Merged Gaza just launched an unprovoked attack on Israel

[TV and credit cards]

While Israel takes the Netanyahuian one step approach to problem solving, support drops precipitously among young Democrats for Biden.

Israel loses much of the support it gained after Hamas' attack | Brookings

The initial bump in American support for Israel after the Hamas attack has not survived reactions to the Israeli attacks in Gaza.

www.brookings.edu

Don't forget who'll butter your bread this time next year.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

The African Americans buttered Biden's bread, it was not nearly as much the young people. Regardless, Biden and Blinken have been weighing their language recently. Netanyahu is clearly going well beyond what has been agreed to and his plans are not in line with international powers. Netanyahu is a dangerous idiot playing with fire. He's done it in the past and possibly got an Israeli PM assassinated.

It is amazing how Netanyahu is really reliving the 9/11 attacks at 4x speed. Guard down, concentrating on other things, and got attacked. Had huge good will from Internationals everywhere (mostly), and managed to squander it in a month. All that is left is a barrage air style attack against Hezbollah, a Mission Accomplished banner, and a brutal insurgency.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

And you still haven't addressed the original question: What should Israel have done?

First, act like sane responsible adults instead vengeful genocidal maniacs to reassure the public that they would hunt down and bring to justice the perpetrators, and work to free/ rescue the hostages. Second, start gathering the intelligence and making plans to either seize or assassinate the perpetrators and free/ rescue the hostages .Third, carry out the plans. Yes, it would take time and be less viscerally satisfying to the racists, and revenge seekers.

And what were you smoking when you came up with this "plan"?

Reassure the public that they would hunt down and bring to justice the perpetrators is babble.

Work to free the hostages? Hamas will want too much for them. Any deal Hamas would agree to would kill far more than are currently being held. Israel unfortunately has a track record of making big concessions for hostages, there won't be a sane price for their release.

Rescue the hostages? Have you forgotten where they are? The only way the IDF can do this is to invade--and a ground invasion would be far worse especially if the tunnels haven't been destroyed first. In case you're not aware of how this sort of thing works any building with defenders is removed. All paths are secured--but if the tunnels are still there any building could have a hidden tunnel, thus every building would be removed. Look at what's left of cities that Ukraine/Russia fought a ground battle in--Gaza would be a lot worse because of the tunnels.

Gathering intelligence? Sorry, they are limited in this regard by the lack of contact between the two countries.

Seize/assassinate the perpetrators? That's back to the invasion approach.

Until you have a sane plan don't criticize what the people who do know what they're doing come up with.

Right now the gov’t of Israel is working to free/rescue the hostages - something you disparage even though those people “ do know what they’re doing “ (according to you). Of course, their apparent strategy is to bomb the tunnels the hostages may be in.

If gathering intelligence is limited then how can the IDF know where tunnels or the hostages are?

The rest of your response appears to be driven by the assumption that the only other alternatives require an immediate massive invasion. Which is just stupid.

In conclusion, your criticisms have no basis in disinterested reasoning and contradict your IDF apologia.

Their strategy is to make Hamas cry uncle.

And you aren't addressing the flaws I pointed out.

And your "plan" would require invasion, just not immediate.

Wrong on all counts. The flakes are based on your assumptions. The plan only requires an invasion if one needs immediate results.

You're neglecting the fact that they only way Israel can operate in Gaza is with overwhelming force. They have no means of surgically taking out Hamas. When they went after the Munich terrorists they were in territory where so long as they were stealthy they wouldn't have a problem and the governments were not openly hostile to them. (I say "openly" because Israel resorted to assassination because extradition didn't work--the countries would either not pick them up or would forewarn them so they would leave before the cops showed up.) That's not how it is in Gaza.

All you are saying is that assassination attempts in person in Gaza are much harder. And, of, course there are drones.

Much harder to the point of being pretty much not an option.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I want to know what the suggestion is for Palestinians who want to leave Gaza and go to the old family home in Ashkelon.

I'm quoting myself because I'd really like to hear what people think about making the results of ethnic cleansing permanent.

I think it's pretty fucking disgraceful.

I think the Israelis built this time bomb and did nothing while the countdown was ticking.

So the Jews should be ethnically cleansed instead? Your idea of peaceful coexistence isn't going to work. It didn't work in India, either--and that was bloodier and more displacement than anything around Israel. We don't hear about it because there isn't a huge propaganda machine--but keep an eye on what Pakistan is doing. Terrorism and outright military attacks.

I think the only reasonably good way forward is to reward Fatah and the PA for choosing to pursue their goals through negotiation and the international courts rather than support terrorism. I think Israel should make substantial improvements in the lives of Palestinians in the West Bank starting with reining in the settlers, recognizing the rights of non-Jews to remain in place and participate in the government that has control of their economic prospects and standard of living, and by building nice, sustainable settlements for those who choose to live there rather than return to their former homes inside the 1967 Green Line.

How about reigning in the Palestinians?

A Jew who goes down the wrong street very well might end up dead. A Palestinian won't.

Loren summed it up a few days ago:

You don't get it. If the current government doesn't defend the people the next election will bring a government that makes the current one look like moderates.

The Kingdom of Jordan failed to improve the lives of Palestinians facing terrorism, war, and ethnic cleansing in Palestine. The people eventually turned to the PLO.

The PLO failed to improve the lives of Palestinians. The people in Gaza eventually turned to Hamas while those in the West Bank supported the PLO's Fatah faction.

If there is no improvement for Palestinians from either the terrorism of Hamas or the diplomacy of Fatah, then the people will turn to other means and other forces. They won't just disappear no matter how much Zionists wish they would. The crimes against humanity they have suffered won't vanish if they go to Egypt.

It's up to Israel to make improvements in how it deals with people who don't worship their stupid god or share their Euro-centric chauvinism. If Israel doesn't, we can all expect worse if/when the people of Palestine bring in a government that makes the current one look like a bunch of moderates.

What you are missing is that the Palestinians have explicitly been used as cannon fodder since 1948. It's in the interests of the Arab nations that they remain impoverished. This isn't about displaced people, this is about maintaining the war with EastAsia.

 

[ZiprHead]

And you still haven't addressed the original question: What should Israel have done?

First, act like sane responsible adults instead vengeful genocidal maniacs to reassure the public that they would hunt down and bring to justice the perpetrators, and work to free/ rescue the hostages. Second, start gathering the intelligence and making plans to either seize or assassinate the perpetrators and free/ rescue the hostages .Third, carry out the plans. Yes, it would take time and be less viscerally satisfying to the racists, and revenge seekers.

And what were you smoking when you came up with this "plan"?

Reassure the public that they would hunt down and bring to justice the perpetrators is babble.

Work to free the hostages? Hamas will want too much for them. Any deal Hamas would agree to would kill far more than are currently being held. Israel unfortunately has a track record of making big concessions for hostages, there won't be a sane price for their release.

Rescue the hostages? Have you forgotten where they are? The only way the IDF can do this is to invade--and a ground invasion would be far worse especially if the tunnels haven't been destroyed first. In case you're not aware of how this sort of thing works any building with defenders is removed. All paths are secured--but if the tunnels are still there any building could have a hidden tunnel, thus every building would be removed. Look at what's left of cities that Ukraine/Russia fought a ground battle in--Gaza would be a lot worse because of the tunnels.

Gathering intelligence? Sorry, they are limited in this regard by the lack of contact between the two countries.

Seize/assassinate the perpetrators? That's back to the invasion approach.

Until you have a sane plan don't criticize what the people who do know what they're doing come up with.

Right now the gov’t of Israel is working to free/rescue the hostages - something you disparage even though those people “ do know what they’re doing “ (according to you). Of course, their apparent strategy is to bomb the tunnels the hostages may be in.

If gathering intelligence is limited then how can the IDF know where tunnels or the hostages are?

The rest of your response appears to be driven by the assumption that the only other alternatives require an immediate massive invasion. Which is just stupid.

In conclusion, your criticisms have no basis in disinterested reasoning and contradict your IDF apologia.

Their strategy is to make Hamas cry uncle.

And you aren't addressing the flaws I pointed out.

And your "plan" would require invasion, just not immediate.

Wrong on all counts. The flakes are based on your assumptions. The plan only requires an invasion if one needs immediate results.

You're neglecting the fact that they only way Israel can operate in Gaza is with overwhelming force. They have no means of surgically taking out Hamas. When they went after the Munich terrorists they were in territory where so long as they were stealthy they wouldn't have a problem and the governments were not openly hostile to them. (I say "openly" because Israel resorted to assassination because extradition didn't work--the countries would either not pick them up or would forewarn them so they would leave before the cops showed up.) That's not how it is in Gaza.

All you are saying is that assassination attempts in person in Gaza are much harder. And, of, course there are drones.

Much harder to the point of being pretty much not an option.

Ukrainians can drop explosives through the open hatch of Russian tanks but Israel is incapable of being a little more selective in their fire?

 

[Arctish]

I want to know what the suggestion is for Palestinians who want to leave Gaza and go to the old family home in Ashkelon.

I'm quoting myself because I'd really like to hear what people think about making the results of ethnic cleansing permanent.

I think it's pretty fucking disgraceful.

I think the Israelis built this time bomb and did nothing while the countdown was ticking.

So the Jews should be ethnically cleansed instead?

NO.

Absolutely not.

I have told you so over and over again, Loren. That is your extremist, all-or-nothing mindset talking. I don't share your inability to see the inherent worth and equality in all people regardless of race, religion, creed, or any other factor bigots think is determinative of how they should be treated by their fellow human beings.

Your idea of peaceful coexistence isn't going to work. It didn't work in India, either--and that was bloodier and more displacement than anything around Israel.

It worked for centuries before the British took over and Europeans began flooding into the area. It worked so well that Palestinian Jews were willing to risk their lives by confronting Zionist terrorists carrying out Plan Dalet to make them stop murdering Palestinian Muslims and Christians. It worked so well that Palestinian Muslims and Christians fleeing murderous Zionists gave the keys to their houses to Palestinian Jews in the nearby towns because they trusted their friends and longtime neighbors to look after their property until they could return.

You've seen the links. You know that history proves you wrong.

We don't hear about it because there isn't a huge propaganda machine--but keep an eye on what Pakistan is doing. Terrorism and outright military attacks.

I think the only reasonably good way forward is to reward Fatah and the PA for choosing to pursue their goals through negotiation and the international courts rather than support terrorism. I think Israel should make substantial improvements in the lives of Palestinians in the West Bank starting with reining in the settlers, recognizing the rights of non-Jews to remain in place and participate in the government that has control of their economic prospects and standard of living, and by building nice, sustainable settlements for those who choose to live there rather than return to their former homes inside the 1967 Green Line.

How about reigning in the Palestinians?

A Jew who goes down the wrong street very well might end up dead. A Palestinian won't.

How about equal treatment under the law?

How about taking race, religion, and ethnic origin out of the equation when considering what should be done when crimes are committed?

How about working towards a fair and just society and away from a society where bigotry is enshrined and racist assholes protected?

Loren summed it up a few days ago:

You don't get it. If the current government doesn't defend the people the next election will bring a government that makes the current one look like moderates.

The Kingdom of Jordan failed to improve the lives of Palestinians facing terrorism, war, and ethnic cleansing in Palestine. The people eventually turned to the PLO.

The PLO failed to improve the lives of Palestinians. The people in Gaza eventually turned to Hamas while those in the West Bank supported the PLO's Fatah faction.

If there is no improvement for Palestinians from either the terrorism of Hamas or the diplomacy of Fatah, then the people will turn to other means and other forces. They won't just disappear no matter how much Zionists wish they would. The crimes against humanity they have suffered won't vanish if they go to Egypt.

It's up to Israel to make improvements in how it deals with people who don't worship their stupid god or share their Euro-centric chauvinism. If Israel doesn't, we can all expect worse if/when the people of Palestine bring in a government that makes the current one look like a bunch of moderates.

What you are missing is that the Palestinians have explicitly been used as cannon fodder since 1948. It's in the interests of the Arab nations that they remain impoverished. This isn't about displaced people, this is about maintaining the war with EastAsia.

What you are missing is that you and I agree. If the current government doesn't defend the people the next election will bring a government that makes the current one look like moderates.

If Fatah's diplomatic approach fails to improve the quality of life for Palestinians in the West Bank then a new faction will take over. It will most likely be more extreme.

You and the Israelis should want Fatah to succeed in their diplomacy. I think on some level you do. It's just that Israel wants all of the land it calls Eretz Israel under Israeli control more than it wants Fatah to succeed in defending the Palestinians.

You suggested putting a porcupine on Israel's flag as an appropriate symbol of what happens when you mess with it. I think it would be even more appropriate if the flag showed someone trying to swallow a porcupine as a symbol of why Israel still doesn't have a border, and why Israelis still don't have peace.

 

[laughing dog]

Much harder to the point of being pretty much not an option.

Only to pro-genocide cheerleaders for the IDF.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

And you still haven't addressed the original question: What should Israel have done?

First, act like sane responsible adults instead vengeful genocidal maniacs to reassure the public that they would hunt down and bring to justice the perpetrators, and work to free/ rescue the hostages. Second, start gathering the intelligence and making plans to either seize or assassinate the perpetrators and free/ rescue the hostages .Third, carry out the plans. Yes, it would take time and be less viscerally satisfying to the racists, and revenge seekers.

And what were you smoking when you came up with this "plan"?

Reassure the public that they would hunt down and bring to justice the perpetrators is babble.

Work to free the hostages? Hamas will want too much for them. Any deal Hamas would agree to would kill far more than are currently being held. Israel unfortunately has a track record of making big concessions for hostages, there won't be a sane price for their release.

Rescue the hostages? Have you forgotten where they are? The only way the IDF can do this is to invade--and a ground invasion would be far worse especially if the tunnels haven't been destroyed first. In case you're not aware of how this sort of thing works any building with defenders is removed. All paths are secured--but if the tunnels are still there any building could have a hidden tunnel, thus every building would be removed. Look at what's left of cities that Ukraine/Russia fought a ground battle in--Gaza would be a lot worse because of the tunnels.

Gathering intelligence? Sorry, they are limited in this regard by the lack of contact between the two countries.

Seize/assassinate the perpetrators? That's back to the invasion approach.

Until you have a sane plan don't criticize what the people who do know what they're doing come up with.

Right now the gov’t of Israel is working to free/rescue the hostages - something you disparage even though those people “ do know what they’re doing “ (according to you). Of course, their apparent strategy is to bomb the tunnels the hostages may be in.

If gathering intelligence is limited then how can the IDF know where tunnels or the hostages are?

The rest of your response appears to be driven by the assumption that the only other alternatives require an immediate massive invasion. Which is just stupid.

In conclusion, your criticisms have no basis in disinterested reasoning and contradict your IDF apologia.

Their strategy is to make Hamas cry uncle.

And you aren't addressing the flaws I pointed out.

And your "plan" would require invasion, just not immediate.

Wrong on all counts. The flakes are based on your assumptions. The plan only requires an invasion if one needs immediate results.

You're neglecting the fact that they only way Israel can operate in Gaza is with overwhelming force. They have no means of surgically taking out Hamas. When they went after the Munich terrorists they were in territory where so long as they were stealthy they wouldn't have a problem and the governments were not openly hostile to them. (I say "openly" because Israel resorted to assassination because extradition didn't work--the countries would either not pick them up or would forewarn them so they would leave before the cops showed up.) That's not how it is in Gaza.

All you are saying is that assassination attempts in person in Gaza are much harder. And, of, course there are drones.

Much harder to the point of being pretty much not an option.

Ukrainians can drop explosives through the open hatch of Russian tanks but Israel is incapable of being a little more selective in their fire?

You have a big problem with identifying them. And a drone that tried to fly around Gaza would be shot down. Israel has enough trouble with targets using human shields when they're using supersonic missiles, how can you think they could accomplish something with a drone?

Once again you're committing the standard liberal fallacy of thinking the world is good--that there must be a good answer to the problem. Nope, the world has no alignment and there's no guarantee there is a good answer out there.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I want to know what the suggestion is for Palestinians who want to leave Gaza and go to the old family home in Ashkelon.

I'm quoting myself because I'd really like to hear what people think about making the results of ethnic cleansing permanent.

I think it's pretty fucking disgraceful.

I think the Israelis built this time bomb and did nothing while the countdown was ticking.

So the Jews should be ethnically cleansed instead?

NO.

Absolutely not.

I have told you so over and over again, Loren. That is your extremist, all-or-nothing mindset talking. I don't share your inability to see the inherent worth and equality in all people regardless of race, religion, creed, or any other factor bigots think is determinative of how they should be treated by their fellow human beings.

You have told me over and over that you don't believe it would result in ethnic cleansing but you continue to advocate for a course of action that would inevitably lead to ethnic cleansing.

Your idea of peaceful coexistence isn't going to work. It didn't work in India, either--and that was bloodier and more displacement than anything around Israel.

It worked for centuries before the British took over and Europeans began flooding into the area. It worked so well that Palestinian Jews were willing to risk their lives by confronting Zionist terrorists carrying out Plan Dalet to make them stop murdering Palestinian Muslims and Christians. It worked so well that Palestinian Muslims and Christians fleeing murderous Zionists gave the keys to their houses to Palestinian Jews in the nearby towns because they trusted their friends and longtime neighbors to look after their property until they could return.

I was pointing out India. The India/Pakistan partition makes Israel/Palestine look benign.

How about reigning in the Palestinians?

A Jew who goes down the wrong street very well might end up dead. A Palestinian won't.

How about equal treatment under the law?

How about addressing the issue?

How about taking race, religion, and ethnic origin out of the equation when considering what should be done when crimes are committed?

And how does it make a difference? Yes, settler crimes against Palestinians are effectively ignored because they're impossible to prosecute, not because they're above the law. With no cooperation from the Palestinians the police can't even determine if a crime was committed, let alone who did it. (Many of the allegations are clearly false.)

How about working towards a fair and just society and away from a society where bigotry is enshrined and racist assholes protected?

And you think you can reform the Palestinians? Because they are far more guilty of this than Israel.

Loren summed it up a few days ago:

You don't get it. If the current government doesn't defend the people the next election will bring a government that makes the current one look like moderates.

The Kingdom of Jordan failed to improve the lives of Palestinians facing terrorism, war, and ethnic cleansing in Palestine. The people eventually turned to the PLO.

The PLO failed to improve the lives of Palestinians. The people in Gaza eventually turned to Hamas while those in the West Bank supported the PLO's Fatah faction.

If there is no improvement for Palestinians from either the terrorism of Hamas or the diplomacy of Fatah, then the people will turn to other means and other forces. They won't just disappear no matter how much Zionists wish they would. The crimes against humanity they have suffered won't vanish if they go to Egypt.

It's up to Israel to make improvements in how it deals with people who don't worship their stupid god or share their Euro-centric chauvinism. If Israel doesn't, we can all expect worse if/when the people of Palestine bring in a government that makes the current one look like a bunch of moderates.

What you are missing is that the Palestinians have explicitly been used as cannon fodder since 1948. It's in the interests of the Arab nations that they remain impoverished. This isn't about displaced people, this is about maintaining the war with EastAsia.

What you are missing is that you and I agree. If the current government doesn't defend the people the next election will bring a government that makes the current one look like moderates.

If Fatah's diplomatic approach fails to improve the quality of life for Palestinians in the West Bank then a new faction will take over. It will most likely be more extreme.

Fatah never tried diplomacy. Sham talks to see what they could get but no willingness to agree to a partition of the territory. Oslo was a case of can-kicking, not a true partition.

You and the Israelis should want Fatah to succeed in their diplomacy. I think on some level you do. It's just that Israel wants all of the land it calls Eretz Israel under Israeli control more than it wants Fatah to succeed in defending the Palestinians.

I'd like it if they succeeded but they inherently can't. By their law agreeing to a partition carries the death penalty.

You suggested putting a porcupine on Israel's flag as an appropriate symbol of what happens when you mess with it. I think it would be even more appropriate if the flag showed someone trying to swallow a porcupine as a symbol of why Israel still doesn't have a border, and why Israelis still don't have peace.

Israel doesn't have peace because they are the Muslim EastAsia.

 

[ZiprHead]

And you still haven't addressed the original question: What should Israel have done?

First, act like sane responsible adults instead vengeful genocidal maniacs to reassure the public that they would hunt down and bring to justice the perpetrators, and work to free/ rescue the hostages. Second, start gathering the intelligence and making plans to either seize or assassinate the perpetrators and free/ rescue the hostages .Third, carry out the plans. Yes, it would take time and be less viscerally satisfying to the racists, and revenge seekers.

And what were you smoking when you came up with this "plan"?

Reassure the public that they would hunt down and bring to justice the perpetrators is babble.

Work to free the hostages? Hamas will want too much for them. Any deal Hamas would agree to would kill far more than are currently being held. Israel unfortunately has a track record of making big concessions for hostages, there won't be a sane price for their release.

Rescue the hostages? Have you forgotten where they are? The only way the IDF can do this is to invade--and a ground invasion would be far worse especially if the tunnels haven't been destroyed first. In case you're not aware of how this sort of thing works any building with defenders is removed. All paths are secured--but if the tunnels are still there any building could have a hidden tunnel, thus every building would be removed. Look at what's left of cities that Ukraine/Russia fought a ground battle in--Gaza would be a lot worse because of the tunnels.

Gathering intelligence? Sorry, they are limited in this regard by the lack of contact between the two countries.

Seize/assassinate the perpetrators? That's back to the invasion approach.

Until you have a sane plan don't criticize what the people who do know what they're doing come up with.

Right now the gov’t of Israel is working to free/rescue the hostages - something you disparage even though those people “ do know what they’re doing “ (according to you). Of course, their apparent strategy is to bomb the tunnels the hostages may be in.

If gathering intelligence is limited then how can the IDF know where tunnels or the hostages are?

The rest of your response appears to be driven by the assumption that the only other alternatives require an immediate massive invasion. Which is just stupid.

In conclusion, your criticisms have no basis in disinterested reasoning and contradict your IDF apologia.

Their strategy is to make Hamas cry uncle.

And you aren't addressing the flaws I pointed out.

And your "plan" would require invasion, just not immediate.

Wrong on all counts. The flakes are based on your assumptions. The plan only requires an invasion if one needs immediate results.

You're neglecting the fact that they only way Israel can operate in Gaza is with overwhelming force. They have no means of surgically taking out Hamas. When they went after the Munich terrorists they were in territory where so long as they were stealthy they wouldn't have a problem and the governments were not openly hostile to them. (I say "openly" because Israel resorted to assassination because extradition didn't work--the countries would either not pick them up or would forewarn them so they would leave before the cops showed up.) That's not how it is in Gaza.

All you are saying is that assassination attempts in person in Gaza are much harder. And, of, course there are drones.

Much harder to the point of being pretty much not an option.

Ukrainians can drop explosives through the open hatch of Russian tanks but Israel is incapable of being a little more selective in their fire?

You have a big problem with identifying them. And a drone that tried to fly around Gaza would be shot down. Israel has enough trouble with targets using human shields when they're using supersonic missiles, how can you think they could accomplish something with a drone?

Once again you're committing the standard liberal fallacy of thinking the world is good--that there must be a good answer to the problem. Nope, the world has no alignment and there's no guarantee there is a good answer out there.

Really? Russians can't shoot down drones? Do you listen to yourself?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Much harder to the point of being pretty much not an option.

Only to pro-genocide cheerleaders for the IDF.

You continue to give no sane details about how they are supposed to go after the perpetrators.

So far you have suggested assassins sneaking in--hopeless in Gaza; and you have suggested drones--once again, hopeless.

 

[laughing dog]

Much harder to the point of being pretty much not an option.

Only to pro-genocide cheerleaders for the IDF.

You continue to give no sane details about how they are supposed to go after the perpetrators.

So far you have suggested assassins sneaking in--hopeless in Gaza; and you have suggested drones--once again, hopeless.

So far all you’ve done is contradict yourself and handwave dismissals.

Your bloodlust blinds your reason.

 

[TomC]

Really? Russians can't shoot down drones? Do you listen to yourself?

Maybe if you weren't nesting 10 quotes I could understand how Russians came into your response.

There's a thread about that.
Ron

 

[Arctish]

You have told me over and over that you don't believe it would result in ethnic cleansing but you continue to advocate for a course of action that would inevitably lead to ethnic cleansing.

There is nothing inevitable about ethnic cleansing. It's a choice bigoted assholes make and indifferent assholes allow, not the destiny of Semitic people to either give or receive.

Your idea of peaceful coexistence isn't going to work. It didn't work in India, either--and that was bloodier and more displacement than anything around Israel.

It worked for centuries before the British took over and Europeans began flooding into the area. It worked so well that Palestinian Jews were willing to risk their lives by confronting Zionist terrorists carrying out Plan Dalet to make them stop murdering Palestinian Muslims and Christians. It worked so well that Palestinian Muslims and Christians fleeing murderous Zionists gave the keys to their houses to Palestinian Jews in the nearby towns because they trusted their friends and longtime neighbors to look after their property until they could return.

I was pointing out India. The India/Pakistan partition makes Israel/Palestine look benign.

Yes, I saw. I presume you want to talk about India because

1. you want to bash Muslims and you think you can portray Hindus as victims, and

2. you don't want to talk about the centuries of friendly, peaceful relations between Palestinian Jews and their Muslim and Christian neighbors.

If you really want to talk about India before, during, and after the British Raj, go ahead and start a new thread. Don't forget to mention the burning people alive part, though. It's an important part of the story.

How about reigning in the Palestinians?

A Jew who goes down the wrong street very well might end up dead. A Palestinian won't.

How about equal treatment under the law?

How about addressing the issue?

Equal treatment under the law is the issue.

Human rights and not being shitty towards people who have different ideas about Biblegod is the issue.

Racism and religious bigotry enshrined as national policy is the issue.

There's also greed and cultural chauvinism at work, but first things first.

How about taking race, religion, and ethnic origin out of the equation when considering what should be done when crimes are committed?

And how does it make a difference? Yes, settler crimes against Palestinians are effectively ignored because they're impossible to prosecute, not because they're above the law. With no cooperation from the Palestinians the police can't even determine if a crime was committed, let alone who did it. (Many of the allegations are clearly false.)

^This is bullshit.^

How about working towards a fair and just society and away from a society where bigotry is enshrined and racist assholes protected?

And you think you can reform the Palestinians? Because they are far more guilty of this than Israel.

^This is bullshit plus racism.^

Fatah never tried diplomacy. Sham talks to see what they could get but no willingness to agree to a partition of the territory. Oslo was a case of can-kicking, not a true partition.

^This is an unsupported assertion that appears to be a perfect blend of bullshit, racism, ignorance, and handwaving.^

The Palestinians want their State. They jumped through enough hoops to demonstrate their willingness to jump through hoops to get it. Now it's the Israelis turn to prove their willingness. They can start by letting everyone know where Israel ends and Not-Israel begins.

You and the Israelis should want Fatah to succeed in their diplomacy. I think on some level you do. It's just that Israel wants all of the land it calls Eretz Israel under Israeli control more than it wants Fatah to succeed in defending the Palestinians.

I'd like it if they succeeded but they inherently can't.

They "inherently" can't?

How very anti-Semitic of you to think so.

By their law agreeing to a partition carries the death penalty.

You suggested putting a porcupine on Israel's flag as an appropriate symbol of what happens when you mess with it. I think it would be even more appropriate if the flag showed someone trying to swallow a porcupine as a symbol of why Israel still doesn't have a border, and why Israelis still don't have peace.

Israel doesn't have peace because they are the Muslim EastAsia.

Israel doesn't have peace because it keeps stealing land and resources from people in the West Bank, imprisoning millions of civilians in Gaza, and the last Israeli leader who was serious about a peace deal with the Palestinians was murdered by a Zionist for "betraying Zionism".

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

I want to know what the suggestion is for Palestinians who want to leave Gaza and go to the old family home in Ashkelon.

I'm quoting myself because I'd really like to hear what people think about making the results of ethnic cleansing permanent.

I think it's pretty fucking disgraceful.

I think the Israelis built this time bomb and did nothing while the countdown was ticking.

So the Jews should be ethnically cleansed instead?

NO.

Absolutely not.

I have told you so over and over again, Loren. That is your extremist, all-or-nothing mindset talking. I don't share your inability to see the inherent worth and equality in all people regardless of race, religion, creed, or any other factor bigots think is determinative of how they should be treated by their fellow human beings.

You have told me over and over that you don't believe it would result in ethnic cleansing but you continue to advocate for a course of action that would inevitably lead to ethnic cleansing.

Then maybe you should weigh your language better instead of implying Arctish supports ethnic cleansing of the Jewish, which is a reprehensible accusation.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Much harder to the point of being pretty much not an option.

Only to pro-genocide cheerleaders for the IDF.

You continue to give no sane details about how they are supposed to go after the perpetrators.

So far you have suggested assassins sneaking in--hopeless in Gaza; and you have suggested drones--once again, hopeless.

The US flew into Pakistan, captured/killed bin Laden. It likely wasn't option A, B, C but it wasn't likely bin Laden was going to make himself readily available otherwise.

Sneaking in is a very very hard plan, very dangerous. Bombs and missiles causing collateral damage also leads to more extremism, so while it is simpler, it isn't nearly as surgical and comes with a ton of baggage. So it isn't exactly a flawless strategy. There is give and take with military tactics. Clearly Israeli military gets this because they didn't flatten the hospital.

Reality doesn't give someone a freebie from consequences just because alternative ideas are hard.

 

[barbos]

The US flew into Pakistan,

US, burned Japan cities to the ground then nuked. British burned German cities but did not have nukes ready in time.
US also destroyed Ukraine for no good reasons at all except to show ....... China.

There would be no Hamas without money from US allies such as Qatar, and really from the US itself, and even ...... Israel.

 

[Copernicus]

The US flew into Pakistan,

US, burned Japan cities to the ground then nuked. British burned German cities but did not have nukes ready in time.
US also destroyed Ukraine for no good reasons at all except to show ....... China.

There would be no Hamas without money from US allies such as Qatar, and really from the US itself, and even ...... Israel.

Yes, there are a lot of countries that contributed to Hamas, including...

Why Russia and Hamas Are Growing Closer​

 

[Derec]

Yes, there are a lot of countries that contributed to Hamas, including...

Why Russia and Hamas Are Growing Closer​

Fascist, genocidal birds of a feather flock together.

 

[barbos]

Hamas and US flock together, that's for sure, especially in Syria.