Merged Gaza just launched an unprovoked attack on Israel

[Arctish]

They have been pushed right by the actions of the Palestinians.

^^^^ This ^^^^
Israel used to be a left wing nation. The voters stopped going for that because the left's land-for-peace deals kept not getting them any peace.

Which land for peace deal was enacted?

if the answer is none, then how do the Israelis know the deal would not have improved matters for them?

Which land for peace deal was offered? All the Israelis got from the left's years of talking to Arafat was offers of temporary peace for permanent land.

That is taking history and flipping it on its head.

It was the Israelis who refused to discuss permanent borders after Rabin was murdered. Rabin was denounced as a traitor to Zionism for agreeing to a plan that would have had part of Eretz Israel become a Palestinian State. When Secretary of State Clinton attempted to revive the peace talks she got a flat refusal from Israel to even discuss them. Netanyahu and Likud are pro-expansion, pro-settlement, pro-ethnic cleansing, pro-apartheid. A few years back Netanyahu openly said that all of the West Bank was part of Israel. There is no way he would honor an agreement made by a predecessor to limit Israel's territorial expansion, or propose limits himself.

Arafat and the PLO officially recognized everything on the Israel side of the 1967 borders as part of the State of Israel, that those lands would not be part of the Palestinian State, and agreed to make some land swaps so that the border could be somewhat adjusted. They explicitly and openly agreed to a land for peace deal and followed through on their end of it until the peace process stopped when the Israeli Prime Minister backing it was murdered.

I really think you should read up on the Oslo Accords and the history of its implementation.

According to Clinton the Camp David Summit failed because Arafat wouldn't budge on "right of return".

Well, if that was the sticking point, why are you saying the problem was Palestinians not agreeing to final borders?

And what exactly was Arafat proposing? For the Rights of Indigenous People to be acknowledged? For a token return of a few thousand refugees? For compensation to be offered by the State of Israel to those who were deliberately targeted in Plan Dalet? That's not controversial to anyone who isn't determined to screw over people of other races, ethnicities, and religious faiths.

Why are you making it sound like Arafat was being unreasonable?

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

Does it make sense to use the word "war" in reference to what is going on?

Israeli ground offensive targets central Gaza camps - BBC News

The Palestinian president condemns the war, as Israel says it will last "many more months".

www.bbc.com

 

[repoman]

After Israel sucks America dry, like the tick they are, which country will they latch onto next?

 

[lpetrich]

There will be only one decoration in Manger Square, Bethlehem — a nativity, destroyed : NPR

Churches in Bethlehem are observing Christmas this year without the usual celebrations, eschewing giant trees, sparkling lights and festive carols.

Christmas Eve in Bethlehem is quiet this year - no giant tree at the Church of the Nativity, no carols in Manger Square. Churches in the Holy Land officially canceled Christmas celebrations due to the war between Israel and Hamas. Joining us from Bethlehem is NPR religion correspondent Jason DeRose. Good morning.

Bethlehem resembles a ghost town on Christmas Eve, with celebrations halted due to Israel-Hamas war | PBS NewsHour

The normally bustling biblical birthplace of Jesus resembled a ghost town on Sunday, as Christmas Eve celebrations in Bethlehem were called off due to the Israel-Hamas war.

The festive lights and Christmas tree that normally decorate Manger Square were missing, as were the throngs of foreign tourists and jubilant youth marching bands that gather in the West Bank town each year to mark the holiday. Dozens of Palestinian security forces patrolled the empty square.

“This year, without the Christmas tree and without lights, there’s just darkness,” said Brother John Vinh, a Franciscan monk from Vietnam who has lived in Jerusalem for six years.

merry christmas!! : AOC - AOC took a picture of this year's Xmas Nativity image and annotated it -- it shows baby Jesus Christ wrapped in a blanket with a keffiyeh pattern on it, atop a pile of rubble, in analogy with the devastation that Israel's armed forces have caused in the Gaza Strip.

AOC's annotations:

En este nochebuena oramos por la paz y protección de los niños y inocentes en Gaza y los territorios ocupados

This nochebuena we pray for the peace and protection of the innocent in Gaza and the occupied territories

In the story of Christmas, Christ was born in modern-day Palestine under the threat of a government engaged in a massacre of innocents. He was part of a targeted population being indiscriminately killed to protect an unjust leader's power. Mary and Joseph, displaced by violence and forced to flee, became refugees in Egypt with a newborn waiting to one day return home. Thousands of years later, right-wing torces are violently occupying Bethlehem as similar stories unfold for today's Palestinians, so much so that the Christian community in Bethlehem has cancelled this year's Christmas Eve celebrations out of both safety and respect.

And yet, also today, holy children are still being born in a place of unspeakable violence - for every child born, of any identity and from any place, is sacred. Especially the children of Gaza.

The entire story of Christmas and Christ himself is about standing with the poor and powerless, the marginalized and maligned, the refugees and immigrants, the outcast and misunderstood, without exception. This high Christian holiday is about honoring the precious sanctity of family that, if the story were to unfold today, would be Jewish Palestinians.

Merry Christmas May there he peace on earth, amen

 

[lpetrich]

This year’s nativity scene... | Instagram

This year’s nativity scene at the Evangelical Lutheran Christmas Church in Bethlehem, Palestine is a powerful statement on Israel’s ongoing crimes against humanity—and how the Church sees God in the humanity of the Palestinian people in Gaza facing severe oppression. ...

AOC used that as the source image for her annotation.

EN: Tonight, ... | Instagram from the Pope:

EN:
Tonight, our hearts are in Bethlehem, where the Prince of Peace is once more rejected by the futile logic of war, by the clash of arms that even today prevents him from finding room in the world. #Christmas

Also in Spanish, Portuguese, Italian, French, German, and Polish

“Christ in the Rubble” ... | Instagram

From @redletterxians
“Red Letter Christians partnered with artist Kelly Latimore of Kelly Latimore Icons to create this new icon, “Christ in the Rubble,” which illustrates the prophetic message that if Jesus was born today, he would be born “under the rubble.”

La Natividad (The Nativity) ... | Instagram

And she gave birth to her firstborn son and wrapped him in bands of cloth, and laid him in a manger, because there was no place for them in the inn.

Luke 2:7

“If Jesus were born today, he would be born under the rubble in Gaza” - @munther_isaac Link in RLC bio! | Instagram
With some video of some more of that sermon.

"I'm so glad ... | Instagram

I’m so glad that Jesus was born in a stable. Because my soul is so much like a stable. It is poor and in unsatisfactory condition . . . Yet I believe that if Jesus can be born in a stable, maybe he can also be born in me.
~ Dorothy Day

Prince of Peace on Earth ... | Instagram

For the trampling boot of battle and the bloodied garments of war will be burned as fuel for the fire. For a child will be born for us, a son will be given to us, and the government will be on His shoulders. He will be named Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.

Isaiah 9:6

 

[repoman]

I wonder how representative this is of Northern Gaza.

 

[Harry Bosch]

After Israel sucks America dry, like the tick they are, which country will they latch onto next?

What a vile statement to make.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

After Israel sucks America dry, like the tick they are, which country will they latch onto next?

I don't think they are a tick. I think Israel has resources and is productive. That would be true, even without US backing. That said, without US arms and backup there would be less disproportional armed capacity. Not sure if that would lead to more peace or more war. I don't think you are going to get a productive discussion of your point if you are dehumanizing people. The focus is going to be on the dehumanization, not the policy outcomes.

 

[TomC]

After Israel sucks America dry, like the tick they are, which country will they latch onto next?

I don't think they are a tick. I think Israel has resources and is productive. That would be true, even without US backing. That said, without US arms and backup there would be less disproportional armed capacity. Not sure if that would lead to more peace or more war. I don't think you are going to get a productive discussion of your point if you are dehumanizing people. The focus is going to be on the dehumanization, not the policy outcomes.

Honestly, I see a huge reason for our military support for Israel being a form of corporate welfare for the U.S. military industrial complex. It's not like we mail a check. We give them a gift certificate to our weapons manufacturers.
Tom

 

[bilby]

After Israel sucks America dry, like the tick they are, which country will they latch onto next?

That's quite an achievement. You managed to fit at least four gross errors of fact into just three clauses, AND to be wildly offensive for no cause, AND to cram in at least five false inferences, in a three clause, eighteen word comment.

Literally everything about your post is either founded in error, grossly insulting, nonsensical, or a combination of those things.

It says a great deal - nothing about Israel, or America, or Gaza, but a huge amount about who you are and how you think believe and emote.

None of it casts you in a flattering light.

I am frankly astonished that anyone would say someething so perfectly calculated to destroy any shred of reputation or respect they might have had. It's a masterclass in self-destructive rhetoric.

Congratulations. I guess.

 

[Shadowy Man]

After Israel sucks America dry, like the tick they are, which country will they latch onto next?

That's quite an achievement. You managed to fit at least four gross errors of fact into just three clauses, AND to be wildly offensive for no cause, AND to cram in at least five false inferences, in a three clause, eighteen word comment.

Literally everything about your post is either founded in error, grossly insulting, nonsensical, or a combination of those things.

It says a great deal - nothing about Israel, or America, or Gaza, but a huge amount about who you are and how you think believe and emote.

None of it casts you in a flattering light.

I am frankly astonished that anyone would say someething so perfectly calculated to destroy any shred of reputation or respect they might have had. It's a masterclass in self-destructive rhetoric.

Congratulations. I guess.

One more error: he should have said “onto which country…”.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

You are so determined that Israel is bad and Hamas is doing good that you are blind to the truth.

I am in no way shape or form of the opinion that "Hamas is doing good", and the only way that anyone could have reched the conclusion, from my posting history, that I was, would be for that person to be so determined that Israel can do no wrong that he is blind to the truth.

Despite your simplistic desire for the conflict to be between good and evil, it is not. Like the vast majority of conflicts, it is between evil and evil.

I am horrified by your ability to treat it like a sports fan cheering for his team, blindly certain that only the opposing team ever cheats or commits a foul.

This is innocent people being killed. Everyone involved in the killing is in the wrong, regardless of their affiliation.

Innocent people usually are killed in war. That is not a yardstick to determine right or wrong.

The reason that 10/7 was wrong is that innocent people were killed, raped or denied their liberty.

That's ALSO the reason why the IDF's accidental killing of hostages is wrong; AND why the IDF's killing of noncombatant Gazans is wrong.

Your double standard is sickening. Your belief that there's a "good" or "right" side in the conflict is incomprehensible.

Grow up.

I'm not applying a double standard. I'm just not rejecting unpleasant reality. There is no good path. To determine the right path you must compare how bad the various options are. Peace now for an even worse future isn't a good choice.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

No, it technically says that the claim that his extended family in particular had been killed could not be confirmed and that makes sense because who is left to identify bodies when your extended family is killed. OR if the people were not his extended family but other people, then immediate confirmation of identities isn't necessarily a thing. As to whether that also could mean that LESS people had been killed, I suppose it could be a possibility, but it isn't the only possibility.

We have the named dead. That's usually correct. It's the allegations about members of his extended family that I find fishy and which was walked back.

Of course the NY Times won't admit the original was disinformation but it almost certainly was.

Jeebus Christ, dude. Listen to yourself. You just said the NY Times is fake news. Are you really willing to go that extreme to support your belief system?

No--I do not believe the NY Times is fake news. I believe they fell for fake news. The media has been doing so widely--reporting anything Hamas says as the gospel truth.

And when a family dies at once it's Israel hitting a Hamas commander.

Well, it could be. It also might not be. If, for example, you kill a random 100 Palestinians in Gaza, there is a high chance there is a member of Hamas in there. Even if you thought there was but were mistaken about the identity, you could still hit someone by chance. To look at numbers specifically and get a feel for the numbers, there are 2 million people in Gaza strip and there are 40,000 Hamas. 40,000 is 2% of 2 million. On average if you bomb 100 random people, there would be 2 Hamas members there.

Most of the bombs are targeted on things and kill nobody. When they are targeted on things Israel tries to call ahead and get the people off the X.

However, getting people off the X isn't an option when they are going after a commander. Thus those strikes tend to take out whoever is in the house--and you get things like this.

There is no way Israel can actually remove all of Hamas. Their strategy is to try to destroy Hamas things and disrupt Hamas command to make it longer until they are in a position to attack again. It happens over and over. Israel isn't going to waste firepower on random members of Hamas unless they're actually shooting. This operation is on a far bigger scale than anything they have done before but it's still the same sort of targeting.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Israel's numbers generally turn out to be pretty close to reality.

There's no way to independently verify that which should be scary when extremists are involved, but it doesn't scare you at all for some reason. When numbers can easily be close to randomness it should logically tell you something, though.

In the long run there is. Eventually combatants receive military funerals. Just long after the media has lost interest.

And in past situations Israel can compare the supposed dead with where strikes hit and with where failed rockets hit and pretty much figure out which side actually caused the death. That's probably not going to be possible this time.

Based on that, how would you conclude that is "good" to use your word?

Compared to the rest of the world, yes.

I wouldn't call close to randomness good.

Check your own math! You previously gave a value of 2% for the percent that are Hamas. 20,000 dead, if they were random that would be 400 Hamas. Reality is about 8,000.

How also have you verified the 8000 were Hamas (the best case scenario)? In that case, you feel entitled to declare 12,000 civilian deaths are worth 8000 Hamas deaths, i.e. "good?"

For urban combat, yes.

I wouldn't use the word good in consideration of 12,000 civilians dead and tens of thousands more to come.

For bad, look at what Russia has been doing in Ukraine. That's what happens when an army doesn't care about civilian casualties.

Have you considered 8000 is both a bit high and many >12,000 innocents' families and friends will become terrorists? That is how the Islamo-Judeo-Christian eye for an eye code has been creating this cycle of violence that you approve of.

It's not a cycle of violence. It's Iran stirring up trouble.

No, it's a cycle of violence. If someone killed your family and the system made it so that there was no legal recourse for justice, what is the probability you would want to respond with violence? What is the probability anyone would? Out of 12,000 innocent dead person's relatives, suppose only 1 in 10 family members might want to turn to violence to get some kind of justice. But you have multiple family members for each person who died. So, you are going to have thousands of people now who want to turn to violence, i.e. terrorists and terrorist sympathizers. So now out of thousands of people who turn to violence, someone will do something. Iran might provide some resources, but so might someone else. You even said that people will steal pipes and dig tunnels out of desperation and so Iran isn't even a necessarily logical component to the cycle of violence. Now these thousands of newly created terrorists will do something. And then Israel will respond against not only the terrorists but more innocent people...and so on. How exactly is that not an eye-for-an-eye cycle of violence?

Just because there could be a cycle doesn't mean it is due to a cycle. Organizations like Hamas are never internally funded. Somebody is pouring tons of money into perpetuating the conflict. Remove the money, the cycle dies down.

Furthermore, if Israel's intent were simply to kill they would have killed a lot more. In practice they are killing approximately one person per bomb. For bombing a city lacking in civil defenses that's an incredibly low rate. It is obvious that most of their targets are not people.

Their bombing rate isn't low. It's quite high in comparison to past wars.

Compared to previous Israeli combat. Not compared to anyone else. Including us.

Israel's military campaign in Gaza is among the most destructive in history, experts say

A data analyst says that "Gaza is now a different color from space" as a result of the bombardment and shelling.

www.pbs.org

Things.

Note, also, that we have approximately 2,000 rockets that fell into Gaza. And we have multiple incidents that look like Hamas deliberately killing people to blame Israel. The latest I'm aware of:

New crime against humanity: Israeli army summarily executed 11 unarmed Palestinians in Gaza City on 19 December - Survivors - War on Gaza - War on Gaza

Palestinians described to Al Jazeera the grisly details of how the Israeli army summarily executed 11 unarmed Palestinian men in the Al-Remal neighbourhood in Gaza City in the early evening hours on 19 December.

english.ahram.org.eg

Really, now? Eyewitnesses don't normally have such radically different claims about what happened. And Israel has no record of troops in the area. However, Hamas does sometimes fight in IDF uniforms (part of what slowed the response to 10/7.) And note the bit of direct fire from mortars. Direct fire from artillery is a desperation measure (and likely not even possible with a mortar)--yet there's no hint that they had any reason to resort to desperate measures. These aren't witnesses, they are repeating what they were told.

IDF says it has virtual operational control. So it seems a bit far-fetched of you to claim that Hamas is able to wear IDF uniforms and steal tanks to frame IDF. As for myself, I am not familiar with the website, don't know if it is reliable, not even on my radar to consider. I suggest you should stick to more mainstream news sources.

I don't know the website, either--but it's blaming Israel. Thus I don't think it's Israeli propaganda.

You aren't addressing the point. You are claiming that Hamas is dressing up in IDF uniforms and pretending to be tanks or it could be inferred outright stealing them. It's completely far-fetched. Just how extreme are you willing to go here to support your beliefs? Where are you getting your info?

They are known to have done so on 10/7.

And nothing says they stole a tank. Note how every witness gave a very different report on what happened? All we can actually infer is that people died and there was an explosion. Quite possible simply with uniforms. Why should we give the tank claim any more credibility than the direct fire mortars?

Here is a more reliable website than the one you gave:

https://www.un.org/unispal/document/unlawful-killings-in-gaza-city-ohchr-press-release/

They are saying the incidents need to be investigated.

The UN is useless.

 

[laughing dog]

Innocent people usually are killed in war. That is not a yardstick to determine right or wrong.

Since Hamas is at war with Israel, their vicious killing of civilians cannot be a yardstick to determine right or wrong?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Israel: Starvation Used as Weapon of War in Gaza | Human Rights Watch - December 18, 2023 - "Evidence Indicates Civilians Deliberately Denied Access to Food, Water"

But it's fine when Hamas does it? Besides, it's not a war crime anyway--siege is permitted in war. Where it becomes a war crime is if surrender is not permitted.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Is Israel trying to pick a fight with Iran and then pose as a victim? Like killing one's parents and then begging for mercy because one is an orphan.

Iran already picked a fight with Israel. It's just Israel is fighting an Iranian proxy rather than directly.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Investigating the assault on al-Shifa, Gaza’s largest hospital - The Washington Post - December 21, 2023 at 9:00 a.m. EST

The claims were remarkably specific — that five hospital buildings were directly involved in Hamas activities; that the buildings sat atop underground tunnels that were used by militants to direct rocket attacks and command fighters; and that the tunnels could be accessed from inside hospital wards. The assertions were backed by “concrete evidence,” Israel Defense Forces spokesman Daniel Hagari said as he laid out the case in an Oct. 27 briefing.

After storming the complex on Nov. 15, the IDF released a series of photographs and videos that it said proved its central point.

“Terrorists came here to command their operations,” Hagari said in a video published Nov. 22, guiding viewers through an underground tunnel, illuminating dark and empty rooms beneath al-Shifa.

But the evidence presented by the Israeli government falls short of showing that Hamas had been using the hospital as a command and control center, according to a Washington Post analysis of open-source visuals, satellite imagery and all of the publicly released IDF materials.

...
The Post’s analysis shows:

• The rooms connected to the tunnel network discovered by IDF troops showed no immediate evidence of military use by Hamas.
• None of the five hospital buildings identified by Hagari appeared to be connected to the tunnel network.
• There is no evidence that the tunnels could be accessed from inside hospital wards.

Attacking hospitals is a war crime, pure and simple. Or is it only a war crime when someone one doesn't like does it?

It's perfectly permissible to attack anything being used for military purposes even if that thing is a hospital.

And note the weasel words "no immediate evidence". In other words, Hamas had left. Of course they left, the position had been lost! There would be no reason for the "immediate" qualifier if there wasn't evidence of military use! Also, note "could be accessed from inside hospital wards"--implying they could be accessed from other parts of the hospital.

This article pretty much shows that Israel's claim was true.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Arafat and the PLO officially recognized everything on the Israel side of the 1967 borders as part of the State of Israel, that those lands would not be part of the Palestinian State, and agreed to make some land swaps so that the border could be somewhat adjusted. They explicitly and openly agreed to a land for peace deal and followed through on their end of it until the peace process stopped when the Israeli Prime Minister backing it was murdered.

I really think you should read up on the Oslo Accords and the history of its implementation.

I really think you should read up on the right of return.

Yes, Arafat would have accepted 67 border and right of return--because that would give him all of Israel. It's not actually a concession!

And what exactly was Arafat proposing? For the Rights of Indigenous People to be acknowledged? For a token return of a few thousand refugees? For compensation to be offered by the State of Israel to those who were deliberately targeted in Plan Dalet? That's not controversial to anyone who isn't determined to screw over people of other races, ethnicities, and religious faiths.

Why are you making it sound like Arafat was being unreasonable?

It's only in the minds of the apologists that it was a token return--reality would have been that all Palestinians would have been forced to return.

We are making it sound like Arafat was being unreasonable because he was. Your refusal to see the poison pill doesn't make it go away.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Innocent people usually are killed in war. That is not a yardstick to determine right or wrong.

Since Hamas is at war with Israel, their vicious killing of civilians cannot be a yardstick to determine right or wrong?

Israel isn't targeting civilians. Hamas did.