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Merged Gaza just launched an unprovoked attack on Israel

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Well, obviously, I'd
I was asking a serious question. Can you even formulate a strategy you think Israel should have pursued instead of hitting Hamas in Gaza hard? Or do you just think they should have done nothing in response to 10/7?

[*]Turn everyone's water off
Israel doesn't supply that much water to Gaza anyway. And what do you think of Hamas digging up water pipes to turn into rocket bodies?
[*]Tell everyone to flee south and then bomb the south
The intensity of operations in the North is obviously far higher than in the South. So the directive was to save lives.
IDF never said they would not bomb at all in the South, since there is Hamas there too. Duh!
[*]Tell people to go to Egypt and then bomb the crossing to Egypt
I think multiple sites close to the Rafah crossing were hit. I don't know what was there, and neither do you.
[*]Bomb a refugee camp and multiple hospitals
"Refugee camp" is a misnomer. It was a refugee camp in 1948, 75 years ago, but now these "refugee camps" are just cities in their own right. And Hamas is putting infrastructure inside or underneath civilian buildings. It is necessary to hit Hamas tunnels.
The Baptist hospital was hit by Islamic Jihad rocket that misfired. IDF was bombing close to various hospitals, yes, because Hamas was in those locations. But they did not hit hospitals directly.
[*]Kill 10,000 people, mostly civilians
How do you know that? Because Hamas health ministry says so?
Also, note the propaganda with "children". "Children" in this context just means <18. But Hamas and Islamic Jihad routinely use teenage combatants under 18.
So you can't even claim that all the "children" are non-combatants.
Some examples of this from the West Bank:
In Jenin, a family mourns teenage son as militants hail 'martyr'
These are the 3 teens the Jenin terrorists sent to die

[*]Bomb the tunnels where the hostages are
It is unknown where the hostages are. I hope IDF can rescue as many as possible, but it is a difficult task. What should be a total non-starter is releasing >5000 Palestinian terrorists for the hostages.

On the other hand, maybe Israel could reduce some of these things. We should consider that for a moment. Hmmm... naw, fuck it. Israel should also send a nuke to Gaza.
Yeah, that's just a politician bloviating, not a serious proposal.

But seriously, what is your proposal? What would you do?
 

Israel abandoning the Oslo Accords damaged what trust existed at the time the Accords were signed. Israel promoting a man who claimed to have deliberately sabotaged the Oslo Accords to the position of Prime Minister destroyed what little trust remained.
Israel abandoned them after Palestine abandoned them.

I'm not going to bother with the rest of your post because it's just your usual home made bullshit but ^this part^ is an outright falsehood.

The Oslo Accords outlined a series of steps to be made by both Israel and the PA within a set time frame. So unlike your nebulous claims about Ehud Barak's offer, we can look at the actual agreed-upon actions to be undertaken by both parties and we can see when and how the process ground to a halt.

Here is a quick overview. The hand over of territory stopped when Rabin was assassinated, the process briefly resumed under Peres, but then it completely stopped when Netanyahu and the rightwingers took control.

Israel abandoned the Oslo Accords.

History doesn't go away just because you ignore it. And it won't change, either.

The Palestinians never complied in the first place.


Interesting article.

If you had ever read the Accords you would know that what it says about Area C is incorrect. Also, there appears to be some weasel wording over whether the Accords established a Palestinian State, the foundation for a Palestinian State, or self-governance for the Palestinian people in a part of Palestine that they lived in and controlled which might be called a State or might be called something else.


I'm guessing this opinion piece was written before the PA arrested thousands of Palestinian protesters so that the implementation of the Accords could continue unimpeded by the Palestinian side. Israel OTOH didn't even go after people credibly believed to have been complicit in the assassination of Yitzhak Rabin, much less take on all those armed, violent settlers.
I've seen a more detailed breakdown of Palestinian non-compliance but I'm not finding it right now.

Please try to find it. I've been thinking about restarting that old thread on the Oslo Accords. Every source of information would be useful for the discussion.

Also, just to be clear, Israel abandoned the Oslo Accords when Rabin was assassinated, as Netanyahu and his political allies had wanted. Its refusal to hand over Area C within the 18 month timeframe outlined in the Accords was a clear and obvious failure to comply, just as Netanyahu greenlighting the construction of new settlements in the West Bank was a clear and obvious 'fuck you' to the Palestinians and the peace process.
 
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Suspect arrested in killing of Detroit synagogue leader Samantha Woll

A suspect has been taken into custody in last month’s killing of Detroit synagogue president Samantha Woll, Detroit Police said Wednesday.

In a statement on X, Police Chief James E. White said details of the investigation will remain confidential at this time.

“While this is an encouraging development in our desire to bring closure for Ms. Woll’s family, it does not represent the conclusion of our work in this case,” the statement reads.

Investigators are treating her death as arising from a domestic dispute and not extremism, according to a law enforcement source familiar with the investigation.
 
So you accept that Hamas is committing war crimes and yet you're protecting them.
The idea that criminals don't deserve the protection of the law went out in the Middle Ages.

Committing crimes doesn't make you a valid target for any crime others might want to commit against you.

Murdering a murderer is still murder.
 
Don't fall into the have-to-do-something trap. Just about everything done because something must be done ends up being the wrong thing.
Current IDF behaviour in Gaza being an excellent example of this.

Something did need to be done in response to the Gazan attacks and hostage taking.

Genocidal warfare wasn't the right thing, though. It never is.
 
I care far more about the side that didn't choose war than the side that chose war crimes.
Both sides chose war.

Both sides are choosing war crimes.
Both sides chose war? No, Israel chose to not sit there and be slaughtered.
By engaging in war or are you saying Israel is responding with terrorism?
Can you ever actually address the matter rather than find something to nitpick?
That is your standard evasion whenever someone hits the point on the head. Either Israel's choice to not sit there and be slaughtered was to declare war or to engage in terrorism. You still have yet to answer the question. Which is truly revealing.
You seem to think Israel has engaged in terrorism.

And you still haven't addressed the original question: What should Israel have done?
 
Why do Palestinian deaths matter but Jewish deaths don't matter?
Who said this???
Indirectly, multiple people on here.

10/7 won't kill Israel, thus Israel isn't justified in shooting back in a fashion that can harm civilians.

But when the shoe is on the other foot the civilian deaths matter.
My parents brought me up that bad behavior on the part of others did not justify bad behavior on my part.

Let me make this clear. Killing civilians is wrong. Doesn't matter who does the killing nor does it matter who the victims are.

Unlike you, there are those who believe it doesn't matter if you think the cause is just or legal. It is still wrong.

So you can shove that "Israeli deaths don't matter" back up the orifice from which it originated.
This isn't a Dungeons and Dragons world where there's always a clear path to good.

And by saying Israel shouldn't act you are saying they should simply accept more massacres. Jewish lives don't matter.
 
It is both war and terrorism. Hamas waddles and quacks, it's a nation, it can declare war. However, it did so by massacring civilians and taking hostages. That's Nuremburg level behavior.
It doesn't even rise to what happened in Rwanda. So enough of Nuremberg and needless hyperbole. What Hamas did in October was nothing short of an atrocity.

But they aren't a nation state. They are a bizarre convergence of gang warlords, insurgency, terrorists. You can't wage war against them because they lack government leadership, borders, or international recognition as a nation state that allows for war like outcomes.
What's Rwanda got to do with it? Besides, look at Rwanda more carefully--while it started as ethnic most of the violence looks more like individuals removing enemies or roadblocks in order to improve their own position. There wasn't really a central point of blame for most of it.

On a waddle and quack basis Hamas is the government of Gaza. They act as a government and they have de-facto borders. The lack of international recognition only makes them not formally a nation.
Hamas are as legit government as a bunch of warlords are.
I didn't say they were a good government, just that they were a waddle and quack government.
 
Why do Palestinian deaths matter but Jewish deaths don't matter?
Who said this???
Indirectly, multiple people on here.

10/7 won't kill Israel, thus Israel isn't justified in shooting back in a fashion that can harm civilians.
WTF?! That post should be labeled a fire hazard, it is so stuffed with strawmen.
If it's full of strawmen point to one.

But when the shoe is on the other foot the civilian deaths matter.
That is just a pile of crap. There is only one member here who'd feel that way about Israeli deaths. So cut that shit out. There is an ability to feeling terrible grief for the losses on October 7th without handing a blank check to a fucking idiotic dumbass wannabe dictator who dropped the ball so badly on Israeli defense that over 1000 Israelis were slaughtered and hundred more kidnapped while he was busy trying to centralize power in Israel.
You're also suffering from the standard liberal fallacy that there is always a good path. That's not how the real world works, this is a case where there are no good choices, only varying degrees of bad choices. Thus showing a path to be bad is irrelevant, what matters is how it compares to other paths.

And there's a problem with your theory, anyway--this was apparently planned for earlier but Iran changed the planning so we would be duped into releasing that $6 billion that was frozen. Knowing they were planning something big isn't actionable if you don't know when. Consider 9/11--the warnings Bush got were useless. There was a gaping hole in the security but it was much lower down--the report from the flight school about pilots who only cared about flying, not landing. If that got the attention it deserved it would have stopped 9/11.
 
Do you actually believe that the Palestinian population of the Gaza Strip has not been terrified by Israeli bomb strikes and the cutoff of food, water, power, and medical supplies?
That's not terrorism. That's war.
Yes, war is hell. But let's not lose track of who started this war, or how.

Any unlawful use of violence to terrify a civilian population is terrorism. Israel's denial of basic humanitarian needs and attacks on densely populated neighborhoods are acts intended to terrorize civilians, not just Hamas. But, in the eyes of some defenders of Israel, anything Israel targets is ipso facto a military target and therefore not limited by the Geneva Conventions. So human shields become nothing more than big targets painted on military assets that need to be destroyed. Your cliché "War is hell" expression is often used to excuse barbaric acts against an enemy, but it doesn't actually excuse barbaric behavior.
Get a dictionary. You need to learn what "unlawful" means (hint: what Israel is doing is not unlawful) and what "terrorism" means (hint: it's about intent.)

And the continual assertions that Israel doesn't know what it's hitting have zero evidence. Look at that post of mine earlier where UNWRA accidentally said the quiet part by showing the school damaged by an underground collapse. You don't hit tunnels by chance, Israel knew exactly where to aim.

And consider this recent bit:


They're still calling people to warn them to get off the X. And even waiting until the people they called have confirmed the area is evacuated.

Meanwhile, Hamas is using an empty hospital as a defense:
(warning--the source I got this from said the article was paywalled, but it let me in.)

Israel does not support terrorism.

Do you actually believe that the Palestinian population of the Gaza Strip has not been terrified by Israeli bomb strikes and the cutoff of food, water, power, and medical supplies?
Terrorism is a crime of intent.

So Israel's denials of humanitarian needs to Palestinians trapped in Gaza and their targeting of locations prohibited under international law are unintentional? Good to know. :rolleyes:
You continue to not understand international law.

Military use trumps civilian--if it's being used for military purposes it is a valid target, period.

And the humanitarian crisis is purely on Hamas. Hamas wants the people to suffer so useful idiots will call on Israel to stop shooting. The hospitals have been almost out of fuel for weeks now. Hamas always brings more before the generators actually stop.

Right. Israel is doing exactly what Hamas wants. You admit that here. Those who call on Israel to stop doing what Hamas wants are not the useful idiots. It is those who call on Israel to continue doing what Hamas wants.
Israel doesn't have a choice here. A government that fails to defend it's people will fall. If Israel acts as you want in the next election you'll see a far more hardline government.
 


Interesting article.

If you had ever read the Accords you would know that what it says about Area C is incorrect. Also, there appears to be some weasel wording over whether the Accords established a Palestinian State, the foundation for a Palestinian State, or self-governance for the Palestinian people in a part of Palestine that they lived in and controlled which might be called a State or might be called something else.
The thing is Oslo was only a partial agreement. It explicitly left many things unresolved. It was a road towards statehood, it was not statehood.


I'm guessing this opinion piece was written before the PA arrested thousands of Palestinian protesters so that the implementation of the Accords could continue unimpeded by the Palestinian side. Israel OTOH didn't even go after people credibly believed to have been complicit in the assassination of Yitzhak Rabin, much less take on all those armed, violent settlers.
Loudly arrested about 1,500 then quietly released most of them. Non-compliance.

I've seen a more detailed breakdown of Palestinian non-compliance but I'm not finding it right now.

Please try to find it. I've been thinking about restarting that old thread on the Oslo Accords. Every source of information would be useful for the discussion.

Also, just to be clear, Israel abandoned the Oslo Accords when Rabin was assassinated, as Netanyahu and his political allies had wanted. Its refusal to hand over Area C within the 18 month timeframe outlined in the Accords was a clear and obvious failure to comply, just as Netanyahu greenlighting the construction of new settlements in the West Bank was a clear and obvious 'fuck you' to the Palestinians and the peace process.
The Palestinians had already abandoned (basically, never kept in the first place) Oslo before that happened.
 
This destruction spawns terrorists of different stripes.
No. Money spawns terrorism. No money, no terrorism even when the treatment is atrocious. Enough money brings terrorism even when the situation isn't that bad.
World history says you're wrong.
What substantial terrorist movement was stopped while continuing to be funded?

And what substantial terrorist movement has existed without outside funding? (There are a few cases where it's been funded by high value exports, but that's still outside money even if it's not provided for the purpose of terror.)
 
Don't fall into the have-to-do-something trap. Just about everything done because something must be done ends up being the wrong thing.
Current IDF behaviour in Gaza being an excellent example of this.

Something did need to be done in response to the Gazan attacks and hostage taking.

Genocidal warfare wasn't the right thing, though. It never is.
But your "solution" is for Israel to do nothing. Just be good Jews and sit there and die.
 


Interesting article.

If you had ever read the Accords you would know that what it says about Area C is incorrect. Also, there appears to be some weasel wording over whether the Accords established a Palestinian State, the foundation for a Palestinian State, or self-governance for the Palestinian people in a part of Palestine that they lived in and controlled which might be called a State or might be called something else.
The thing is Oslo was only a partial agreement. It explicitly left many things unresolved. It was a road towards statehood, it was not statehood.
Did you finally get around to reading the Accords, or are you just guessing what they said and didn't say?

How about quoting the part about Area C so I can be sure you saw it. And then quote the part about the formation of the Palestinian Authority and its assumption the powers of govenment over the areas under its control. Then we'll talk about whether that constitutes the formation of an actual government.


I'm guessing this opinion piece was written before the PA arrested thousands of Palestinian protesters so that the implementation of the Accords could continue unimpeded by the Palestinian side. Israel OTOH didn't even go after people credibly believed to have been complicit in the assassination of Yitzhak Rabin, much less take on all those armed, violent settlers.
Loudly arrested about 1,500 then quietly released most of them. Non-compliance.

I've seen a more detailed breakdown of Palestinian non-compliance but I'm not finding it right now.

Please try to find it. I've been thinking about restarting that old thread on the Oslo Accords. Every source of information would be useful for the discussion.

Also, just to be clear, Israel abandoned the Oslo Accords when Rabin was assassinated, as Netanyahu and his political allies had wanted. Its refusal to hand over Area C within the 18 month timeframe outlined in the Accords was a clear and obvious failure to comply, just as Netanyahu greenlighting the construction of new settlements in the West Bank was a clear and obvious 'fuck you' to the Palestinians and the peace process.
The Palestinians had already abandoned (basically, never kept in the first place) Oslo before that happened.
The historical record of events show that both the Israelis and the Palestinians followed through on their commitments under the Oslo Accords until Yitzhak Rabin was assassinated by a Zionist. At that point, Israel stopped meeting deadlines for withdrawing troops and ceding control of areas to the PA. Within seven months of Rabin's murder his political opponent Benjamin Netanyahu, a man utterly opposed to the Oslo Accords and the Two State solution, became Israel's Prime Minister, and that was the end of the Oslo Accords.

If you think some other series of events happened, or that things in the historical record didn't happen, then demonstrate your claims by showing us the evidence and making a coherent case. Don't just bullshit your way through a list of baseless claims.
 
Murdering a murderer is still murder.
But killing a terrorist isn't.
It was not murder for US to kill ObL or Al Baghdadi or Al Alwaki. And neither is it murder for Israel to kill Hamas leaders.
Yes, it is; And yes, it was; And yes, it is.

None of these people had trials; None had the opportunity to defend themselves. How does anyone know in law that they got the right people?

If we let governments execute people without trial, for any reason (including "Oh, he is obviously guilty"), then we inevitably let them arbitrarily kill anyone they don't like.

We had that for centuries. Many places still have it. It was (and is) shitty beyond belief to live in such places and times.

We either have civilisation and rule of law for everyone, or we don't have it at all.
 
...
Any unlawful use of violence to terrify a civilian population is terrorism. Israel's denial of basic humanitarian needs and attacks on densely populated neighborhoods are acts intended to terrorize civilians, not just Hamas. But, in the eyes of some defenders of Israel, anything Israel targets is ipso facto a military target and therefore not limited by the Geneva Conventions. So human shields become nothing more than big targets painted on military assets that need to be destroyed. Your cliché "War is hell" expression is often used to excuse barbaric acts against an enemy, but it doesn't actually excuse barbaric behavior.
Get a dictionary. You need to learn what "unlawful" means (hint: what Israel is doing is not unlawful) and what "terrorism" means (hint: it's about intent.)

My understanding of "unlawful" is the same as yours, and we are talking about international law here. You are no more an expert on that subject than I am, and we have very different interpretations of what the Geneva Conventions say. AFAICT, they are rendered meaningless under your interpretation, because human shields can always be killed in order to destroy what they are shielding. So the claim that there are any restraints on targeting them are inconsequential. They are targets to the extent that they exist as "human shields" standing in front of what are bona fide military targets. Your legalistic nitpicking is absurd.


And the continual assertions that Israel doesn't know what it's hitting have zero evidence. Look at that post of mine earlier where UNWRA accidentally said the quiet part by showing the school damaged by an underground collapse. You don't hit tunnels by chance, Israel knew exactly where to aim.

Did I say that they didn't know what they were hitting? I think they know fully well that they are hitting innocent men, women, and children that they feel should have heeded leaflets telling them not to be where they are sending their bombs, even though there are no safe areas to go to. I think that the IDF believes that Gaza city is pretty much honeycombed by tunnels, and it may well be. So they can bomb pretty much anywhere and be hitting tunnels underneath all of those civilians. Too bad about the children, but "war is hell", isn't it? That didn't apply to the October 7 victims, because that was terrorism, not war, right?


And consider this recent bit:


They're still calling people to warn them to get off the X. And even waiting until the people they called have confirmed the area is evacuated.

OK, it's good to know that those three apartment blocks were actually evacuated in advance of the destruction of the residents' homes, but it's still just one anecdote published by a substack blogger. It doesn't negate incidents like the Jabalya bombing that targeted a single individual, and maybe didn't even get him before killing scores of innocent men, women, and children. It doesn't justify Israel cutting off the entire population of the Gaza Strip from food, water, medical, and power supplies on the grounds that Hamas might also commandeer some of it for their own purposes. Again, I don't think that international law allows that, but you do. We've established that difference in our opinions about the interpretation of the Geneva Conventions regarding protected people.


...
You continue to not understand international law.

Military use trumps civilian--if it's being used for military purposes it is a valid target, period.

You don't need to keep repeating this. We disagree. I believe that international law says that civilian lives are to be prioritized except under very extreme circumstances--for example during actual combat. You believe that any conceivable "military purpose", including the mere presence of an officer or enemy official, justifies overwhelming force to destroy it, no matter how many innocent lives may be sacrificed to that end. Tunnels can be blown up no matter what the lethal consequences are for innocent civilians simply because they might be used by enemy forces. The only requirement is maybe that the area by leafletted with warnings to flee the area, even though there are no safe havens to evacuate to.

...
Israel doesn't have a choice here. A government that fails to defend it's people will fall. If Israel acts as you want in the next election you'll see a far more hardline government.

I'm not really concerned about how Israelis will vote in the next election, if killing a lot of people is somehow in the calculus to elect politicians that are less malevolent than the current crop of rightwing racist fanatics. I realize that there are worse people than even Bibi Netanyahu, who has been running governments that actually did fail to defend its people. What I disagree with is your assumption that Israel is compelled to bomb the hell out of Gaza for a full month, killing roughly 10,000 Palestinians, added to the 1,400 Israelis killed on October 7, as a means of resolving the security crisis that Israel faces. At the end of this process, we are going to find that Palestinians are even more motivated to engage in asymmetric warfare against Israel in the future. Because that is their only option for settling new scores that they feel now fell need to be settled.
 

Suspect arrested in killing of Detroit synagogue leader Samantha Woll

A suspect has been taken into custody in last month’s killing of Detroit synagogue president Samantha Woll, Detroit Police said Wednesday.

In a statement on X, Police Chief James E. White said details of the investigation will remain confidential at this time.

“While this is an encouraging development in our desire to bring closure for Ms. Woll’s family, it does not represent the conclusion of our work in this case,” the statement reads.

Investigators are treating her death as arising from a domestic dispute and not extremism, according to a law enforcement source familiar with the investigation.

Why are men in US such violent extremists?
 
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