Merged Gaza just launched an unprovoked attack on Israel

[Derec]

Some good news from the war. IDF found and destroyed tunnels in the center of Gaza city used by the Hamas top brass.
Israel-Hamas war: IDF destroys Hamas's Palestine Square tunnels, takes over Gaza's Shejaia
The resulting explosion looks impressive.

Unfortunately, Yahya Sinwar et al are still alive though. Matter of time, hopefully.

Speaking of Hamas top brass:
Hamas Leader Who Promised to Annihilate Israel Thanks Canada, Australia for Backing UN Ceasefire Resolution

 

[Arctish]

I don't know the details exactly, but Netanyahu was born in Israel, either during the attack starting in 1948 or immediately thereafter. Why don't Gazan supporters recognize that he has very good reasons for his attitudes towards Palestinians in general?
Tom

Perhaps it's because not every Israeli born that year shares his contempt for people of other faiths, ethnicities, and political views.

Netanyahu led the faction that denounced the signing the Oslo Accords, claimed he had personally sabotaged them, and took part in the rabid rightwing rallys that denounced Yitzhak Rabin and eventually led to his murder. He is a merciless authoritarian and the protege of a Zionist terrorist, not just a run-of-the-mill bigot.

Why don't Israelis recognize that Palestinians have very good reasons for their attitudes towards Israelis in general and Benjamin Netanyahu in particular? More to the point, why don't you?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Plenty of people survive war zones. These 3 poor souls were needlessly killed by the IDF. Your response is senseless.

These three?
They were killed by Hamas and their Gazan supporters.

That is factually incorrect. The IDF admits their soldiers killed the escaped hostages. Your claim is delusional.

We are looking for root causes, not the immediate cause.

And the root cause was Hamas pulling stunts like this in order to move around to new firing positions.

That is your opinion. The “ shoot first, ask later” is a frequent MO. So is fear

It's what happens in combat. People shoot at what looks like their opponents. When their opponents look like civilians then civilians sometimes get shot.

What about all the other victims of Islamicist violence?

Why do you seem to think that Gazans are incapable of peaceful behavior? I don't think that they are, but they've been taught to be genocidally violent by Muslims. So that's what they support. Genocidal violence, even when it means their own destruction.
Tom

Your sweeping generalisations indicate your bigotry and nothing else.

After a lifetime of brainwashing what else would you expect? Blame the brainwashers. It's not bigotry in recognizing that an entire population has been brainwashed.

It is bigotry to generalize towards the entire population of Gaza based on Hamas,

It's the whole population that has been brainwashed. How could they not be after a lifetime of being fed propaganda to make them willing to be cannon fodder? I'm not blaming them for being brainwashed, just recognizing the reality of the situation.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Plenty of people survive war zones. These 3 poor souls were needlessly killed by the IDF. Your response is senseless.

These three?
They were killed by Hamas and their Gazan supporters.

That is factually incorrect. The IDF admits their soldiers killed the escaped hostages. Your claim is delusional.

We are looking for root causes, not the immediate cause.

And the root cause was Hamas pulling stunts like this in order to move around to new firing positions.

so, are you arguing that it is understandable or also justified? Because even the IDF admits it is unjustified by saying it it against their rules of engagement.

To assume that any adult male in Gaza is a terrorist threat is not and should not be the policy of the Israelis.

No, you're distorting what I'm saying.

It shouldn't have happened. The two soldiers made a mistake.

What I am saying is that Hamas set up a situation where such mistakes are prone to happening. This is exactly why Geneva requires combatants to fight in uniform.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Meanwhile...

Hamas said in a joint statement Thursday that it would not agree to release more hostages until Israel stops its attacks on Gaza.

“There is a Palestinian decision that no dialogue regarding hostages nor exchange deals will take place until after a comprehensive halt of aggression,” said the statement.

So here is the problem. Hamas launched a vile attack on civilians and captured a lot of hostages. I think the UN is right to pressure Israel on its military actions in Gaza. But the UN has to be more so on Hamas and their allies to give up the hostages. What is so worrisome is that Hamas says they'll release more hostages when the attacks stop. "More". More hostages. The UN needs to demand their release period, not "more" but rather "all". Israel agrees to stop violence... what, 25 more hostages released? Tit for tat with hostages like this is the 80s. Hamas gives up 10 here, 11 there? That has to stop!

The UN must be demanding terms and conditions for the release of all of the hostages, and stop this pussyfooting.

Hamas isn't interested in terms for their release. They're interested in dragging this out as long as possible.

Israel's position has been that if Hamas releases the hostages they'll stop shooting. It's just that Hamas wants more than for Israel to stop shooting.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

BTW: That hospital director that Israel arrested is Hamas. They indirectly admit it:



While the preview is in Arabic it comes up in English. I suspect it's a robotranslation.

 

[Shadowy Man]

Plenty of people survive war zones. These 3 poor souls were needlessly killed by the IDF. Your response is senseless.

These three?
They were killed by Hamas and their Gazan supporters.

That is factually incorrect. The IDF admits their soldiers killed the escaped hostages. Your claim is delusional.

We are looking for root causes, not the immediate cause.

And the root cause was Hamas pulling stunts like this in order to move around to new firing positions.

so, are you arguing that it is understandable or also justified? Because even the IDF admits it is unjustified by saying it it against their rules of engagement.

To assume that any adult male in Gaza is a terrorist threat is not and should not be the policy of the Israelis.

No, you're distorting what I'm saying.

It shouldn't have happened. The two soldiers made a mistake.

What I am saying is that Hamas set up a situation where such mistakes are prone to happening. This is exactly why Geneva requires combatants to fight in uniform.

I do agree with you that it shouldn't have happened, that they made a mistake, and that when fighting terrorists rather than armies this is more prone to happening. I assume then you would agree that it wasn't a justified shooting, regardless of how understandable it might have been.

 

[TomC]

That is the 2nd time you’ve flung that nasty slander out of nowhere. It is pretty itonic given your persistent vicious generalisations about Gazans.

Would you consider it a "vicious generalization" to say "Republicans mounted an insurrection in the Capitol on 1/6/21?
I doubt it.
Tom

 

[laughing dog]

Plenty of people survive war zones. These 3 poor souls were needlessly killed by the IDF. Your response is senseless.

These three?
They were killed by Hamas and their Gazan supporters.

That is factually incorrect. The IDF admits their soldiers killed the escaped hostages. Your claim is delusional.

We are looking for root causes, not the immediate cause.

And the root cause was Hamas pulling stunts like this in order to move around to new firing positions.

That is your opinion. The “ shoot first, ask later” is a frequent MO. So is fear

It's what happens in combat. People shoot at what looks like their opponents. When their opponents look like civilians then civilians sometimes get shot.

I seriously doubt you have been in combat. It is not necessarily what happens in combat. My son who fought the Taliban in Afghanistan was under strict orders to only open fire when they were under fire and they could identify the source. They were not explicitly not permitted to fire at whomever looked like the Taliban because every male looked like the Taliban and carried some sort of firearm.

What about all the other victims of Islamicist violence?

Why do you seem to think that Gazans are incapable of peaceful behavior? I don't think that they are, but they've been taught to be genocidally violent by Muslims. So that's what they support. Genocidal violence, even when it means their own destruction.
Tom

Your sweeping generalisations indicate your bigotry and nothing else.

After a lifetime of brainwashing what else would you expect? Blame the brainwashers. It's not bigotry in recognizing that an entire population has been brainwashed.

It is bigotry to generalize towards the entire population of Gaza based on Hamas,

It's the whole population that has been brainwashed. How could they not be after a lifetime of being fed propaganda to make them willing to be cannon fodder? I'm not blaming them for being brainwashed, just recognizing the reality of the situation.

No you are not recognizing the reality of the situation. You are using bigoted assumptions.

 

[laughing dog]

That is the 2nd time you’ve flung that nasty slander out of nowhere. It is pretty itonic given your persistent vicious generalisations about Gazans.

Would you consider it a "vicious generalization" to say "Republicans mounted an insurrection in the Capitol on 1/6/21?
I doubt it.
Tom

Yes, I would consider it vicious since Republicans did not. While I understand that it is hard for you to distinguish between Hamas and Gazans, but they are not the same. I realize it is difficult for you to grasp that about half the population of Gaza was not born when Hamas won their only election. I realize it is difficult for you to grasp that the lack of rebellion against an armed, ruthless and vicious government is not evidence that the population supports that gov't. But, it is not that difficult to keep that in mind when addressing the situation.

 

[TomC]

No you are not recognizing the reality of the situation. You are using bigoted assumptions.

The reality is that Hamas and their supporters, domestic and international, invested heavily in turning Gaza into a big military installation. One densely populated with human shields. Dependent on Israel for water and power, then launched a bloody attack on Israel.
That's the bottom line reality.

No bigoted assumptions, those are flat out facts.
Tom
ETA ~ That's the big crime against humanity and Gazans in particular.~

 

[TomC]

Yes, I would consider it vicious since Republicans did not.

Really? You don't think those people, from Trump and Hawley to Ashli Babbitt were republicans?
Tom

 

[laughing dog]

Yes, I would consider it vicious since Republicans did not.

Really? You don't think those people, from Trump and Hawley to Ashli Babbitt were republicans?
Tom

In my opinion, most of the insurrectionists were not Republicans. There is no evidence of which I am aware that the GOP as an institution abetted the insurrection.

The fact some insurrectionists are Republicans does not mean Republicans as a group did. The previous statement is an example of nuanced reasoning, something you should try.

 

[laughing dog]

No you are not recognizing the reality of the situation. You are using bigoted assumptions.

The reality is that Hamas and their supporters, domestic and international, invested heavily in turning Gaza into a big military installation. One densely populated with human shields. Dependent on Israel for water and power, then launched a bloody attack on Israel.
That's the bottom line reality.

No bigoted assumptions, those are flat out facts.
Tom
ETA ~ That's the big crime against humanity and Gazans in particular.~

Your “ bottom line reality” is another example of a bigoted assumption.

 

[TomC]

Your “ bottom line reality” is another example of a bigoted assumption.

In what way, specifically? I don't see the assertion that Hamas led Gazans attacked Israel on Oct 7th as an assumption, much less bigoted.
Tom

 

[Arctish]

Your “ bottom line reality” is another example of a bigoted assumption.

In what way, specifically? I don't see the assertion that Hamas led Gazans attacked Israel on Oct 7th as an assumption, much less bigoted.
Tom

"Hamas led Gazans" attacked Israel?

I thought the attackers were actual Hamas terrorists. If you have information indicating otherwise please link to it.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

Really? You don't think those people, from Trump and Hawley to Ashli Babbitt were republicans?
Tom

Though conservative, Ashli Babbit was a registered Libertarian. It's plausible there were many right-wing 3rd partiers there besides many Republicans. That's because a lot of militia groups in the US have membership in right-wing parties. Words like Constitution, Liberty, Patriot come to mind as possible party names for some of those people. It's also known there were Republicans there, but don't assume everyone was Republican.

 

[laughing dog]

Your “ bottom line reality” is another example of a bigoted assumption.

In what way, specifically? I don't see the assertion that Hamas led Gazans attacked Israel on Oct 7th as an assumption, much less bigoted.
Tom

Bless your heart, of course you don’t.

Outside of Arctish’s astute point, your “ bottom line reality” description says it all.

 

[TomC]

Your “ bottom line reality” is another example of a bigoted assumption.

In what way, specifically? I don't see the assertion that Hamas led Gazans attacked Israel on Oct 7th as an assumption, much less bigoted.
Tom

"Hamas led Gazans" attacked Israel?

I thought the attackers were actual Hamas terrorists. If you have information indicating otherwise please link to it.

If Gazans are led by Hamas. And Hamas is composed of Gazans. Then the people who attacked Israel were Hamas led Gazans. The pedantic semantic arguments get tiresome.
They may have also been part of some organized military group.
That I don't know about, and I sincerely doubt that you do either. I'm not sure such exists. Gazans and their leadership are notoriously "irregular". Like pushing their 20th year of a 4 year term.
Tom

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

I thought the attackers were actual Hamas terrorists. If you have information indicating otherwise please link to it.

Not trying to be argumentative...I think we should note that there has been a giant focus on Hamas in this thread, but there are also other players. A few surrounding countries have non-Hamas terrorist groups doing things like shooting and launching missiles once in a while. But, even more so, there was also Islamic Jihad that took part along with Hamas in kidnapping Israelis. We've really only mentioned Hamas and often the news is only talking about Hamas, like when discussing negotiations and ceasefires but again, there is also Islamic Jihad.

Most recently Islamic Jihad and Hamas are in the news:

Israel-Gaza: Israel says it has arrested hundreds of Hamas and Islamic Jihad members

The arrests come as Israel hints it wants to expand its campaign, forcing more civilians out of their homes.

www.bbc.com

If Gazans are led by Hamas.

Not every activity of Gazans are led by Hamas and not all Gazans are led by Hamas. For example, when Gazans have dinner, they are not being led to eat dinner by Hamas. When the guy at the hospital was saying how much he blamed Hamas for what was happening he wasn't being led by Hamas to say that. Also, for example, Christians in Gaza are not being led by Hamas generally speaking in most activities. Those persons are not too different than more secular or other less extreme factions inside Gaza who think Hamas is too extreme. There's a continuum of extremist levels and a spectrum of different factions. So, to review, not all Gazans' activities are led by Hamas and not all Gazans are generally led by Hamas.

And Hamas is composed of Gazans.

I think this is fair to say that Hamas is composed of Palestinians as Hamas is primarily in Gaza but also has presence in the West Bank.

Then the people who attacked Israel were Hamas led Gazans.

The people who attacked were composed of Islamic Jihad and Hamas. It is true that Hamas probably took a front seat. There could have been other persons not originally from Gaza but launching from Gaza who took part in the acts...such as a smattering from West Bank, surrounding Muslim majority countries...in the same way that Islamic Jihad has bigger membership and in the same way that a few Americans were hostages and other countries as well who were in Israel the time.

The pedantic semantic arguments get tiresome.

What is tiresome is that you are deliberately trying to broadbrush the people of Gaza. You know you are not supposed to do it and so you are trying to sneak it in on technicalities. When someone shows you, "hey look there are even more technicalities," then you bitch about it because your technicalities were not as good. So, just admit it and move on.