Merged Gaza just launched an unprovoked attack on Israel

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

Yea I don’t blame the Israelis to not wanting to be taken hostage!

There is no one in this thread who blames the Israelis for not wanting to be taken hostage...or for that matter for not wanting to be tortured or murdered. Those things do not really address more nuanced problems with the doctrines and how those policies are consistent with the observations we are seeing now.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

And where are you getting the notion that any of us think civilians are valid targets??

The shooting of civilians who aren't even enemies, but rather are escaped hostages, is a very strong hint indeed...

No. The problem was one of identification. Hamas frequently tries to lure the IDF in with ruses, a couple of soldiers thought it was another such ruse. When you expect fake surrenders sometimes real surrenders will be missed.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Is there anyone here who thinks what Hamas has done was morally righteous? I certainly don't.

I have no idea where you got the idea I might disagree with Hume, or that I think kidnapping and raping is justified, or anything of the sort.

We get that idea because you're always trying to blame Israel for Hamas actions.

... unless you decided to walk back your definition of "oppression" ten seconds after you typed it. You appear to be trying to disappear the "power or" part out of your definition and throw it down the memory hole. You're now implying people need to have "authority" to qualify as oppressors and having power is not enough. So that's a great big "Yes", you do want to bandy words over technicalities about the definition of "oppression".

No.

I want to use the words that provide the most accurate descriptions of things, not the ones people like to throw down because they like the sound of them.

You're not rebutting him--we have a whole bunch of massacred Israelis. Is that not oppression? Why, because they are Jews rather than people?

What the Afrikaaners did to the black South Africans wasn't an outrage merely because they used their "authority" unjustly. It was an outrage because they used their power unjustly. People who equate Israelis with Afrikaaners are trying to misrepresent the two-way relation of the current conflict as a one-way relation such as the one in apartheid South Africa. It's disinformation, intellectually dishonesty, cheap propaganda -- regardless of what clauses they include or exclude from their definition of "oppression".

Apartheid is a government-enforced system of segregation and discrimination. Classification of citizens into categories that determine their treatment under the law is a basic feature. So is forcing people to live where the state dictates they must live.

Israel fits the description of an apartheid state, which is why people call it one.

No. Plenty of Arabs living in Israel with the same rights as everyone else. The distinction is Israeli/non-Israeli. If that's apartheid then every country in the world is apartheid.

If the person(s) doing the raping, kidnapping, or murdering was some random asshole or I was not living under an unjust system that protected the abuser, then I would feel threatened, endangered, attacked, or something similar.

And a system where terrorists can prepare their crimes in peace, and cross the border to rape, kidnap and murder, and then go back to Gaza and parade their success and not be arrested by the local authorities is a just system, is it?

WTF are you talking about?

The only people here who have ever attempted to justify cross-border murders and rapes are Derec and Loren. Didn't you notice?

You keep trying to deflect blame from Hamas.

Israel and the PA are not at war. Israel is at war with Hamas, because Israel has recognized Hamas as the de facto government in Gaza. The West Bank remains under the (very limited) governmental authority of the PA, which is currently led by Abbas and the Fatah faction of the PLO.

Neither the PA nor Hamas abuses their governmental power over Israelis because they don't have any.

The victims of 10/7 would beg to disagree.

The Afrikaaners and the black South Africans were not at war. If the Palestinians want their accusations of oppression to have any truth they need to sign a peace treaty.

They did.

Look up the Oslo Accords sometime. Check out the signatures at the bottom. Then look up the peace process in the 1990s and see just how far along things went before Rabin was murdered.

"Process". They "agreed" (but didn't honor) to various small things but kicked the can on the important stuff. It's about as meaningful as the various climate accords.

And then check out the current peace offers Abbas and the PA have been working on.

You mean where they demand concessions just to come to the table? That's "working on"?

How it's actually gone: Israel/PA made an agreement that was very front-loaded in favor of the Palestinians. This was quickly abandoned once it wasn't one-sided, Israel learned better. Then they switched to demanding concessions in order to talk. Israel was pressured into accepting this--and learned better.

Governments, especially the ones that have control over the lives of people they do not recognize as citizens or full members of society, can be very oppressive.

Hamas had total control over the lives of the people they raped, kidnapped and murdered, and they certainly don't recognize them as citizens or full members of society.

Kidnappers usually have that kind of control unless their victims can escape. That doesn't make what they do something other than kidnapping.

And how is it not oppression?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

You are the one avoiding reality. Thousands, perhaps as much as 20,000 Gazans, have been slaughtered. The actual reasoning for it is as punishment so these kinds of attacks don't happen again. They, of course, also hope to kill terrorists and free hostages but the recklessness is protocol. The destruction of infrastructure as well is deliberate and preemptive to provide no support even theoretical to Hamas. All broadbrushing Gazans does is obfuscate the issues. Instead of broadbrushing, people should just admit they are okay with killing civilian children in a bizarre hope to keep Israel safer longer term.

I'm not going to bother to address the repeated twisting, just this part.

20,000 Gazans (which is probably in the ballpark of accurate as both Israel and Hamas give similar numbers), Israel figures about 8,000 Hamas--for combat in a built-up area that is an extremely good ratio. Furthermore, if Israel's intent were simply to kill they would have killed a lot more. In practice they are killing approximately one person per bomb. For bombing a city lacking in civil defenses that's an incredibly low rate. It is obvious that most of their targets are not people.

Note, also, that we have approximately 2,000 rockets that fell into Gaza. And we have multiple incidents that look like Hamas deliberately killing people to blame Israel. The latest I'm aware of:

New crime against humanity: Israeli army summarily executed 11 unarmed Palestinians in Gaza City on 19 December - Survivors - War on Gaza - War on Gaza

Palestinians described to Al Jazeera the grisly details of how the Israeli army summarily executed 11 unarmed Palestinian men in the Al-Remal neighbourhood in Gaza City in the early evening hours on 19 December.

english.ahram.org.eg

Really, now? Eyewitnesses don't normally have such radically different claims about what happened. And Israel has no record of troops in the area. However, Hamas does sometimes fight in IDF uniforms (part of what slowed the response to 10/7.) And note the bit of direct fire from mortars. Direct fire from artillery is a desperation measure (and likely not even possible with a mortar)--yet there's no hint that they had any reason to resort to desperate measures. These aren't witnesses, they are repeating what they were told.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

The argument that civilians are valid targets is the same argument Hamas used. That's why Hamas is evil. I don't want people in my country or in Israel to make the same argument (or anything 1 or 2 steps away from it) because I hold our country and our allies to a higher standard than desperate terrorists.

And where are you getting the notion that any of us think civilians are valid targets??

You keep making excuses for it and things almost as bad: my words were "or anything 1 or 2 steps away from it."

You keep ignoring the reality of war.

The problem is threefold:

1) The fact that Hamas fights in civilian attire means soldiers will fire based on behavior rather than attire--and mistakes are likely. This doesn't make civilians targets, it just means they're likely to be hit by mistake.

20,000 civilians is not a "mistake."

Could you actually address the point???

The discussion was about the dead hostages.

And we don't have 20,000 dead civilians. Both sides give similar estimates for the dead--but Israel says 8,000 Hamas. And when the dust settles the Israeli numbers are almost always pretty close to reality.

2) Many "civilians" are doing non-combat military things. Including a lot of children. It doesn't matter if the person carrying the bomb is a combatant or someone impressed into temporary service.

40% of 20,000 is 8,000 minors. And thousands of women. Prove your claim by showing these thousands were "carrying the bomb."

I'm not saying they were all carrying bombs. I'm saying that many of the civilians are quasi combatants. And we have this find:

3) Hamas deliberate acts to maximize civilian casualties. It's pretty much impossible to avoid civilian casualties in such an environment. (And non-action is still an action. Doing nothing means more 10/7s--with Israeli civilian casualties.)

False dichotomy: either kill tens of thousands of Palestinian civilians or a thousand Israeli civilians.

So Israel should simply allow it's people to be massacred because it's opponents are sufficiently ruthless?

You've fallen for the world-is-good fallacy--that there must be a good solution and therefore any solution that has bad aspects is proof the side with power didn't try hard enough.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Just saw an article that seems pretty timely given discussion.

Airstrike kills U.N. worker and his family.

Issam Al Mughrabi, who had worked at the U.N Development Program for 30 years, and his wife, his five children, and more than 70 members of his extended family, Achim Steiner, an administrator at the agency, said in a statement.

www.nytimes.com

The claim has already been walked back.

And I note the article refers to this one: https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/17/world/middleeast/gaza-al-astal-loss.html

Never mind that several of them have been martyred over the years--combatants, some high ranking members of Hamas.

I suspect both articles are about equally accurate in their portrayal of them as innocents.

Your claims sound faithful.

Here is a better link.

Statement on the killing of UNDP staff member and family in Gaza

I am deeply saddened to announce the death of our UNDP colleague and his family in Gaza today. Issam Al Mughrabi (56), his wife Lamya’a (53), and his children Mohammad (32), Suad (30), Lama (27), Luai (23), Obaideh (13), were killed by an Israeli air strike near Gaza City today. The airstrike...

www.undp.org

Yeah, "better" in that it hasn't been walked back.

From the original link:

A correction was made on
Dec. 23, 2023
An earlier version of this article misstated what was known about an airstrike that killed a U.N. worker. The strike killed the worker and his immediate family; it could not be immediately confirmed whether members of his extended family were killed as well.

In other words, it's just his family. It's too early for all the details, but the UN has been known to order people to act as human shields for Hezbollah.

 

[Arctish]

Is there anyone here who thinks what Hamas has done was morally righteous? I certainly don't.

I have no idea where you got the idea I might disagree with Hume, or that I think kidnapping and raping is justified, or anything of the sort.

We get that idea because you're always trying to blame Israel for Hamas actions.

Support this claim.

While you're at it, support the many claims you have made in this thread.

Piling on the bullshit is not providing support, so don't even bother going that route.

... unless you decided to walk back your definition of "oppression" ten seconds after you typed it. You appear to be trying to disappear the "power or" part out of your definition and throw it down the memory hole. You're now implying people need to have "authority" to qualify as oppressors and having power is not enough. So that's a great big "Yes", you do want to bandy words over technicalities about the definition of "oppression".

No.

I want to use the words that provide the most accurate descriptions of things, not the ones people like to throw down because they like the sound of them.

You're not rebutting him--we have a whole bunch of massacred Israelis. Is that not oppression? Why, because they are Jews rather than people?

FFS, I linked to the definition of oppression I am using. If you can't be bothered to follow a link then stop cluttering up the thread with your ignorant nonsense.

What the Afrikaaners did to the black South Africans wasn't an outrage merely because they used their "authority" unjustly. It was an outrage because they used their power unjustly. People who equate Israelis with Afrikaaners are trying to misrepresent the two-way relation of the current conflict as a one-way relation such as the one in apartheid South Africa. It's disinformation, intellectually dishonesty, cheap propaganda -- regardless of what clauses they include or exclude from their definition of "oppression".

Apartheid is a government-enforced system of segregation and discrimination. Classification of citizens into categories that determine their treatment under the law is a basic feature. So is forcing people to live where the state dictates they must live.

Israel fits the description of an apartheid state, which is why people call it one.

No. Plenty of Arabs living in Israel with the same rights as everyone else. The distinction is Israeli/non-Israeli. If that's apartheid then every country in the world is apartheid.

Remember that discussion we had when a group of Israelis tried to get their national ID to list them as 'Israelis' rather than 'Jews' or 'Arabs' or whatnot, and the Israeli version of the Supreme Court ruled against them saying that Israel exists for the benefit of Jews so the State needs to distinguish between Jews and non-Jews so that it's policies will always favor the former?

I do.

Remember that village of Israelis you told us about that the State of Israel tried to strip of their citizenship because they weren't Jews?

I do.

Remember that time Israel was going to evict Israelis and build a new settlement block where they had been living but the Israelis would not be eligible to live in the new housing or even remain in the area because they weren't Jews?

I do.

Remember all of those times you defended discriminatory and segregationist policies in Israel because it is The Jewish State, not the State where a lot of Jews live?

I do.

If the person(s) doing the raping, kidnapping, or murdering was some random asshole or I was not living under an unjust system that protected the abuser, then I would feel threatened, endangered, attacked, or something similar.

And a system where terrorists can prepare their crimes in peace, and cross the border to rape, kidnap and murder, and then go back to Gaza and parade their success and not be arrested by the local authorities is a just system, is it?

WTF are you talking about?

The only people here who have ever attempted to justify cross-border murders and rapes are Derec and Loren. Didn't you notice?

You keep trying to deflect blame from Hamas.

No.

I have said many times in this thread that Hamas needs to be defeated both on the ground and at the ballot box. I have explicitly denounced the murders, rapes, and other acts of terrorism. And I have consistently argued for a fair, just, peaceful resolution that respects the rights of all persons in the region, not just one particular demographic, which includes thwarting racist Islamist ambitions just as much as thwarting racist Zionist goals.

I do not excuse Israel for the actions of the IDF, Israeli politicians, and Israeli government officials. That is the sticking point for you. I don't blame Israel or Israelis in general for everything the extreme Zionists do, but I do blame them when they encourage the right wingers to be violent asshats by providing material support and political cover.

If the Israelis want peace they will have to allow the peacemakers to succeed.

BTW, how's your research into the negotiations from the Oslo Accords to the present coming along? Have you even bothered to start?

Israel and the PA are not at war. Israel is at war with Hamas, because Israel has recognized Hamas as the de facto government in Gaza. The West Bank remains under the (very limited) governmental authority of the PA, which is currently led by Abbas and the Fatah faction of the PLO.

Neither the PA nor Hamas abuses their governmental power over Israelis because they don't have any.

The victims of 10/7 would beg to disagree.

The ones who can read and understand English well enough to make use of English language lexicons like the Cambridge dictionary would.

The Afrikaaners and the black South Africans were not at war. If the Palestinians want their accusations of oppression to have any truth they need to sign a peace treaty.

They did.

Look up the Oslo Accords sometime. Check out the signatures at the bottom. Then look up the peace process in the 1990s and see just how far along things went before Rabin was murdered.

"Process". They "agreed" (but didn't honor) to various small things but kicked the can on the important stuff. It's about as meaningful as the various climate accords.

And then check out the current peace offers Abbas and the PA have been working on.

You mean where they demand concessions just to come to the table? That's "working on"?

How it's actually gone: Israel/PA made an agreement that was very front-loaded in favor of the Palestinians. This was quickly abandoned once it wasn't one-sided, Israel learned better. Then they switched to demanding concessions in order to talk. Israel was pressured into accepting this--and learned better.

Link to your sources. Let everyone read what was offered by whom, and when these alleged demands were made.

Governments, especially the ones that have control over the lives of people they do not recognize as citizens or full members of society, can be very oppressive.

Hamas had total control over the lives of the people they raped, kidnapped and murdered, and they certainly don't recognize them as citizens or full members of society.

Kidnappers usually have that kind of control unless their victims can escape. That doesn't make what they do something other than kidnapping.

And how is it not oppression?

I already told you I'm not going to pretend I think you're stupid or just a kid.

You can do better than ^this^.

 

[bilby]

And where are you getting the notion that any of us think civilians are valid targets??

The shooting of civilians who aren't even enemies, but rather are escaped hostages, is a very strong hint indeed...

No. The problem was one of identification. Hamas frequently tries to lure the IDF in with ruses, a couple of soldiers thought it was another such ruse. When you expect fake surrenders sometimes real surrenders will be missed.

If you believe that, you'll believe anything.

I have rarely heard such sycophantic apologetic bullshit in my life.

Surely you can't say such things with a straight face. It's utterly monumental bullshit.

 

[bilby]

we have a whole bunch of massacred Israelis. Is that not oppression? Why, because they are Jews rather than people?

No, it's because "oppression" has an actual meaning, and the latest Hamas evil doesn't fit that meaning. It isn't oppression, even if it is vile.

Do you even English?

 

[laughing dog]

No. The problem was one of identification. Hamas frequently tries to lure the IDF in with ruses, a couple of soldiers thought it was another such ruse. When you expect fake surrenders sometimes real surrenders will be missed.

For one who claims to be looking for the root causes, you don’t seem willing to go above the surface in your search.

Once you ask yourself why these soldiers did not bother to expend a little effort in identification, you’d see how unconvincing your response is. Especially since one of the bedrock rationales for the invasion was to effect the return of the hostages alive.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

No. The problem was one of identification. Hamas frequently tries to lure the IDF in with ruses, a couple of soldiers thought it was another such ruse. When you expect fake surrenders sometimes real surrenders will be missed.

So if you think an unarmed, half-naked person with their hands up with a white flag is fake surrendering, you just murder them? You don't contain them and force them to surrender afterward? Where did you say you received your military training again?

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

You keep ignoring the reality of war.

Perhaps I am taking this a little too personally, but I am kind of insulted by it. I did Basic Training at Ft Jackson, SC and AIT at Ft Lee, VA. I was in the USAR. We were taught the UCMJ as part of rigorous training. They didn't tell us to shoot unarmed people and while I didn't go to war, I suspect you didn't have that same training--to include UCMJ derived from laws of war, domestic law, and Geneva. Could you perhaps explain where you are getting your info?

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

Just saw an article that seems pretty timely given discussion.

Airstrike kills U.N. worker and his family.

Issam Al Mughrabi, who had worked at the U.N Development Program for 30 years, and his wife, his five children, and more than 70 members of his extended family, Achim Steiner, an administrator at the agency, said in a statement.

www.nytimes.com

The claim has already been walked back.

And I note the article refers to this one: https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/17/world/middleeast/gaza-al-astal-loss.html

Never mind that several of them have been martyred over the years--combatants, some high ranking members of Hamas.

I suspect both articles are about equally accurate in their portrayal of them as innocents.

Your claims sound faithful.

Here is a better link.

Statement on the killing of UNDP staff member and family in Gaza

I am deeply saddened to announce the death of our UNDP colleague and his family in Gaza today. Issam Al Mughrabi (56), his wife Lamya’a (53), and his children Mohammad (32), Suad (30), Lama (27), Luai (23), Obaideh (13), were killed by an Israeli air strike near Gaza City today. The airstrike...

www.undp.org

Yeah, "better" in that it hasn't been walked back.

Better as in more accessible, not hidden behind a paywall.

From the original link:

A correction was made on
Dec. 23, 2023
An earlier version of this article misstated what was known about an airstrike that killed a U.N. worker. The strike killed the worker and his immediate family; it could not be immediately confirmed whether members of his extended family were killed as well.

In other words, it's just his family. It's too early for all the details, but the UN has been known to order people to act as human shields for Hezbollah.

I cannot get behind the paywall. Please show everyone where it says the UN was protecting terrorists in the article.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

You are the one avoiding reality. Thousands, perhaps as much as 20,000 Gazans, have been slaughtered. The actual reasoning for it is as punishment so these kinds of attacks don't happen again. They, of course, also hope to kill terrorists and free hostages but the recklessness is protocol. The destruction of infrastructure as well is deliberate and preemptive to provide no support even theoretical to Hamas. All broadbrushing Gazans does is obfuscate the issues. Instead of broadbrushing, people should just admit they are okay with killing civilian children in a bizarre hope to keep Israel safer longer term.

I'm not going to bother to address the repeated twisting, just this part.

Don't accuse me of twisting things. Argue against the point, not the person.

20,000 Gazans (which is probably in the ballpark of accurate as both Israel and Hamas give similar numbers), Israel figures about 8,000 Hamas--for combat in a built-up area that is an extremely good ratio.

The 8000 figure comes partly comes from IDF soldiers many of whom could be reckless just like we observe. Suppose the worst case hypothetical is one of profiling male Palestinians looking like 15 yrs old and above. Males above 18 alone out of 20K would be 6000 people just by chance. Add in 15-17 yr old males, you're pretty much almost at 8000 right there. Just due to chance of randomly killing 20,000 people.

Based on that, how would you conclude that is "good" to use your word?

How also have you verified the 8000 were Hamas (the best case scenario)? In that case, you feel entitled to declare 12,000 civilian deaths are worth 8000 Hamas deaths, i.e. "good?"

Have you considered 8000 is both a bit high and many >12,000 innocents' families and friends will become terrorists? That is how the Islamo-Judeo-Christian eye for an eye code has been creating this cycle of violence that you approve of.

Furthermore, if Israel's intent were simply to kill they would have killed a lot more. In practice they are killing approximately one person per bomb. For bombing a city lacking in civil defenses that's an incredibly low rate. It is obvious that most of their targets are not people.

Their bombing rate isn't low. It's quite high in comparison to past wars.

Note, also, that we have approximately 2,000 rockets that fell into Gaza. And we have multiple incidents that look like Hamas deliberately killing people to blame Israel. The latest I'm aware of:

New crime against humanity: Israeli army summarily executed 11 unarmed Palestinians in Gaza City on 19 December - Survivors - War on Gaza - War on Gaza

Palestinians described to Al Jazeera the grisly details of how the Israeli army summarily executed 11 unarmed Palestinian men in the Al-Remal neighbourhood in Gaza City in the early evening hours on 19 December.

english.ahram.org.eg

Really, now? Eyewitnesses don't normally have such radically different claims about what happened. And Israel has no record of troops in the area. However, Hamas does sometimes fight in IDF uniforms (part of what slowed the response to 10/7.) And note the bit of direct fire from mortars. Direct fire from artillery is a desperation measure (and likely not even possible with a mortar)--yet there's no hint that they had any reason to resort to desperate measures. These aren't witnesses, they are repeating what they were told.

IDF says it has virtual operational control. So it seems a bit far-fetched of you to claim that Hamas is able to wear IDF uniforms and steal tanks to frame IDF. As for myself, I am not familiar with the website, don't know if it is reliable, not even on my radar to consider. I suggest you should stick to more mainstream news sources.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

Israeli airstrikes kill more than 100 as assault on Gaza widens | Gaza | The Guardian

‘Safe’ evacuation zone of Deir al-Balah is hit amid some of the deadliest fighting in the war

amp.theguardian.com

 

[Loren Pechtel]

And where are you getting the notion that any of us think civilians are valid targets??

The shooting of civilians who aren't even enemies, but rather are escaped hostages, is a very strong hint indeed...

No. The problem was one of identification. Hamas frequently tries to lure the IDF in with ruses, a couple of soldiers thought it was another such ruse. When you expect fake surrenders sometimes real surrenders will be missed.

If you believe that, you'll believe anything.

I have rarely heard such sycophantic apologetic bullshit in my life.

Surely you can't say such things with a straight face. It's utterly monumental bullshit.

You are so determined that Israel is bad and Hamas is doing good that you are blind to the truth. We know they used IDF uniforms in 10/7.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

we have a whole bunch of massacred Israelis. Is that not oppression? Why, because they are Jews rather than people?

No, it's because "oppression" has an actual meaning, and the latest Hamas evil doesn't fit that meaning. It isn't oppression, even if it is vile.

Do you even English?

Hamas considers all of Israel to be their territory. Thus they massacred Jews in what they consider their territory. Not oppression?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I cannot get behind the paywall. Please show everyone where it says the UN was protecting terrorists in the article.

It doesn't say they were protecting terrorists. It says that the claims of dozens of civilians being dead isn't supported. Of course the NY Times won't admit the original was disinformation but it almost certainly was.

And when a family dies at once it's Israel hitting a Hamas commander.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Don't accuse me of twisting things. Argue against the point, not the person.

I'm getting tired of the eternal arguments about irrelevant details.

20,000 Gazans (which is probably in the ballpark of accurate as both Israel and Hamas give similar numbers), Israel figures about 8,000 Hamas--for combat in a built-up area that is an extremely good ratio.

The 8000 figure comes partly comes from IDF soldiers many of whom could be reckless just like we observe. Suppose the worst case hypothetical is one of profiling male Palestinians looking like 15 yrs old and above. Males above 18 alone out of 20K would be 6000 people just by chance. Add in 15-17 yr old males, you're pretty much almost at 8000 right there. Just due to chance of randomly killing 20,000 people.

Israel's numbers generally turn out to be pretty close to reality.

Based on that, how would you conclude that is "good" to use your word?

Compared to the rest of the world, yes.

How also have you verified the 8000 were Hamas (the best case scenario)? In that case, you feel entitled to declare 12,000 civilian deaths are worth 8000 Hamas deaths, i.e. "good?"

For urban combat, yes.

Have you considered 8000 is both a bit high and many >12,000 innocents' families and friends will become terrorists? That is how the Islamo-Judeo-Christian eye for an eye code has been creating this cycle of violence that you approve of.

It's not a cycle of violence. It's Iran stirring up trouble.

Furthermore, if Israel's intent were simply to kill they would have killed a lot more. In practice they are killing approximately one person per bomb. For bombing a city lacking in civil defenses that's an incredibly low rate. It is obvious that most of their targets are not people.

Their bombing rate isn't low. It's quite high in comparison to past wars.

Compared to previous Israeli combat. Not compared to anyone else. Including us.

Note, also, that we have approximately 2,000 rockets that fell into Gaza. And we have multiple incidents that look like Hamas deliberately killing people to blame Israel. The latest I'm aware of:

New crime against humanity: Israeli army summarily executed 11 unarmed Palestinians in Gaza City on 19 December - Survivors - War on Gaza - War on Gaza

Palestinians described to Al Jazeera the grisly details of how the Israeli army summarily executed 11 unarmed Palestinian men in the Al-Remal neighbourhood in Gaza City in the early evening hours on 19 December.

english.ahram.org.eg

Really, now? Eyewitnesses don't normally have such radically different claims about what happened. And Israel has no record of troops in the area. However, Hamas does sometimes fight in IDF uniforms (part of what slowed the response to 10/7.) And note the bit of direct fire from mortars. Direct fire from artillery is a desperation measure (and likely not even possible with a mortar)--yet there's no hint that they had any reason to resort to desperate measures. These aren't witnesses, they are repeating what they were told.

IDF says it has virtual operational control. So it seems a bit far-fetched of you to claim that Hamas is able to wear IDF uniforms and steal tanks to frame IDF. As for myself, I am not familiar with the website, don't know if it is reliable, not even on my radar to consider. I suggest you should stick to more mainstream news sources.

I don't know the website, either--but it's blaming Israel. Thus I don't think it's Israeli propaganda.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Israeli airstrikes kill more than 100 as assault on Gaza widens | Gaza | The Guardian

‘Safe’ evacuation zone of Deir al-Balah is hit amid some of the deadliest fighting in the war

amp.theguardian.com

From the article:


The UN has warned that a quarter of the population is starving and that an increase in aid since 17 December amounts to a fraction of what is needed for people to survive the cold and wet winter conditions.
Aid that did arrive, the World Food Programme said, was difficult to distribute because of the fighting and lack of fuel and usable roads. In some cases desperate people have looted arriving aid vehicles.

Yeah, people are looting--because the aid is going to Hamas, not to the people.

And Israel's ability to inspect aid for contraband is nowhere near saturated. They're not the bottleneck.