Merged Gaza just launched an unprovoked attack on Israel

[ZiprHead]

Where is this "praise" you speak of?

The far-leftist "The Nation" writing approvingly about a Republican because they both oppose Israel.

And where is the hate?

Not wanting to help a friend and ally defend itself from the war of aggression by Islamic terrorists funded and armed by the theocratic regime in Tehran.

If anyone wants people to believe Massie hates Israel, they're going to have to show us more than his lack of support for sending billions of dollars of US taxpayer money to fund the IDF.

Question: do you support sending billions to Ukraine to defend itself against Russian aggression? Then why would you oppose sending billions to Israel to defend itself from aggression by proxies of the Tehran regime?

Israel is a strong independent rich nation with a good economy and a crap ton of weapons to use against a few thousand hamas fighters.

Ukraine is a fledgling democracy and they are not rich nor awash in weapons. They are under direct attack from a large nation with huge stockpiles of weapons and a seemingly inexhaustible supply of manpower.

The two are far from comparable.

 

[Derec]

Or, to put it more accurately, not wanting to tax American citizens in order to fund another nation's government.

US aids a lot of governments. Why is military aid to, say, Egypt ok, but military aid to Israel is not?

Old-school Libertarians are isolationist. They begrudgingly support limited taxes anhttps://www.unrwa.org/who-we-ared tariffs to fund our military, but insist that money is for the defense of the United States only.

Massey is not just a spending hawk, and much less a libertarian.
Here he is tweeting (or xing) a meme that uses "Zionism" as a pejorative:

I support sending money and munitions to Ukraine to help it defend itself. I also support sending money and munitions to Israel for the same reason. I do not support sending money they can then use to carry out ethnic cleansing

Israel is not engaging in "ethnic cleansing" in Gaza. It is defending itself from a brutal attack by the Hamas and other terrorists on 10/7.

and seize land and resources that a different community of people have lived on and utilized for thousands of years,

Arabs have not been in the Land of Israel for 1000s of years. That's preposterous. 2k years ago the land was the Hasmonean Kingdom of Israel, the last natively governed polity in the land until 1948 and the reestablishment of Israel as a state. "Palestine" is a colonial term for the land, and it is telling that the Arabs are using it instead of some native name (especially since Arabic does not even have a "p"). It is also telling they are using the corruption of the colonial name "Neapolis" for what the city with the native name Shechem. Many "Palestinians" are relatively recent immigrants, a fact tacitly acknowledged even by UNRWA, since they require only a two year residency between 1946-1948 for somebody (and all their descendens) to be considered a "Palestinian refugee" in perpetuity.

UNRWA is unique in terms of its long-standing commitment to one group of refugees. It has contributed to the welfare and human development of four generations of Palestine refugees, defined as “persons whose normal place of residence was Palestine during the period 1 June 1946 to 15 May 1948, and who lost both home and means of livelihood as a result of the 1948 War.” The descendants of Palestine refugee males, including legally adopted children, are also eligible for registration.

[emphasis added]

or munitions which they then use to murder and terrorize civilians. If it were up to me, the money and military aid would come with explicit and stringently enforced strings attached. No using it for ethnic cleansing, colonizing, or human rights violations. If a country wants to do that shit, it can pay for its own military forces itself. Don't involve America.

How do you define this? Do you, for example, think that an operation to rescue hostages illegally held in a residential area is ok? Or that it's ok to target Hamas and Islamic Jihad terrorists illegally operating out of UNRWA schools and warehouses?
Or would you give these terrorists absolute immunity as long as they make sure they stay in civilian areas?

I am in favor of the Two State solution.

Me too. Eventually. But the conduct of Palestinians since the Camp David talks broke down in 2000 shows that they are not ready for statehood. And the 10/7 massacre underlined that with a thick Sharpie!

I would vote to send US taxpayer money to help create and sustain it. Massey might support some initial funding but being an old-school Libertarian, he would not keep funding it indefinitely. That would not mean he hates it.

Why do you keep calling him a "Libertarian"? He is not even a small-l libertarian.

 

[Derec]

Israel is a strong independent rich nation with a good economy and a crap ton of weapons to use against a few thousand hamas fighters.

A few 10s of thousand, you mean? Add a few 10s of thousands of Hezbollah fighters, as well as other Tehran proxies, all well funded and armed.

Ukraine is a fledgling democracy and they are not rich nor awash in weapons. They are under direct attack from a large nation with huge stockpiles of weapons and a seemingly inexhaustible supply of manpower.
The two are far from comparable.

They are comparable, albeit not identical. The advantages and disadvantages cancel each other out. Israel is a richer country, but Ukraine has a far bigger population and land mass they can use to retreat and regroup. Israel is smaller is area than New Jersey, for fuck's sake! Ukraine is under direct attack, Israel under indirect, but the size difference between the aggressor and victim is much bigger with Iran and Israel.

 

[Derec]

And the sham "unity government" is finally unraveling. Netanyahu and his Likud Party were always running the show, but they no longer have the Benny Gantz moderates to kick around.

Centrist Benny Gantz is quitting Israel’s war Cabinet, citing frustrations with Netanyahu​

He obviously wants to be the prime minister instead of the prime minister. Being in the opposition will allow him to define his own position better.

 

[Arctish]

Or, to put it more accurately, not wanting to tax American citizens in order to fund another nation's government.

US aids a lot of governments. Why is military aid to, say, Egypt ok, but military aid to Israel is not?

Show me Massey's voting record and/or statements on aid to Egypt and we'll talk about it.

I think you don't know his record and don't care, either. I think you were just repeating a smear against a member of Congress who didn't rubber stamp the latest bill to support Israel.

Old-school Libertarians are isolationist. They begrudgingly support limited taxes anhttps://www.unrwa.org/who-we-ared tariffs to fund our military, but insist that money is for the defense of the United States only.

Massey is not just a spending hawk, and much less a libertarian.
Here he is tweeting (or xing) a meme that uses "Zionist" as a pejorative:

It says "Zionism", not "Zionist". And where is the pejorative usage? The meme is about Congress being openly supportive of Zionism, and not supportive of American patriotism.

I support sending money and munitions to Ukraine to help it defend itself. I also support sending money and munitions to Israel for the same reason. I do not support sending money they can then use to carry out ethnic cleansing

Israel is not engaging in "ethnic cleansing" in Gaza. It is defending itself from a brutal attack by the Hamas and other terrorists on 10/7.

and seize land and resources that a different community of people have lived on and utilized for thousands of years,

Arabs have not been in the Land of Israel for 1000s of years. That's preposterous. 2k years ago the land was the Hasmonean Kingdom of Israel, the last natively governed polity in the land until 1948 and the reestablishment of Israel as a state. "Palestine" is a colonial term for the land, and it is telling that the Arabs are using it instead of some native name (especially since Arabic does not even have a "p"). It is also telling they are using the corruption of the colonial name "Neapolis" for what the city with the native name Shechem. Many "Palestinians" are relatively recent immigrants, a fact tacitly acknowledged even by UNRWA, since they require only a two year residency between 1946-1948 for somebody (and all their descendens) to be considered a "Palestinian refugee" in perpetuity.

Nice list of talking points that ignore the fact the indigenous peoples of Palestine have been living in the area between the Jordan River Valley and the Mediterranean Sea for thousands of years, and that their ancestral claim to Palestine is not a function of their religious faith.

You know the recent immigrants are mostly European Jews and Jews from other parts of the Middle East. It's not convenient for you to admit it when you want to say the Palestinians are "relatively recent immigrants" and that means they have no right to live in Palestine, but you do know it.

UNRWA is unique in terms of its long-standing commitment to one group of refugees. It has contributed to the welfare and human development of four generations of Palestine refugees, defined as “persons whose normal place of residence was Palestine during the period 1 June 1946 to 15 May 1948, and who lost both home and means of livelihood as a result of the 1948 War.” The descendants of Palestine refugee males, including legally adopted children, are also eligible for registration.

[emphasis added]

or munitions which they then use to murder and terrorize civilians. If it were up to me, the money and military aid would come with explicit and stringently enforced strings attached. No using it for ethnic cleansing, colonizing, or human rights violations. If a country wants to do that shit, it can pay for its own military forces itself. Don't involve America.

How do you define this? Do you, for example, think that an operation to rescue hostages illegally held in a residential area is ok? Or that it's ok to target Hamas and Islamic Jihad terrorists illegally operating out of UNRWA schools and warehouses?
Or would you give these terrorists absolute immunity as long as they make sure they stay in civilian areas?

Like this.

And if this method proves insufficient to ensure American taxpayer money isn't being used in a way that Americans don't want it to be used, then a revised version that closes whatever loopholes were being exploited.

I am in favor of the Two State solution.

Me too. Eventually. But the conduct of Palestinians since the Camp David talks broke down in 2000 shows that they are not ready for statehood. And the 10/7 massacre underlined that with a thick Sharpie!

I would vote to send US taxpayer money to help create and sustain it. Massey might support some initial funding but being an old-school Libertarian, he would not keep funding it indefinitely. That would not mean he hates it.

Why do you keep calling him a "Libertarian"? He is not even a small-l libertarian.

Because he votes like a Libertarian and is endorsed by Libertarian organizations like Young Americans for Liberty. He wants to abolish the EPA and the Department of Education, he consistently votes to scale back the use of the U.S. military abroad, and is on record saying he opposes all foreign aid out of concern about the national debt. There are many, many instances of him championing Libertarian causes and sponsoring bills that push the Libertarian agenda. More on his political positions can be found here.

 

[ZiprHead]

Israel is a strong independent rich nation with a good economy and a crap ton of weapons to use against a few thousand hamas fighters.

A few 10s of thousand, you mean? Add a few 10s of thousands of Hezbollah fighters, as well as other Tehran proxies, all well funded and armed.

"MEMBERS
Between 20,000 and 25,000"

National Counterterrorism Center | FTOs

Contains many features across the full range of issues pertaining to international terrorism: terrorist groups, wanted terrorists, and technical pages on various threat-related topics

www.dni.gov

There are estimated to be 360,000 Russian troops in Ukraine.

Ukraine is a fledgling democracy and they are not rich nor awash in weapons. They are under direct attack from a large nation with huge stockpiles of weapons and a seemingly inexhaustible supply of manpower.
The two are far from comparable.

They are comparable, albeit not identical. The advantages and disadvantages cancel each other out. Israel is a richer country, but Ukraine has a far bigger population and land mass they can use to retreat and regroup. Israel is smaller is area than New Jersey, for fuck's sake! Ukraine is under direct attack, Israel under indirect, but the size difference between the aggressor and victim is much bigger with Iran and Israel.

Have you actually seen a map of Israel because you speak as if you haven't?

The rest of your post is just ridiculous. Hamas has small arms and home made dumb rockets. Russia has tanks, artillery, radar stations, fighter jets, attack helicopters, long range guided missiles. You should be ashamed for posting that idiotic blather.

 

[DrZoidberg]

I find the stance of USA and the UN baffling. Whatever happened to, don’t negotiate with terrorists?

If Hammas uses refugee camps to shoot rockets into Israel from, then why is anyone calling for ceasefire? Its so strange. Obviously Hammas can't be allowed to exist as an organisation.

Why doesn't the UN and USA instead put up the pressure on Hammas to release the hostages?

This whole conflict is all about victim blaming

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

US drops UNSC resolution’s rejection of IDF buffer zone in Gaza ahead of Monday vote

* * *

www.timesofisrael.com

This seems decent.

 

[Shadowy Man]

Why doesn't the UN and USA instead put up the pressure on Hammas to release the hostages?

If the bombing and destruction of Gaza so far hasn’t been enough what kind of pressure do you suppose would?

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

U.N. Security Council passes Gaza cease-fire proposal drafted by the U.S.

China made no move to block the deal and Russia abstained, allowing the proposal to pass.

www.nbcnews.com

So now it has passed.

 

[laughing dog]

Israel is a strong independent rich nation with a good economy and a crap ton of weapons to use against a few thousand hamas fighters.

A few 10s of thousand, you mean? Add a few 10s of thousands of Hezbollah fighters, as well as other Tehran proxies, all well funded and armed.

Ukraine is a fledgling democracy and they are not rich nor awash in weapons. They are under direct attack from a large nation with huge stockpiles of weapons and a seemingly inexhaustible supply of manpower.
The two are far from comparable.

They are comparable, albeit not identical. The advantages and disadvantages cancel each other out. Israel is a richer country, but Ukraine has a far bigger population and land mass they can use to retreat and regroup. Israel is smaller is area than New Jersey, for fuck's sake! Ukraine is under direct attack, Israel under indirect, but the size difference between the aggressor and victim is much bigger with Iran and Israel.

The differences between Ukraine's situation and Israel’s is sufficiently different to make your comparison truly unconvincing . Ukraine faces an immediate existential threat by a vastly superior armed country with vastly superior resources. Hamas poses no immediate existential threat from a vastly smaller terrorist organization.

 

[laughing dog]

I find the stance of USA and the UN baffling. Whatever happened to, don’t negotiate with terrorists?

If Hammas uses refugee camps to shoot rockets into Israel from, then why is anyone calling for ceasefire? Its so strange. Obviously Hammas can't be allowed to exist as an organisation.

Why doesn't the UN and USA instead put up the pressure on Hammas to release the hostages?

This whole conflict is all about victim blaming

Let me understand - you are victim blaming about victim blaming?

 

[Tigers!]

The differences between Ukraine's situation and Israel’s is sufficiently different to make your comparison truly unconvincing . Ukraine faces an immediate existential threat by a vastly superior armed country with vastly superior resources. Hamas poses no immediate existential threat from a vastly smaller terrorist organization.

How long does the word "immediate" (emboldened for your convenience) last? The Nazis were no existential threat to the Jews in, say 1928, but within a decade Germany had the Kristallnacht.
But it is good to note that you acknowledge that Hamas is an existential threat to Israel and Jews. What concrete, practical steps do you suggest to remove Hamas as an existential threat to Jews?

 

[laughing dog]

The differences between Ukraine's situation and Israel’s is sufficiently different to make your comparison truly unconvincing . Ukraine faces an immediate existential threat by a vastly superior armed country with vastly superior resources. Hamas poses no immediate existential threat from a vastly smaller terrorist organization.

How long does the word "immediate" (emboldened for your convenience) last? The Nazis were no existential threat to the Jews in, say 1928, but within a decade Germany had the Kristallnacht.

Can you distinguish between the resources of a developed country and those of terrorists in a shithole?

But it is good to note that you acknowledge that Hamas is an existential threat to Israel and Jews. What concrete, practical steps do you suggest to remove Hamas as an existential threat to Jews?

Not possible. At best reduce the threat.

 

[Tigers!]

The differences between Ukraine's situation and Israel’s is sufficiently different to make your comparison truly unconvincing . Ukraine faces an immediate existential threat by a vastly superior armed country with vastly superior resources. Hamas poses no immediate existential threat from a vastly smaller terrorist organization.

How long does the word "immediate" (emboldened for your convenience) last? The Nazis were no existential threat to the Jews in, say 1928, but within a decade Germany had the Kristallnacht.

Can you distinguish between the resources of a developed country and those of terrorists in a shithole?

Neither of us know what will be happening in 5 years time. You assume that the status quo now (11/06/2024) will continue into the future. I do not do so.

But it is good to note that you acknowledge that Hamas is an existential threat to Israel and Jews. What concrete, practical steps do you suggest to remove Hamas as an existential threat to Jews?

Not possible. At best reduce the threat.

So you accept Hamas then? You may not like them but you will tolerate them?

What is your opinion is defined as a reduction in Hamas' threat?

 

[laughing dog]

The differences between Ukraine's situation and Israel’s is sufficiently different to make your comparison truly unconvincing . Ukraine faces an immediate existential threat by a vastly superior armed country with vastly superior resources. Hamas poses no immediate existential threat from a vastly smaller terrorist organization.

How long does the word "immediate" (emboldened for your convenience) last? The Nazis were no existential threat to the Jews in, say 1928, but within a decade Germany had the Kristallnacht.

Can you distinguish between the resources of a developed country and those of terrorists in a shithole?

Neither of us know what will be happening in 5 years time. You assume that the status quo now (11/06/2024) will continue into the future. I do not do so.

I make no such assumption. I don’t expect pigs to fly in 5 years nor do I expect Hamas to have the resources to present a realistic existential threat to Israel in 5 years. It is insane to expect either possibility.

But it is good to note that you acknowledge that Hamas is an existential threat to Israel and Jews. What concrete, practical steps do you suggest to remove Hamas as an existential threat to Jews?

Not possible. At best reduce the threat.

So you accept Hamas then? You may not like them but you will tolerate them?

What is your opinion is defined as a reduction in Hamas' threat?

I acknowledge that it is impossible to remove Islamic terrorists. That is neither acceptance nor tolerance of Hamas.

I do not understand your last question as written.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Why doesn't the UN and USA instead put up the pressure on Hammas to release the hostages?

If the bombing and destruction of Gaza so far hasn’t been enough what kind of pressure do you suppose would?

That's because IDF has to move slowly to minimise Palestinian civilian casualties. Hammas is making it as hard as possible for them.

I think the best outcome for everyone is if Israel just keep going until they are done. Hammas is also bad for the Palestinians

 

[Derec]

Show me Massey's voting record and/or statements on aid to Egypt and we'll talk about it.

Forget voting record, is he making snide Drake memes about Egypt like he is about Israel?

I think you don't know his record and don't care, either. I think you were just repeating a smear against a member of Congress who didn't rubber stamp the latest bill to support Israel.

I was just responding to The Nation piece. They found affinity with him over their shared opposition to Israel.

It says "Zionism", not "Zionist".

I know. I had fixed that typo before you finished your reply. I guess not before you started it.

And where is the pejorative usage? The meme is about Congress being openly supportive of Zionism, and not supportive of American patriotism.

While "Zionism" is just the belief that Israel should exist as the homeland for Jewish people, it is often used by antisemites who desire a figleaf.
For example these creeps:

Massey himself is making a contrast between "American patriotism" and "Zionism" as if they were antithetical to each other.
Even Chuck Schumer, not a friend of the current Israeli government, called Massie out on the meme.
Schumer demands Massie take down 'antisemitic' meme

Nice list of talking points that ignore the fact the indigenous peoples of Palestine have been living in the area between the Jordan River Valley and the Mediterranean Sea for thousands of years, and that their ancestral claim to Palestine is not a function of their religious faith.

Again, if they were "indigenous people of Palestine", why are they using a Roman colonial term for it? A term that ultimately comes from Philistines, Sea Peoples who invaded the area of southern coastal plain during the Bronze Age collapse and that have no connection with Arabs that call themselves "Palestinian" these days.
"Palestinian" as an ethnic, rather than merely geographic, term is of recent origin.

You know the recent immigrants are mostly European Jews and Jews from other parts of the Middle East.

And many now considered Palestinian Arabs also immigrated from Egypt or Yemen or elsewhere. That's why UNRWA only required a two year residency, not "thousands of years" you are claiming.

Like this.

So you want American money to be used to fund the theocrats in Tehran rather than give weapons to Israel so they can defend themselves?
Should we be paying off Putin too instead of arming Ukraine? They are holding some of US citizens in prison too ...
Note also that money is fungible. Even if they do use the $6G Biden gave them in September for "humanitarian" purposes, that frees other $6G to fund terrorism.
Obama made a mistake with the Iran deal in 2015. It gave the regime sanction relief for very little in concessions, and that emboldened them.

Because he votes like a Libertarian and is endorsed by Libertarian organizations like Young Americans for Liberty. He wants to abolish the EPA and the Department of Education,

So does Rick Perry.

Just because he doesn't like spending doesn't mean he is a libertarian.

he consistently votes to scale back the use of the U.S. military abroad, and is on record saying he opposes all foreign aid out of concern about the national debt. There are many, many instances of him championing Libertarian causes and sponsoring bills that push the Libertarian agenda. More on his political positions can be found here.

He is anti-abortion and anti-gay marriage, not very libertarian. Surprisingly, he seems to be somewhat pro-marijuana, so that's something in your column.

 

[Arctish]

Why doesn't the UN and USA instead put up the pressure on Hammas to release the hostages?

If the bombing and destruction of Gaza so far hasn’t been enough what kind of pressure do you suppose would?

That's because IDF has to move slowly to minimise Palestinian civilian casualties. Hammas is making it as hard as possible for them.

You didn't answer the question.

You asked why the UN and the US don't increase the pressure on Hamas to release the hostages. If the bombing and destruction of Gaza so far hasn't been enough pressure, what kind of pressure do you suggest?

I think the best outcome for everyone is if Israel just keep going until they are done. Hammas is also bad for the Palestinians

You think Israel should just keep going until they are done what? Destroying all of Gaza? Killing all the adults who might be members of Hamas, or related to members of Hamas, or conceivably maybe-might be Hamas sympathizers? Killing the kids as they reach adolescence to prevent Hamas from recruiting them? Killing them now while it's still easily done?

What benchmark are you proposing for determining when Israel should stop?

 

[Shadowy Man]

Why doesn't the UN and USA instead put up the pressure on Hammas to release the hostages?

If the bombing and destruction of Gaza so far hasn’t been enough what kind of pressure do you suppose would?

That's because IDF has to move slowly to minimise Palestinian civilian casualties. Hammas is making it as hard as possible for them.

I think the best outcome for everyone is if Israel just keep going until they are done. Hammas is also bad for the Palestinians

So, more civilian casualties may be the best way to bring more pressure on Hamas to release the hostages?