided, not by the name of the group that gets the stuff. It goes to whoever will cause the most trouble with it, the name is irrelevant.

 

[laughing dog]

Hamas knew what would happen when they launched their massacre, why are you not blaming them for the expected result?

Israel knew what would happen when it worked to divide Palestinian governance between Fatah and Hamas, so why are you not blaming Israel for the expected results?

The point is that there is plenty of blame to go around all parties here.

Yeah, Israel caused the Fatah/Hamas civil war. Since it wasn't paraded before the world press there was no reason for human shields. Nor was it conducted with heavy weapons. Thus it was quite good at killing combatants and sparing innocents.

The terror would happen anyway as it's determined by the money and weapons being provided, not by the name of the group that gets the stuff. It goes to whoever will cause the most trouble with it, the name is irrelevant.

How glibly you slide over reality to defend your biases. Without Israel’s support, it is debatable whether Hamas would have been as successful and that Gaza would have abandoned by Israel.

The notion that the outcome is identical regardless of the actors is lunacy. Is everything alright?