Merged Gaza just launched an unprovoked attack on Israel

[Loren Pechtel]

Anyway. I am done talking with you. You have shown your colours. I don't think you have morals or care about human lives. Nor basic human dignity

I think you're wrong on this. I do think she cares--it's just she wants a fantasy solution that doesn't exist.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Looks like Israel and Hamas are close to an agreement.

It looks like a rotten deal.
Gaza ceasefire-hostage deal on brink of finalization, as reports spell out details
In the first phase, only 33 hostages would be released by Hamas, but at the price of ~1,000 Palestinian terrorists, including those serving life sentences.

It said that among the first phase’s 33 hostages would be five female IDF soldiers, each of whom would be released in exchange for 50 Palestinian security prisoners, including 30 convicted terrorists who are serving life sentences.

That is 150 terrorists serving life sentences. Way too steep a price.

The linked article says none of the terrorists who participated in the October 7 attack will be released and that none of the "murder" terrorists, aka the ones convicted of direct participation in violent crimes, will be released to the West Bank, although some appear to be headed to either Gaza or exile. The other prisoners slated to be released include some serving sentences of 15 years or more and a shit ton of people who were never charged with a crime, much less convicted of one.

We have plenty of evidence of their guilt: Hamas wants them released. Hamas isn't interested in criminals, only in terrorists. Therefore they are terrorists.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

You still don't get it--Gaza is a symptom, not the problem. The problem is the terror money. You keep trying to treat the symptom and pretend that will fix the problem.

How in the heck is there going to be terror money if a deal with the Emirates, Saudi Arabia, and the west funding the rebuilding of Gaza. You think any of them will tolerate their money to rebuild structures that'll be pounded back down by Israel in retaliation for the latest Iranian funded assault on Israel? Having the Arabs help fund, in large part, the reconstruction would be enough of a self-reinforcing block to terror funding in Gaza.

Your problem is, you aren't good at solving real problems and using diplomacy to entrap those into positions they wouldn't have otherwise taken.

Summer child!

Europe has already been funding stuff whose purpose is to be destroyed for PR purposes. They do things like build "schools" on land they don't own and with no local need and basically just a shell.

And Iran would be happy to pound to rubble anything that Saudi Arabia funded.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

In other words, the only answer is the destruction of Israel and the genocide of the Jews?

Or they could just leave and give the country back to the people they stole it from.

Where will the Jews go once they have left the ME? Can they stay at your place?

They should go back where they came from. MAGA!

You have to admit that no one asked the Palestinians already living there if it was okay to give their country to foreigners.

You think it's a joke that Trump wants to take over Canada, Greenland, etc. You know it's absurd. But that was exactly what was done to the Palestinians that were already living there, including Jews and Christians.

The majority of the Jews there came from Arab lands. So you're going to send them to genocide.

Please stop with that bigoted nonsense. Yes there are places where it would be dangerous, but there are plenty of Arabic and Muslim countries where it isn't.

And that's supposed to be relevant how?

"Go home" doesn't mean to any Muslim land, it means to the country they came from. They're in Israel because they were driven out, why in the world do you think it would be safe for them to return?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Israel has left countless without a place to go home to. So while Israel did an adequate job at not actively targeting Hamas with no thought of civilians, there is the issue of there is less and less of Gaza for Palestinians to call home.

Yes. Lots and lots of homes were destroyed. As Hamas intended.

Yes, this is more the fault of Hamas, but should there be no consideration for the Palestinians left homeless or shall we be resigned to accept that tens of thousands, hundreds or thousands of Gazans will live in refugee camps for several years? THe reconstruction of Gaza is an opportunity to minimize Hamas via a multi-lateral agreement among Iran, Saudi Arabia, the emirates, and the West, but no one seems to give a damn about the reconstruction (and there appears no one with the diplomatic Sauvé faire to make it happen). LP might disagree, but the longer Gaza is allowed to rot, the worse things will be for Israel.

You still don't get it--Gaza is a symptom, not the problem. The problem is the terror money. You keep trying to treat the symptom and pretend that will fix the problem.

You approve of Israel treating the symptom but not the problem. Why the double standard?

When you can't treat the problem (the terror money from Iran) treating the symptom at least improves the situation. We don't think the war will fix the problem, it's just about limiting the damage.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

[

In other words, the only answer is the destruction of Israel and the genocide of the Jews?

Or they could just leave and give the country back to the people they stole it from.

So where will all you Yanks go when you return the stolen lands back to the original inhabitants?
Whence would you return Zipr?

Same place you Aussies go.

My ancestry is English, Scottish, German and, oh yes, Australian. I was born here. I have as much right to be where I am as anyone else born here. We can discuss immigrants in another thread.

Just like you yanks.

Is it possible for you to not switch the goal posts? If Australia is returned back to the original inhabitants, whence would you return Tigers!? You expected Ziprhead to answer. Why don’t you live up to your expectations and answer?

Misdirection, again.

Tigers! isn't arguing for that position, he's reframing it to make it obvious that it's not an answer.

Please stop with your slanderous accusdations. I showed that his reframing it is not an answer either.

Of course it's not an answer! That's the whole point. Just go back where you came from is not an answer. Not for the Aussies, not for the Jews, not for much of anybody.

 

[laughing dog]

In other words, the only answer is the destruction of Israel and the genocide of the Jews?

Or they could just leave and give the country back to the people they stole it from.

Where will the Jews go once they have left the ME? Can they stay at your place?

They should go back where they came from. MAGA!

You have to admit that no one asked the Palestinians already living there if it was okay to give their country to foreigners.

You think it's a joke that Trump wants to take over Canada, Greenland, etc. You know it's absurd. But that was exactly what was done to the Palestinians that were already living there, including Jews and Christians.

The majority of the Jews there came from Arab lands. So you're going to send them to genocide.

Please stop with that bigoted nonsense. Yes there are places where it would be dangerous, but there are plenty of Arabic and Muslim countries where it isn't.

And that's supposed to be relevant how?

It shows your claim is nonsense

"Go home" doesn't mean to any Muslim land, it means to the country they came from. They're in Israel because they were driven out, why in the world do you think it would be safe for them to return?

Verify your claim that the only basis for Jews from Arabic lands in Isreal is that they were driven out.

 

[laughing dog]

Israel has left countless without a place to go home to. So while Israel did an adequate job at not actively targeting Hamas with no thought of civilians, there is the issue of there is less and less of Gaza for Palestinians to call home.

Yes. Lots and lots of homes were destroyed. As Hamas intended.

Yes, this is more the fault of Hamas, but should there be no consideration for the Palestinians left homeless or shall we be resigned to accept that tens of thousands, hundreds or thousands of Gazans will live in refugee camps for several years? THe reconstruction of Gaza is an opportunity to minimize Hamas via a multi-lateral agreement among Iran, Saudi Arabia, the emirates, and the West, but no one seems to give a damn about the reconstruction (and there appears no one with the diplomatic Sauvé faire to make it happen). LP might disagree, but the longer Gaza is allowed to rot, the worse things will be for Israel.

You still don't get it--Gaza is a symptom, not the problem. The problem is the terror money. You keep trying to treat the symptom and pretend that will fix the problem.

You approve of Israel treating the symptom but not the problem. Why the double standard?

When you can't treat the problem (the terror money from Iran) treating the symptom at least improves the situation. We don't think the war will fix the problem, it's just about limiting the damage.

As does JH and his proposed treatment of the problem. It appears the basis of that particular objection is a double standard.

 

[laughing dog]

[

In other words, the only answer is the destruction of Israel and the genocide of the Jews?

Or they could just leave and give the country back to the people they stole it from.

So where will all you Yanks go when you return the stolen lands back to the original inhabitants?
Whence would you return Zipr?

Same place you Aussies go.

My ancestry is English, Scottish, German and, oh yes, Australian. I was born here. I have as much right to be where I am as anyone else born here. We can discuss immigrants in another thread.

Just like you yanks.

Is it possible for you to not switch the goal posts? If Australia is returned back to the original inhabitants, whence would you return Tigers!? You expected Ziprhead to answer. Why don’t you live up to your expectations and answer?

Misdirection, again.

Tigers! isn't arguing for that position, he's reframing it to make it obvious that it's not an answer.

Please stop with your slanderous accusdations. I showed that his reframing it is not an answer either.

Of course it's not an answer! That's the whole point. Just go back where you came from is not an answer. Not for the Aussies, not for the Jews, not for much of anybody.

So even though you agree with me, you made a slanderous accusation.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

The main problem is that Hamas have made it as hard as possible for Israel to avoid hitting civilians. With that in mind Israel is doing an excellent job. It could have been a lot worse for the Palestinians. A lot worse

Exactly. The propaganda keeps focusing on how many "died" (quotes as there are a lot of problem with the data), completely ignoring how that compares to expectations.

What makes their propaganda differant than your propaganda?

You've been asked this before but all we get are crickets. What are you comparing the expectations to? Where are the numbers you keep claiming is Israel is doing better than?

You shot yourself in the foot before on this by presenting an argument that actually admitted what I was saying. But since that doesn't seem to be enough:

Urban Warfare | Center for Civilians in Conflict

civiliansinconflict.org

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Then I don't see why you are arguing against me? They chose a king and that king attacked Israel and now it's shit for them. Actions and consequences. Israel did not deserve this. You keep ignoring just how extreme the 7/10 attack was. It was barbaric to a degree we haven't seen in generations.

Apparently you have not seen videos of what cartels do to captured members of other cartels or anyone that crosses them. Barbarism has never left our world culture the way you seem to think it has.

But the cartel violence is against those who cross them, it is not directed at the population at large.

Irrelevant to my point.

And the cartels do prey on the population at large. Forcing children to join their gang where refusal will be death of the family is not uncommon. I suspect HAMAS does the same.

I think you're mixing up the gangs (where in some areas that definitely does happen--plenty of the applications for refugee status stem from such situations) with the cartels. The cartels want a live and let live relationship with the locals, they are in the business of making money from exports, not from the locals.

(And you're not quite right about the Hamas part--it's not that they'll kill you for not being part of Hamas, but that Hamas ensures you have no other options but to do what they want.)

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Again and again the world tells Israel to play nice. And pretty soon they're hit again by some branch of the Islamists.

I've seen this before--"if you quit antagonizing [your bully] you won't get beaten up." It never works, but those in power never want to actually deal with the bully.

So, you agree Israel isn't playing nice?

Who is the bully in your metaphor?

I never said Israel was playing nice. In my metaphor the Muslims are the bully.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

The majority of the Jews there came from Arab lands. So you're going to send them to genocide.

Please stop with that bigoted nonsense. Yes there are places where it would be dangerous, but there are plenty of Arabic and Muslim countries where it isn't.

And that's supposed to be relevant how?

It shows your claim is nonsense

You're not addressing my point at all. Many of them came from lands where they would be killed if they returned (not that they would even be allowed in, it's mostly the descendants who never were citizens of the country their parents came from), you aren't distinguishing which ones would be safe.

"Go home" doesn't mean to any Muslim land, it means to the country they came from. They're in Israel because they were driven out, why in the world do you think it would be safe for them to return?

Verify your claim that the only basis for Jews from Arabic lands in Isreal is that they were driven out.

Once again, off target.

I never claimed every Jew who was made to "go home" would die, only that many would. Genocide doesn't require complete extermination.

 

[ZiprHead]

In other words, the only answer is the destruction of Israel and the genocide of the Jews?

Or they could just leave and give the country back to the people they stole it from.

Where will the Jews go once they have left the ME? Can they stay at your place?

They should go back where they came from. MAGA!

You have to admit that no one asked the Palestinians already living there if it was okay to give their country to foreigners.

You think it's a joke that Trump wants to take over Canada, Greenland, etc. You know it's absurd. But that was exactly what was done to the Palestinians that were already living there, including Jews and Christians.

The majority of the Jews there came from Arab lands. So you're going to send them to genocide.

No, they didn't.

 Aliyah

Start at the second Aliyah, very early in the 20th century.

 

[ZiprHead]

You still don't get it--Gaza is a symptom, not the problem. The problem is the terror money. You keep trying to treat the symptom and pretend that will fix the problem.

So how do you fix the money problem?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

[

In other words, the only answer is the destruction of Israel and the genocide of the Jews?

Or they could just leave and give the country back to the people they stole it from.

So where will all you Yanks go when you return the stolen lands back to the original inhabitants?
Whence would you return Zipr?

Same place you Aussies go.

My ancestry is English, Scottish, German and, oh yes, Australian. I was born here. I have as much right to be where I am as anyone else born here. We can discuss immigrants in another thread.

Just like you yanks.

Is it possible for you to not switch the goal posts? If Australia is returned back to the original inhabitants, whence would you return Tigers!? You expected Ziprhead to answer. Why don’t you live up to your expectations and answer?

Misdirection, again.

Tigers! isn't arguing for that position, he's reframing it to make it obvious that it's not an answer.

Please stop with your slanderous accusdations. I showed that his reframing it is not an answer either.

Of course it's not an answer! That's the whole point. Just go back where you came from is not an answer. Not for the Aussies, not for the Jews, not for much of anybody.

So even though you agree with me, you made a slanderous accusation.

Where is there a slanderous accusation?

The issue under discussion is "go back where you came from".

Tigers! flipped it over and asked Zipr where he would go back to--an indirect way of showing that it's not an option.

You added an irrelevancy rather than address the point.

Tigers! pointed out that he is not an immigrant. (And note that the vast majority of the Jews being told to "go home" are not immigrants, either.)

You complained about switching goal posts--no, no goal posts were moved, he just flipped the field. If it's fair one way it's fair the other.

I pointed out that you weren't addressing the point, you called that slander.

The only thing that states anything about anyone else is my saying that you're not addressing the point. To be slander that would have to be false. I sure don't see the point being addressed.

 

[ZiprHead]

Then I don't see why you are arguing against me? They chose a king and that king attacked Israel and now it's shit for them. Actions and consequences. Israel did not deserve this. You keep ignoring just how extreme the 7/10 attack was. It was barbaric to a degree we haven't seen in generations.

Apparently you have not seen videos of what cartels do to captured members of other cartels or anyone that crosses them. Barbarism has never left our world culture the way you seem to think it has.

But the cartel violence is against those who cross them, it is not directed at the population at large.

Irrelevant to my point.

And the cartels do prey on the population at large. Forcing children to join their gang where refusal will be death of the family is not uncommon. I suspect HAMAS does the same.

I think you're mixing up the gangs (where in some areas that definitely does happen--plenty of the applications for refugee status stem from such situations) with the cartels. The cartels want a live and let live relationship with the locals, they are in the business of making money from exports, not from the locals.

(And you're not quite right about the Hamas part--it's not that they'll kill you for not being part of Hamas, but that Hamas ensures you have no other options but to do what they want.)

The gangs are the cartels. It's their enforcement divisions.

 

[laughing dog]

[

In other words, the only answer is the destruction of Israel and the genocide of the Jews?

Or they could just leave and give the country back to the people they stole it from.

So where will all you Yanks go when you return the stolen lands back to the original inhabitants?
Whence would you return Zipr?

Same place you Aussies go.

My ancestry is English, Scottish, German and, oh yes, Australian. I was born here. I have as much right to be where I am as anyone else born here. We can discuss immigrants in another thread.

Just like you yanks.

Is it possible for you to not switch the goal posts? If Australia is returned back to the original inhabitants, whence would you return Tigers!? You expected Ziprhead to answer. Why don’t you live up to your expectations and answer?

Misdirection, again.

Tigers! isn't arguing for that position, he's reframing it to make it obvious that it's not an answer.

Please stop with your slanderous accusdations. I showed that his reframing it is not an answer either.

Of course it's not an answer! That's the whole point. Just go back where you came from is not an answer. Not for the Aussies, not for the Jews, not for much of anybody.

So even though you agree with me, you made a slanderous accusation.

Where is there a slanderous accusation?

The issue under discussion is "go back where you came from".

Tigers! flipped it over and asked Zipr where he would go back to--an indirect way of showing that it's not an option.

You added an irrelevancy rather than address the point.

Tigers! pointed out that he is not an immigrant. (And note that the vast majority of the Jews being told to "go home" are not immigrants, either.)

You complained about switching goal posts--no, no goal posts were moved, he just flipped the field. If it's fair one way it's fair the other.

I pointed out that you weren't addressing the point, you called that slander.

The only thing that states anything about anyone else is my saying that you're not addressing the point. To be slander that would have to be false. I sure don't see the point being addressed.

Wrong on all counts: no irrelevancy and I addressed the point. All your claims are false. And you are derailing the discussion with your persistent “mistaken” charactetizations.

 

[laughing dog]

The majority of the Jews there came from Arab lands. So you're going to send them to genocide.

Please stop with that bigoted nonsense. Yes there are places where it would be dangerous, but there are plenty of Arabic and Muslim countries where it isn't.

And that's supposed to be relevant how?

It shows your claim is nonsense

You're not addressing my point at all. Many of them came from lands where they would be killed if they returned (not that they would even be allowed in, it's mostly the descendants who never were citizens of the country their parents came from), you aren't distinguishing which ones would be safe.

"Go home" doesn't mean to any Muslim land, it means to the country they came from. They're in Israel because they were driven out, why in the world do you think it would be safe for them to return?

Verify your claim that the only basis for Jews from Arabic lands in Isreal is that they were driven out.

Once again, off target.

I never claimed every Jew who was made to "go home" would die, only that many would. Genocide doesn't require complete extermination.

I didn’t say every Jew. Stop evading and provide evidence to support your claim of fact.

 

[laughing dog]

The main problem is that Hamas have made it as hard as possible for Israel to avoid hitting civilians. With that in mind Israel is doing an excellent job. It could have been a lot worse for the Palestinians. A lot worse

Exactly. The propaganda keeps focusing on how many "died" (quotes as there are a lot of problem with the data), completely ignoring how that compares to expectations.

What makes their propaganda differant than your propaganda?

You've been asked this before but all we get are crickets. What are you comparing the expectations to? Where are the numbers you keep claiming is Israel is doing better than?

You shot yourself in the foot before on this by presenting an argument that actually admitted what I was saying. But since that doesn't seem to be enough:

Urban Warfare | Center for Civilians in Conflict

civiliansinconflict.org

Quelle surprise, no numbers.