Merged Gaza just launched an unprovoked attack on Israel

[TomC]

Hamas and US flock together, that's for sure, especially in Syria.

Ha ha ha

And Trump is unusually honest for a politician and Ukraine attacked Russia...

You're just a hoot, bless your heart.
Tom

 

[Harry Bosch]

Hamas and US flock together, that's for sure, especially in Syria.

Ha ha ha

And Trump is unusually honest for a politician and Ukraine attacked Russia...

You're just a hoot, bless your heart.
Tom

This exchange has warmed my heart so much that it inspired me to invite my mother-in-law to spend the next three weeks with us! She's a swell gal and a hoot to hang with!

 

[TomC]

This exchange has warmed my heart so much that it inspired me

I shudder to think about how cold your heart was...
Tom

 

[Swammerdami]

Derec's position seems to be that it's necessary to break eggs to make an omelet, that the end justifies the means.

And your position seems to be that Israel should not be allowed to defend itself if that endangers any Palestinian civilians. On the other hand, Hamas can use whatever tactics it wants to try to destroy Israel.

Careful. You construct so many straw-men, we're going to run out of straw here at IIDB!

There are about 700,000 Israeli citizens living illegally in the West Bank. To provide security for these illegal settlements, Israel controls the movements of all neighboring Palestinians. Palestinians in Gaza are also continually abused. (There is no legal or treaty basis for these settlements; the sole justification is quoting from Genesis and Exodus wherein a creature named Yahweh allegedly gave these lands to descendants of a certain Yaakov ibn Yitzhak about 3400 years ago.)

Rational observers do NOT condone terrorism by Hamas. But imagine a hypothetical in which hundreds of thousands of well-armed Mexicans showed up in Texas, waving an ancient forged document, confiscating land, and killing the Texans who resisted. I've spoken to some Texans and I daresay the violence they would engage in to show their resentment would be at least as severe as the misdeeds of the Palestinians.

Almost all the world's people outside North America understand this much. Do people in the U.S.A. eat special stupidity pills?

 

[Tigers!]

Ukrainians can drop explosives through the open hatch of Russian tanks but Israel is incapable of being a little more selective in their fire?

The situations are not strictly analogous. The tanks is Ukraine are far more widely spaced that in Gaza and the population density is very different. Plus the Ukrainians/Russians can assume that anyone near their tanks is a solider. The Israelis cannot assume that in Gaza. And a Javelin missile is not very good in an multi-storey urban environment.

 

[TomC]

Ukrainians can drop explosives through the open hatch of Russian tanks but Israel is incapable of being a little more selective in their fire?

The situations are not strictly analogous. The tanks is Ukraine are far more widely spaced that in Gaza and the population density is very different. Plus the Ukrainians/Russians can assume that anyone near their tanks is a solider. The Israelis cannot assume that in Gaza. And a Javelin missile is not very good in an multi-storey urban environment.

I don't even see it as that complex.
A tank in Ukraine that isn't Ukrainian is a violent invader. People defending their country are, of course, going to use their weapons as effectively as possible.

Gazans are the invaders in their situation. Violent, and worse. The Gazan elite depend on using innocent people as human shields. Lots of sorta innocent people get killed.

That way, Islamic militants can behave brutally and still claim to be victims.
Tom

 

[laughing dog]

Almost all the world's people outside North America understand this much. Do people in the U.S.A. eat special stupidity pills?

Not special, just greater quantities of them.

 

[Arctish]

Ukrainians can drop explosives through the open hatch of Russian tanks but Israel is incapable of being a little more selective in their fire?

The situations are not strictly analogous. The tanks is Ukraine are far more widely spaced that in Gaza and the population density is very different. Plus the Ukrainians/Russians can assume that anyone near their tanks is a solider. The Israelis cannot assume that in Gaza. And a Javelin missile is not very good in an multi-storey urban environment.

I don't even see it as that complex.
A tank in Ukraine that isn't Ukrainian is a violent invader. People defending their country are, of course, going to use their weapons as effectively as possible.

Gazans are the invaders in their situation. Violent, and worse. The Gazan elite depend on using innocent people as human shields. Lots of sorta innocent people get killed.

That way, Islamic militants can behave brutally and still claim to be victims.
Tom

What do you mean by "sorta innocent"?

In May of this year, Israel killed 10 civilians when it launched an *ahem* unprovoked attack that killed 3 Islamic Jihad militants. One of those killed was a 4 year old girl who was killed in her sleep. Are you implying that as Gazans, none of them were entirely innocent?

 

[laughing dog]

The Gazan elite depend on using innocent people as human shields. Lots of sorta innocent people get killed.

If you expect the “Gaza elite” to live so that they are easy targets in order to minimize civilian deaths, why don’t you feel the same way about the Israeli elite?

After all, it allows the Israeli gov’t to act brutally and still claim to be victims.

 

[lpetrich]

I'll now give more of the prehistory and early history, and skip over most of the last 2,000 years:  Prehistory of the Levant and  List of archaeological periods (Levant) and  Time periods in the Palestine region Each date is a beginning date.

• 1.2 million BCE - first evidence of human predecessors
• 90,000 BCE - anatomically modern human predecessors move in
• 60,000 BCE - Neanderthals move back in - too cold for the AMH's?
• 40,000 BCE - some of our present human species move in - nomadic hunter-gatherers
• 13,000 BCE - Natufians: sedentary HG's in large communities
• 10,000 BCE - Pre-Pottery Neolithic farmers. Jericho: 9,000 BCE
• 6500 BCE - Pottery used
• 4500 BCE - Copper used
• 3500 BCE - Bronze used
• 1550 BCE - Egypt's New Kingdom Levantine empire
•  1175 BCE - Sea Peoples destroy that empire, the Hittite Empire, and the Mycenaean Greek city-states. Iron used
• 930 BCE - Dual Monarchy
• 732 BCE - Assyria conquers the northern kingdom
• 586 BCE - Babylon conquers the southern kindom
• 539 BCE - Persians make Yehud autonomous
• 332 BCE - Alexander the Great conquers the region
• 160 BCE - Maccabees successfully rebel, make the land independent
• 63 BCE - Romans conquer the land, and it changes hands several times over the next 2000 years.
• 1948 CE - The State of Israel declares independence, fights off Arabs. Jordan and Egypt rule parts of the land
• 1967 CE - The State of Israel conquers those remaining parts in the Six-Day War

 Philistia - city-states: Gaza, Ashkelon, Ashdod, Ekron, Gath, Jaffa (near Tel Aviv)
 Phoenicia - city-states: Tyre (Sur), Sidon (Saida), Byblos (Jubayl)

 

[Swammerdami]

I've added a few dates to lpetrich's chronology:

• 1.2 million BCE - first evidence of human predecessors
• 90,000 BCE - anatomically modern human predecessors move in
• 60,000 BCE - Neanderthals move back in - too cold for the AMH's?
• 40,000 BCE - some of our present human species move in - nomadic hunter-gatherers
• 13,000 BCE - Natufians: sedentary HG's in large communities
• 10,000 BCE - Pre-Pottery Neolithic farmers. Jericho: 9,000 BCE
• 6500 BCE - Pottery used
• 4500 BCE - Copper used
• 3500 BCE - Bronze used
• 1550 BCE - Egypt's New Kingdom Levantine empire
• 1350 BCE - Someone named Yahweh, apparently a rival of Ba'al, Zeus et al, provides a stone-inscribed document to Moshe ben Amran, granting the latter revocable title to Palestine. Yahweh himself shows no evidence for his own claim, which is contested by Ba'al and others.
•  1175 BCE - Sea Peoples destroy that empire, the Hittite Empire, and the Mycenaean Greek city-states. Iron used
• 930 BCE - Dual Monarchy
• 732 BCE - Assyria conquers the northern kingdom
• 700 BCE - last sighting of the stone-inscribed quitclaim deed
• 586 BCE - Babylon conquers the southern kindom
• 539 BCE - Persians make Yehud autonomous
• 450 BCE - The Books of Moshe are written, documenting the alleged quitclaim deed from 900 years earlier.
• 332 BCE - Alexander the Great conquers the region
• 160 BCE - Maccabees successfully rebel, make the land independent
• 63 BCE - Romans conquer the land, and it changes hands several times over the next 2000 years.
• 31 CE - Jesus, older brother of James the Just, denounces Yahweh and renounces the claims of his own alleged father Adonai to any Earthly real estate.
• 70 CE - General Titus revokes Yahweh's quitclaim deed, making Judaea a direct possession of his father, Vespasian Emperor of the World.
• 1948 CE - The State of Israel declares independence, fights off Arabs. Jordan and Egypt rule parts of the land
• 1967 CE - The State of Israel conquers those remaining parts in the Six-Day War

 

[repoman]

This is Osama Bin Laden's Letter to America, which was just removed by The Guardian.

In a spoiler box because it is very long:

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Much harder to the point of being pretty much not an option.

Only to pro-genocide cheerleaders for the IDF.

You continue to give no sane details about how they are supposed to go after the perpetrators.

So far you have suggested assassins sneaking in--hopeless in Gaza; and you have suggested drones--once again, hopeless.

So far all you’ve done is contradict yourself and handwave dismissals.

Your bloodlust blinds your reason.

You are asserting they are viable without addressing how that might be done. Your plans sound Republican.

 

[laughing dog]

Much harder to the point of being pretty much not an option.

Only to pro-genocide cheerleaders for the IDF.

You continue to give no sane details about how they are supposed to go after the perpetrators.

So far you have suggested assassins sneaking in--hopeless in Gaza; and you have suggested drones--once again, hopeless.

So far all you’ve done is contradict yourself and handwave dismissals.

Your bloodlust blinds your reason.

You are asserting they are viable without addressing how that might be done. Your plans sound Republican.

Your first statement is observably false. Since you asserted my plans entailed the current IDF actions ( invasion and freeing the hostages) of which you approve, you are contradicting yourself unless you are a Republican.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

You have told me over and over that you don't believe it would result in ethnic cleansing but you continue to advocate for a course of action that would inevitably lead to ethnic cleansing.

There is nothing inevitable about ethnic cleansing. It's a choice bigoted assholes make and indifferent assholes allow, not the destiny of Semitic people to either give or receive.

You choose to ignore that the Palestinians have been calling for ethnic cleansing for decades. They'll suddenly give up that goal if they get in a position to actually do it??

Your idea of peaceful coexistence isn't going to work. It didn't work in India, either--and that was bloodier and more displacement than anything around Israel.

It worked for centuries before the British took over and Europeans began flooding into the area. It worked so well that Palestinian Jews were willing to risk their lives by confronting Zionist terrorists carrying out Plan Dalet to make them stop murdering Palestinian Muslims and Christians. It worked so well that Palestinian Muslims and Christians fleeing murderous Zionists gave the keys to their houses to Palestinian Jews in the nearby towns because they trusted their friends and longtime neighbors to look after their property until they could return.

I was pointing out India. The India/Pakistan partition makes Israel/Palestine look benign.

Yes, I saw. I presume you want to talk about India because

I was comparing the situation. We have two places that were divided between Muslim and non-Muslim after the colonial powers left. It's the logical thing to compare to!

1. you want to bash Muslims and you think you can portray Hindus as victims, and

It was bloody on both sides and continues to be a problem to this day.

2. you don't want to talk about the centuries of friendly, peaceful relations between Palestinian Jews and their Muslim and Christian neighbors.

The peace of blacks under Jim Crow.

If you really want to talk about India before, during, and after the British Raj, go ahead and start a new thread. Don't forget to mention the burning people alive part, though. It's an important part of the story.

I was comparing the post-colonial events.

How about reigning in the Palestinians?

A Jew who goes down the wrong street very well might end up dead. A Palestinian won't.

How about equal treatment under the law?

How about addressing the issue?

Equal treatment under the law is the issue.

Human rights and not being shitty towards people who have different ideas about Biblegod is the issue.

Racism and religious bigotry enshrined as national policy is the issue.

There's also greed and cultural chauvinism at work, but first things first.

You act as if it's only Israel who does wrong. I'm pointing out that a Jew who takes a wrong turn very well might end up dead and you don't think that matters.

How about taking race, religion, and ethnic origin out of the equation when considering what should be done when crimes are committed?

And how does it make a difference? Yes, settler crimes against Palestinians are effectively ignored because they're impossible to prosecute, not because they're above the law. With no cooperation from the Palestinians the police can't even determine if a crime was committed, let alone who did it. (Many of the allegations are clearly false.)

^This is bullshit.^

I'm making two claims here, which are you calling bullshit?

Off the top of my head: Many of the pictures of ripping out "olive" trees aren't olive trees at all and not a tree anyone would cultivate.

How about working towards a fair and just society and away from a society where bigotry is enshrined and racist assholes protected?

And you think you can reform the Palestinians? Because they are far more guilty of this than Israel.

^This is bullshit plus racism.^

In other words, you have no actual rebuttal.

Fatah never tried diplomacy. Sham talks to see what they could get but no willingness to agree to a partition of the territory. Oslo was a case of can-kicking, not a true partition.

^This is an unsupported assertion that appears to be a perfect blend of bullshit, racism, ignorance, and handwaving.^

The Palestinians want their State. They jumped through enough hoops to demonstrate their willingness to jump through hoops to get it. Now it's the Israelis turn to prove their willingness. They can start by letting everyone know where Israel ends and Not-Israel begins.

Nope, they never demonstrated their willingness. At no point have they presented a viable two-state solution.

You and the Israelis should want Fatah to succeed in their diplomacy. I think on some level you do. It's just that Israel wants all of the land it calls Eretz Israel under Israeli control more than it wants Fatah to succeed in defending the Palestinians.

I'd like it if they succeeded but they inherently can't.

They "inherently" can't?

How very anti-Semitic of you to think so.

Has nothing to do with who they are. It has to do with their own laws.

By their law agreeing to a partition carries the death penalty.

You suggested putting a porcupine on Israel's flag as an appropriate symbol of what happens when you mess with it. I think it would be even more appropriate if the flag showed someone trying to swallow a porcupine as a symbol of why Israel still doesn't have a border, and why Israelis still don't have peace.

Israel doesn't have peace because they are the Muslim EastAsia.

Israel doesn't have peace because it keeps stealing land and resources from people in the West Bank, imprisoning millions of civilians in Gaza, and the last Israeli leader who was serious about a peace deal with the Palestinians was murdered by a Zionist for "betraying Zionism".

You blame Israel while ignoring the fact that Fatah has set itself up as completely unable to make peace. Settling for anything less than total victory (destruction of Israel) carries the death penalty. Trying to change that law carries the death penalty. By what path is Fatah supposed to reach peace?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I want to know what the suggestion is for Palestinians who want to leave Gaza and go to the old family home in Ashkelon.

I'm quoting myself because I'd really like to hear what people think about making the results of ethnic cleansing permanent.

I think it's pretty fucking disgraceful.

I think the Israelis built this time bomb and did nothing while the countdown was ticking.

So the Jews should be ethnically cleansed instead?

NO.

Absolutely not.

I have told you so over and over again, Loren. That is your extremist, all-or-nothing mindset talking. I don't share your inability to see the inherent worth and equality in all people regardless of race, religion, creed, or any other factor bigots think is determinative of how they should be treated by their fellow human beings.

You have told me over and over that you don't believe it would result in ethnic cleansing but you continue to advocate for a course of action that would inevitably lead to ethnic cleansing.

Then maybe you should weigh your language better instead of implying Arctish supports ethnic cleansing of the Jewish, which is a reprehensible accusation.

I see a willful blindness to the results.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Much harder to the point of being pretty much not an option.

Only to pro-genocide cheerleaders for the IDF.

You continue to give no sane details about how they are supposed to go after the perpetrators.

So far you have suggested assassins sneaking in--hopeless in Gaza; and you have suggested drones--once again, hopeless.

The US flew into Pakistan, captured/killed bin Laden. It likely wasn't option A, B, C but it wasn't likely bin Laden was going to make himself readily available otherwise.

After years of search and probably with the tacit permission of the government.

Sneaking in is a very very hard plan, very dangerous. Bombs and missiles causing collateral damage also leads to more extremism, so while it is simpler, it isn't nearly as surgical and comes with a ton of baggage. So it isn't exactly a flawless strategy. There is give and take with military tactics. Clearly Israeli military gets this because they didn't flatten the hospital.

Reality doesn't give someone a freebie from consequences just because alternative ideas are hard.

Extremism comes from the money being paid for terror.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

For those who think the reporting is honest:

 

[laughing dog]

Extremism comes from the money being paid for terror.

The extremism is there without the money. The ability to act on terrorism with weaponry comes from money.

 

[barbos]

Hamas and US flock together, that's for sure, especially in Syria.

Ha ha ha

And Trump is unusually honest for a politician and Ukraine attacked Russia...

You're just a hoot, bless your heart.
Tom

Israel support of Hamas early on is just a matter of fact. They admit that.
As well as the fact Hamas was fighting Assad in Syria.