Merged Gaza just launched an unprovoked attack on Israel

[lpetrich]

An immediate ceasefire and de-escalation is urgently needed to save lives.”

As I noted before, that is a stupid demand. Allow Hamas to massacre a thousand Jewish civilians and then have a ceasefire while Hamas revels in its victory.

What would you prefer?

 

[Derec]

Except that there is not much of a place to go to anywhere in the Gaza Strip.

The density of Gaza Strip is often misrepresented. There are densely built up areas, surely, but there are also rural areas. Gaza is really not that small. It is about a third bigger than Queens (109 sq. mi. for Queens, 141 sq. mi. for Gaza) and with a bit smaller population (2.4M for Queens, 2.3M for Gaza). Gaza has a population density of about 16k/sq. mi. Queens is at 22k, and Manhattan at 75k.

Jared Moskowitz on X: "This is Hamas fault and only Hamas.
Israel gives a warning to save lives. The women and children that were murdered in Israel got no warning" / X

He is right. IDF even performs "roof knocks" to allow buildings to be evacuated.

George Chidi (find me on Threads and Substack) on X: "@JaredEMoskowitz Where the fuck are they going to go? Serious question. Gaza is an open-air prison. Travel out of Gaza is broadly prohibited both by Israel and by Egypt. I know this because I was an international peacekeeper in Sinai and saw it first hand. The 2 million people there are trapped." / X

And why won't even their Arab brethren let them in in any large numbers? Because they fear terrorists as much as Israel does. The Rafah crossing is open much of the time though and many Gazans have been going through that crossing in recent years.
But anyway, there are plenty of places in Gaza to go to. As I said, the place is not that small or that densely populated as propaganda would have it. Speaking of propaganda, this "open air prison" BS is just that.
The Gaza you don't see

then
Jared Moskowitz on X: "@neonflag That’s something Hamas should’ve thought of" / X
then
George Takei on X: "@JaredEMoskowitz @neonflag But this would lead to more innocent bloodshed. Punishing millions for the acts of extremists." / X

Why should Israel care more about Palestinian civilians than their own government? Why should Israel refrain from defending itself from brutal genocidal terrorists just because some civilians in Gaza may be
You (and others on the left) want to condemn Israel to inaction while Hamas has free reign.
George Takei's hot take is really disappointing.

Then
Mehdi Hasan on X: "A U.S. Congressman suggesting 2 million people in Gaza should be collectively punished for the actions of Hamas." / X

It is Hamas that is punishing them. Without their terrorist attack, there would be no reason for Israel to retaliate.
Moskovitz had it right the first time - this is all the fault of Hamas and the Tehran regime. Including any and all Palestinian civilian casualties.

Also Mehdi Hasan? The Israel-hater from The Intercept? He is hardly somebody to quote here ...

 

[Derec]

What would you prefer?

Certainly not ceasefire right after >1000 of your citizens got brutally massacred.
Ideally, destruction of Hamas and Islamic Jihad and eventually lasting peace and prosperity for both nations.
Germany and Japan became peaceful and prosperous. But not by Allies being pressured into a ceasefire in December 1941.

 

[lpetrich]

Bertrand Russell – Nobel Lecture - NobelPrize.org
At one point he gets to reasons for hating Communists.

"Fourthly, we hate them because they do not allow liberty; this we feel so strongly that we have decided to imitate them."

That's what I'm seeing here, that what Hamas did was so horrible that it is necessary to do what was supposed to be so horrible about Hamas.

 

[Derec]

Terrell Jermaine Starr on X: "Haaretz is a great publication.
I can't recall any of the major U.S. news outlets being as critical of their nation's politics as Haaretz is of Israel.
They are hardcore nailing Bibi's ass to the wall and it has been unrelenting.
U.S. media could learn from these fine folks." / X

They are a left wing publication. They are always critical of the government that is not Labour.
That said, did Terrell miss how critical most US media have been of all things Trump?

Haaretz.com on X: "Netanyahu bears responsibility for this Israel-Gaza war (link)" / X

Intelligence failures happened on his watch and he bears responsibility for them. But chief responsibility is still on Hamas and the Tehran regime. It's like claiming that Bush bears more responsibility for 9/11 than ObL.

This got this comment:
Jeet Heer on X: "Shin Bet has gone woke" / X

Maybe Shin Bet should have minded what Hamas was doing better.

 

[Derec]

That's what I'm seeing here, that what Hamas did was so horrible that it is necessary to do what was supposed to be so horrible about Hamas.

IDF is not doing anything remotely akin to what Hamas has been doing.
The very suggestion is libelous.

 

[Derec]

Gaza’s 2+ million population are mostly children, who live under blockade in what Israel’s own former intelligence chief has called an open air prison.

A "prison" with fancy restaurants and resorts.

The overwhelming majority live in poverty.

And whose fault is that? Hamasniks live in luxury. Many of them in Qatar.
Israel actually issued some work visas for Gazans to work in Israel. Of course, with this attack that program will not be resumed for quite some time, if ever. This will harm not only those workers and their families but also the shops and cafes where they spent their increased disposable income.
Israel okays 1,500 more entry permits for Gaza workers, bringing total to 17,000

Many suffer lifelong psychological and physical trauma.

Because of the wars Hamas and Islamic Jihad has been starting. Also because of things like rioting at the border fence, something also encouraged by Hamas and Islamic Jihad.

we must honor the humanity of the innocent Palestinian civilians who have been killed and whose lives are upended.

True. But we also must recognize that it is Hamas who upended their lives.
Many ordinary German civilians suffered and died while Allies bombed and pushed into German territory. And yet, the whole thing is the fault of the Nazis. Hamas are no different than Nazis except even more barbaric.

Palestinian residents of the West Bank have scarcely better lives than Gazans—with the routine destruction of their ancestral homes, destruction of their crops, and violent attacks by Israeli settlers.

They also engage in attacks on Israeli troops and civilians.
Palestinian shooting attack in downtown Tel Aviv kills Israeli security guard
This shooter came from Jenin, a terrorist stronghold in Samaria (northern West Bank).

According to Amnesty International, Human Rights watch, the UN, and Israeli human rights group B’Tselem these policies meet the definition of apartheid. We know occupation and systematic apartheid are a violation of international law and it must end.

All these groups are biased against Israel. Even B'Tselem.

As the world is condemning Hamas’s attacks, we must also oppose an Israeli military response that has already taken the lives of hundreds of Palestinians, including nearly two dozen children.

What does she suggest Israel do against Hamas other than overwhelming military response?

The Israeli Defense Minister has called Palestinians ‘human animals’ and promised to cut off all electricity, all food, and all fuel to civilians in Gaza.

He has called Hamas "human animals".

This is collective punishment, a war crime, and the U.S. should oppose any violations of international law if we truly support a rules-based international order.

Why should Israel supply stuff to the people that are actively trying to massacre them?
Has US delivered food, electricity and fuel to Nazi Germany? Not doing so has nothing to do with "collective punishment".

We must learn from the mistakes of our own war on terror—that military action alone rarely addresses the root causes. That peace and justice will not come from the barrel of a gun.

Military action alone perhaps not. But military action is a necessary prerequisite. Hamas must be crushed. They have stepped over the moral event horizon. There is no going back.

And that targeting an entire civilian population will only sow more discord and perpetuate the cycle of violence.

Or maybe Gazans will figure out once and for all that Hamas is bad for them. Germans got it.

The solution to this horror, as ever, is a negotiated peace—with Israelis and Palestinians enjoying equal rights and security guarantees.

Israel tried that. Repeatedly. Remember the summit between Arafat and Barak mediated by Clinton? Arafat not only rejected peace, he started the Second Intifada, a terror campaign that lasted for years and directly led to the current situation with Hamas ruled Gaza Strip and Jenin wasp nest.

Instead of continuing unconditional weapons sales and military aid to Israel, I urge the United States at long last to use its diplomatic might to push for peace.

Peace cannot come until Hamas is crushed.

 

[Derec]

Of course you did. You admitted you made an inference.

Of course I did make an inference. So did you, albeit a wrong one. That has nothing to do with "conflating" anything. Do you even know what that word means?
But these semantic games of yours are silly. They are merely there so you don't have to admit that DSA in fact does support Hamas terrorism.

In order for a write to "imply something", intent is necessary. Something you have not shown. Just like your misunderstanding of "inference", "implied" "evidence", and "resistance", you don't understand "intent" as well.

You are the one misunderstanding all these terms. The evidence is the rally itself that happened on Sunday. I posted an article about it. It shows my inference was correct. Hardly surprising, as I based it on the timing of the rally and the common usage of the word "resistance" in those circles.

Not to the dead or their surviving families. Your apologia of the IDF's killing of civilians is intellectually lazy, morally reprehensible and pure bigotry,

Wrong. You equating collateral damage with deliberate massacre of civilians is all that. Do you also think there is no difference between US bombing ISIS targets and ISIS terrorists massacring people in the Bataclan theater?
 November 2015 Paris attacks

 

[lpetrich]

Why should Israel supply stuff to the people that are actively trying to massacre them?

Seems like making no difference between Hamas and Gaza civilians.

And that targeting an entire civilian population will only sow more discord and perpetuate the cycle of violence.

Or maybe Gazans will figure out once and for all that Hamas is bad for them. Germans got it.

How many Gazan civilians will it be necessary to kill for that to happen?

They are more likely to consider Hamas their defenders.

 

[Derec]

So your answer really is yes. I'm more surprised that you admit it than that it is true.

It is not a sufficient condition for peace, but it is a necessary one. Those who want a negotiated peace while Hamas and Islamic Jihad use the lull to arm themselves to the teeth are putting the cart before the horse.

I'm talking about reality though, not pretend alternate timelines into which one can write whatever story one likes to justify one's political stance.

I am the one talking about reality here not about some kumbaya fantasies.

I take it you haven't been watching the news. Hitler's war is not over, there are Neo-Nazis seeking powerful positions throughout the US and Europe.

Where are there "Neo-Nazis in powerful positions in US and Europe"? Please be specific.

There are Neo-Nazis, of course. For example at that pro-Hamas rally in NYC.

There are Nazis in Gaza too.

And you are evading. How does what you wrote change my point that Nazi government of Germany had to be crushed for there to be peace? Just like the islamofascist government of Gaza must be crushed for there to be peace. It will not end all islamofascist ideology of course. But it is still a necessary thing to do. Just like it was good to end ISIS as a territorial entity even if there is still ISIS in some form.

It's not as simple as war or peace. War comes, but how it is conducted is not pre-ordained, nor the aftermath. And there is always an aftermath, because no war can be waged indefinitely.

Of course. And yet, to not fight evil because war cannot be conducted without civilian casualties is to capitulate to evil.

 

[Derec]

Seems like making no difference between Hamas and Gaza civilians.

Any supplies would be diverted from the civilians to Hamas fighters anyway.
And again, why should it be the responsibility of Israel to supply their mortal enemies? Did US supply ordinary Germans doing WWII? Were Allies engaging in "collective punishment" for not sending food and diesel fuel to Munich?

How many Gazan civilians will it be necessary to kill for that to happen?

I don't know. As few as possible. But civilian casualties should not condemn civilized societies to not fight. Otherwise, there can be no survival for civilization.

They are more likely to consider Hamas their defenders.

Eventually the truth might get through their thick heads. Hopefully before a piece of rebar does.

 

[Derec]

Tell me you know fuck all about the IRA's history without telling you know fuck all about the IRA's history.

I am not saying that they were not a terrorist organization that did many bad things. Just that they were nowhere close to Hamas either in aims (they never advocated destruction of UK and genociding the English to my knowledge) or means (they never massacred hundreds of concert goers for example).
If you know otherwise, please share.

Although your penchant for memes suggests there is a non zero chance you actually believe the Alan Rickman/Liam Neeson movie is a documentary.

There is IRA in Love Actually?

 

[Derec]

You realize that there are still Nazis around. You cannot crush ideas and hatred.

Sure. And many of them are in the pro-Palestine movement.

But they have far less power than they did in 1941. Or the power they would have had had the Allies refused to fight them.

 

[Derec]

Does anyone not think the Palestinians have valid grievances?

Yes, they do, but they are largely self-inflicted.
Take Gaza. Before the 2nd Intifada many Gazans worked inside Israel. Life was far better for Gazans. Then came the 2nd Intifada, which led to disengagement, which led to Hamas takeover, which led to rocket attacks on Israel, which led to the "blockade", which led to what we have now. High poverty, high unemployment, harsh security checks for medical travel (because Hamas abused the program). All this just because Hamas wants to kill Jews.

The West Bank has long been under military occupation. Israel controls building permits and condemns Palestinian property, bulldozes it, and gives permits to Israelis.

Occupation would have ended a long time ago had Arafat not rejected the peace proposals and instead started the Second Intifada.
Later, had Gaza stayed peaceful after disengagement, it would have shown that it is possible to live side-by-side in peace with an independent State of Palestine. But Gazans chose war, chose terror, and made it so much harder for West Bank to achieve any degree of additional autonomy. Nobody wants a second Gaza Strip, just 16 times larger!

It is all predictable. Video at the end of Israel bombing of a refugee camp. What constitutes a war crime?

The term "refugee camp" is a misnomer here. Those things have started as refugee camps, 75 years ago. Now they are cities in their own right. And a lot of them are strongholds of Hamas or Islamic Jihad, and therefore have military targets in them that are fair game. Jabalia was targeted yesterday - that "camp" is a major Hamas stronghold.

The problem is as we see right no, we see little in or media but the Israeli side. Little resorting on what Israel does in occupying the West Bank.

Bullshit. There are many anti-Israel media. Al Jazeera for example is a major one and very one-sided. So are online/print sources like The Intercept, The Nation, or Democracy Now. Even mainstream outlets like MSNBC and CNN have a lot of anti-Israel content.

[CNN clip with Omar Baddar]

You claim there "little in or media but the Israeli side"[sic] but then show us CNN interviewing a Palestinian activist. SMH.

 

[Derec]

Fuck, that happens, why wouldn't Iran deliver a nuclear weapon to Tel Aviv?

We should bomb bomb bomb bomb bomb Iran before they make a nuclear bomb.

What is your solution to this? Keeping Hamas in power is no more tenable than keeping Nazis in power was in 1944. And hell, with a few more years they could have made their own bomb. Put it on a V2 - ain't appeasement grand?

 

[Derec]

I proposed a solution to this issue years ago. Give as much military hardware to the Islamist Gazans as we give the Israeli Zionists.
Tom

That's a horrible "solution".
By that logic, should we give military hardware to ISIS too? How about Russia?

 

[Derec]

If Derec and other apologists for these brutalities were alive in 1944 I suppose they'd be condemning the Warsaw Uprising as "unprovoked," conveniently ignoring what the Uprising was in response to.

It is Hamas that is Naziesque. Had you and Rashida Tlaib and other apologists for these brutalities been alive in 1944 you would be saying that we should not be fighting Nazi Germany because some innocent German might get killed. And that the war is totally the fault of the Allies. And the Jews.

Now watch the Yahoos call me "anti-Semitic" for calling Israel's atrocities what they are.

If the green headband fits ...

 

[Derec]

"Civilians are to be protected from murder, torture or brutality

Hamas is committing murder, torture and brutality against Israelis and is using their own people as human shields. But it's Israel that's the bad guy here because they won't supply a territory that is in an open genocidal war against them.

 

[Derec]

But OMG I support Hamas for saying this.

You certainly sound like a Hamas supporter, yes.

 

[Swammerdami]

If Derec and other apologists for these brutalities were alive in 1944 I suppose they'd be condemning the Warsaw Uprising as "unprovoked," conveniently ignoring what the Uprising was in response to.

It is Hamas that is Naziesque. Had you and Rashida Tlaib and other apologists for these brutalities been alive in 1944 you would be saying that we should not be fighting Nazi Germany because some innocent German might get killed. And that the war is totally the fault of the Allies. And the Jews.

Wrong again, as usual. Surely you've seen movies showing how the gates imprisoning Jews in the Warsaw Ghetto operated. Israel does much the same in the "occupied" territories where it commits on-going atrocities.

Now watch the Yahoos call me "anti-Semitic" for calling Israel's atrocities what they are.

If the green headband fits ...

This is an insult in violation of ToU. You don't avoid prosecution by using "cutesy" cliches you consider humorous.
I won't report this to the Moderators; insults are preferable to ignorance and stupidity anyway. And, as vile as many of your posts are, I think you're kept around to boost the average IQ of the right-wingers here.