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Merged Gaza just launched an unprovoked attack on Israel

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There will be thousands more dead children, "Muslim" and "Jew" alike.
Jewish ones to large extent because of all the released terrorists and because this ceasefire deal makes future hostage taking by Palestinian terrorists more likely because it proved successful.

The idiocy here boggles the mind. Homes and hospitals have been destroyed. Children are damaged for life by malnutrition. Direct and indirect deaths in Gaza are credibly estimated at 150,000 or much more. Some objective observers regard Netanyahu as committing nearly a genocide on the Palestinian people. (Netanyahu has been indicted for war crimes.)
This one, again? Strange how they have only managed to trot out one child for the cameras--and clearly a medical situation as the rest of his family looked fine. And it's not showing up in the death toll the ministry is keeping.

And this means Hamas' adventure "proved successful." ??? :confused2: :confused2: Once again, one wonders if some outlandish Infidels are auditioning for The Onion.

Like a stopped clock which is right twice a day, Derec may be right about one thing. The bitterness and hatred against the Israeli war criminals which these massacres have provoked may provoke NEW jihadists plotting revenge in numbers greater than the jihadists Israel has killed.
The problem here is that you do not realize that Hamas does not care about the welfare of the people.

It doesn't even matter if it provoked new jihadists as that's not the driving force. You do what Hamas wants or you die. Yeah, they "recruited" enough to replace their losses--easy enough to do when you have a de facto draft. Hamas has a lot less equipment and a lot less training than they did. And they've lost something like a year's GDP worth of military infrastructure.

And once again the world forced Israel to make a deal that will be bad for them down the road.
 
An estimated 150,000+ Gazans have
This war produced about a 20:1 casualty ratio. Iran won't mind that and would be happy to do it again.

Nitpick: The 25:1 ratio in deaths due to traumatic injury (closer to 30:1 when Israeli killings in West Bank and Syria are included) tells only part of the story. An estimated 150,000+ Gazans have died INDIRECTLY from the current War, e.g. due to lack of medicine or food. IOW the war has killed 8% of the population of Gaza.

I hope you "need a cite" for the 150,000+ figure. It will demonstrate your utter ignorance about this inhumane war.
I'm not going to ask for the 150,000 because Hamas is only claiming about a quarter of that and I very much doubt there is any substantial undercount.
The 150,l00 is a based on the concept of excess deaths, not a body count. Excess deaths are are typically defined as the difference between the observed numbers of deaths in specific time periods and expected numbers of deaths in the same time periods. It is a statistical estimate.

How much stock one takes in such estimates is up to the individual. But their underlying point in this context is that deaths attributable to conflict exceed the body count from bullets and bombs.
 
The hostage/prisoner exchange is only the most visible part of the deal. I'm certain there were a few backroom handshakes and hidden clauses as well, perhaps with Qatar, Jordan, and Iran. I doubt Netanyahu was pressured into a deal that would thwart his long term goals, even if he had to let some high profile terrorists return to Gaza or go into exile.
Any invisible parts of the deal are just speculation on your part.
Of course they are. Did you suppose I was claiming secret knowledge?
 
And this means Hamas' adventure "proved successful." ??? :confused2: :confused2: Once again, one wonders if some outlandish Infidels are auditioning for The Onion.

Like a stopped clock which is right twice a day, Derec may be right about one thing. The bitterness and hatred against the Israeli war criminals which these massacres have provoked may provoke NEW jihadists plotting revenge in numbers greater than the jihadists Israel has killed.
The problem here is that you do not realize that Hamas does not care about the welfare of the people.

:confused2: :confused2: :confused2: :confused2: :confused2:
Hunh???? Who said it did?
Evil, evil, evil, evil, evil. Has anybody at IIDB denied that Hamas is EVIL??

But -- hold on to your britches! -- Two wrongs don't make a right!!

Israel has declared Jerusalem to be its capital city in defiance of United Nations' directive. This capital is recognized ONLY by the U.S.A., Kosovo, and 2 or 3 other "shit-hole" countries that like to suck up to the U.S.A. How do you feel about that Loren?

Do you think that maybe -- MAYBE -- Israel's unwillingness to understand that Palestinians have aspirations might -- just MIGHT -- annoy the Palestinian people? I am asking YOU, Loren. Just answer Yes or No please, if you're even capable of that.

There are 700,000 Israeli settlers living illegally in Palestinian territory. We've heard your defense of that. (It boils down to six words: Might.Makes.Right.Ha.Ha.Ha!) But even so, can you understand that this behavior annoys Palestinians?? Hunh? Yes or No?

And these settlers, these thieves of Palestinian land and homes, are NOT religious fanatics who think God gave them that land. They are "economic migrants", happy that stolen land is cheap. IIUC Netanyahu's government even gives them subsidies to settle on the stolen land.

Please write on the blackboard 50 times:
Two wrongs don't make a right!! Two wrongs don't make a right!! Two wrongs don't make a right!!
 
Yeah, so President Oaf and his I didn't see that coming idea of moving Palestinians to Jordan and Egypt was met with a diplomatic "Go fuck yourself". How about this President Oaf, Egypt accepts all Palestinians of the Gaza Strip and the Gaza Strip becomes part of Egypt. And to rebuild this "real mess" Israel made with US bombs, for the next ten years all future aid to Israel in all forms goes instead toward rebuilding Gaza.
What an obvious and clumsy fuck of a human being. This guy is a national embarrassment.
 
Making claims of anti-semitism is superficial and vapid. It doesn't contribute to meaningful discussion, but instead reduces it to near meme-level bickering and name-calling. If anyone really believes that someone is anti-semitic because of x, y, and z, then a discussion of x, y, and z is far more meaningful.
 
I'm not going to stop calling out antisemitism and racism. I think it's disgusting.
You are ignoring what I said, what Jimmy and Don are now saying.
You'd be more clear if you distinguish between anti-Jewish bigotry, anti Zionist bigotry and being opposed to specific Israeli policies.
Your use of the word antisemitism is more about emotions than communicating. Stop it.
Tom
 
Trump's 'final solution', move all remaining Palestinians to other countries and 'clean the place out'.

Ironic considering the upcoming international event at Auschwitz commemorating the Holocaust.
 
I'm not going to stop calling out antisemitism and racism.
No one should stop calling out actual antisemitism or racism. But you are not doing that, because your usage makes it clear
you do not share the same understanding of the generally accepted meaning.

From what I can tell, your usage has therapeutic value for you but no communication value for any rational person.
 
The hostage/prisoner exchange is only the most visible part of the deal. I'm certain there were a few backroom handshakes and hidden clauses as well, perhaps with Qatar, Jordan, and Iran. I doubt Netanyahu was pressured into a deal that would thwart his long term goals, even if he had to let some high profile terrorists return to Gaza or go into exile.
Any invisible parts of the deal are just speculation on your part.
Of course they are. Did you suppose I was claiming secret knowledge?
Of course it is speculation based upon a more than cursory understanding of negotiations, parties clary those which involve governments and/or terrorists. Deals are made with publicized portions and those that are more quiet.
 
Calling any criticism of Israel anti Jewish and racist has been the Israeli tactic for a long time.

Only a short time after the end of WWII ending the Holocaust Israel by force seized land and expelled Arabs aka Plasticine to form an exclusivity Jewish homeland.


It may be understandable, but what else do you call it but Jewish racism?. Arabs who remained in the borders after the declaration of a state were subjected to a Jim Crow like domination. Land seizure for Jewish colonization continues through today.

It has nothing to do with antisemitism, it has to do with the actions of the state of Israel.
 
This is pertinent to our current discussions: Recognizing Islamophobia, Anti-Palestinian Racism, and Antisemitism

The middle section, How Islamophobia Is Linked to Criticism of Israel as Antisemitism, describes something that happens every time Israel gets mentioned around here. Any criticism of Israeli policies or specific Israeli politicians, no matter how well founded or well documented, is dismissed, glossed over, ignored, or met with Ad Hominems, Tu Quoque fallacies, shifting goalposts, and blatant attempts to shut down conversations.

The final paragraph is a pretty good reflection of my own thoughts:
Defenders of human rights must ground their arguments in law, fundamental legal principles, and verifiable facts so that each person, regardless of race, religion, gender, ethnic identity, or national origin, is treated with the same human dignity, rights, and privileges, to which we all are entitled. These issues must be less about power and control; they must be about rule of law and justice.

IMO, the rightness or wrongness of act does not depend on who is doing it to whom; it is inherent in the act itself. Likewise, the human rights of individuals does not depend on their community or their culture; human rights are the inalienable rights of all human beings.
 
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This is pertinent to our current discussions: Recognizing Islamophobia, Anti-Palestinian Racism, and Antisemitism

The middle section, How Islamophobia Is Linked to Criticism of Israel as Antisemitism, describes something that happens every time Israel gets mentioned around here. Any criticism of Israeli policies or specific Israeli politicians, no matter how well founded or well documented, is dismissed, glossed over, ignored, or met with Ad Hominems, Tu Quoque fallacies, shifting goalposts, and blatant attempts to shut down conversations.

The final paragraph is a pretty good reflection of my own thoughts:
Defenders of human rights must ground their arguments in law, fundamental legal principles, and verifiable facts so that each person, regardless of race, religion, gender, ethnic identity, or national origin, is treated with the same human dignity, rights, and privileges, to which we all are entitled. These issues must be less about power and control; they must be about rule of law and justice.

IMO, the rightness or wrongness of act does not depend on who is doing it to whom; it is inherent in the act itself. Likewise, the human rights of individuals does not depend on their community or their culture; human rights are the inalienable rights of all human beings.
The problem is that pretending it's about the actions of their leaders doesn't change the reality of the situation. You quite understandably want a better answer--but you refuse to recognize there isn't one. If there was something better someone would have proposed it by now. Instead, we see "answers" that are generalities. We see hearts and minds type answers--which is utterly ignoring the fact that the terror exists because Iran (and others) is funding it.

People would prefer to believe the propaganda rather than accept that it's a situation with only horrible answers. That's blasphemy to the left, there must be a better answer and it's the fault of the side with the power if they fail to find it. It's existence is a matter of faith.
 
And Hamas slipped up again. More numbers showing the truth:


article said:
"We have recorded 4,500 amputation cases by the end of 2024, as a result of the continuous Israeli airstrikes and ground attacks on Gaza," Zaher al-Wahidi, the head of the Health Information Unit at the ministry, confirmed in a statement on Friday.

Al-Wahidi highlighted that approximately 800 of the amputees were children, representing 18% of the cases, while 540 were women, accounting for 12%.

Once again, numbers that only make sense if most of the cases are combatants.
 
An estimated 150,000+ Gazans have
This war produced about a 20:1 casualty ratio. Iran won't mind that and would be happy to do it again.

Nitpick: The 25:1 ratio in deaths due to traumatic injury (closer to 30:1 when Israeli killings in West Bank and Syria are included) tells only part of the story. An estimated 150,000+ Gazans have died INDIRECTLY from the current War, e.g. due to lack of medicine or food. IOW the war has killed 8% of the population of Gaza.

I hope you "need a cite" for the 150,000+ figure. It will demonstrate your utter ignorance about this inhumane war.
I'm not going to ask for the 150,000 because Hamas is only claiming about a quarter of that and I very much doubt there is any substantial undercount.
The 150,l00 is a based on the concept of excess deaths, not a body count. Excess deaths are are typically defined as the difference between the observed numbers of deaths in specific time periods and expected numbers of deaths in the same time periods. It is a statistical estimate.
The problem here is that we have "excess" deaths around 3x the total deaths. Had Israel not invaded were 100,000 Palestinians going to come back from the dead?

How much stock one takes in such estimates is up to the individual. But their underlying point in this context is that deaths attributable to conflict exceed the body count from bullets and bombs.
Yeah, I understand. Reality wasn't bad enough for them so they had to pull some numbers out of their asses.
 
This is pertinent to our current discussions: Recognizing Islamophobia, Anti-Palestinian Racism, and Antisemitism

The middle section, How Islamophobia Is Linked to Criticism of Israel as Antisemitism, describes something that happens every time Israel gets mentioned around here. Any criticism of Israeli policies or specific Israeli politicians, no matter how well founded or well documented, is dismissed, glossed over, ignored, or met with Ad Hominems, Tu Quoque fallacies, shifting goalposts, and blatant attempts to shut down conversations.

The final paragraph is a pretty good reflection of my own thoughts:
Defenders of human rights must ground their arguments in law, fundamental legal principles, and verifiable facts so that each person, regardless of race, religion, gender, ethnic identity, or national origin, is treated with the same human dignity, rights, and privileges, to which we all are entitled. These issues must be less about power and control; they must be about rule of law and justice.

IMO, the rightness or wrongness of act does not depend on who is doing it to whom; it is inherent in the act itself. Likewise, the human rights of individuals does not depend on their community or their culture; human rights are the inalienable rights of all human beings.
The problem is that pretending it's about the actions of their leaders doesn't change the reality of the situation. You quite understandably want a better answer--but you refuse to recognize there isn't one. If there was something better someone would have proposed it by now.

What have other people proposed?

I already know the answer in part. I'm just checking to see whether you noticed or remembered those proposals.

If you did notice and can remember, we can discuss why IYO those weren't better than what is currently happening.
Instead, we see "answers" that are generalities. We see hearts and minds type answers--which is utterly ignoring the fact that the terror exists because Iran (and others) is funding it.
Quote a few, with links. I'd like to see if there was any ignoring of terrorism going on.

People would prefer to believe the propaganda rather than accept that it's a situation with only horrible answers. That's blasphemy to the left,

Unsupported assertion.

Who or what is "the left"? Show us the statements from "the left" that indicate what things are "blasphemy" to it, or that "the left" does not recognize that there might not be a perfect solution, only better and worse ones.
there must be a better answer and it's the fault of the side with the power if they fail to find it. It's existence is a matter of faith.
Or it's a matter of perspective. If there is more than one possible answer, then it is possible to sort them into 'better' and 'worse' according to any given criteria.

Is the likelihood of more deaths 'better' or 'worse'?

Is cost a factor, with less costly being 'better' and more costly being 'worse'?

Is time a factor, or environmental damage, or social consequences like shunning or a loss of allies?

If your toe turns black and the doctor says it's gangrenous, the only available options might be considered 'bad' when each one is considered alone, but that doesn't mean having your toe amputated is as bad as losing your entire foot, or your life.

I think a big part of the problem here is that some options have been categorically rejected for emotional reasons, rather than being evaluated logically and pragmatically.

The Two State solution can work IF both States are economically viable and have the usual powers of State such as control of their borders, resource development, immigration, etc. That is unacceptable to both the Zionist factions Netanyahu leads and Islamist factions like PFLP, and from your posting history I surmise you reject it, too. That doesn't mean the Two State solution is as bad as the current situation, with some people empowered and others oppressed according to their religion and ethnicity, with never ending injustice and bloodshed.
 
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And this means Hamas' adventure "proved successful." ??? :confused2: :confused2: Once again, one wonders if some outlandish Infidels are auditioning for The Onion.

Like a stopped clock which is right twice a day, Derec may be right about one thing. The bitterness and hatred against the Israeli war criminals which these massacres have provoked may provoke NEW jihadists plotting revenge in numbers greater than the jihadists Israel has killed.
The problem here is that you do not realize that Hamas does not care about the welfare of the people.

:confused2: :confused2: :confused2: :confused2: :confused2:
Hunh???? Who said it did?
Evil, evil, evil, evil, evil. Has anybody at IIDB denied that Hamas is EVIL??

But -- hold on to your britches! -- Two wrongs don't make a right!!
This has no bearing on what I was saying. You recognize that Hamas is evil, but somehow seem to think that that somehow negates the reality that this is a Hamas victory.
Israel has declared Jerusalem to be its capital city in defiance of United Nations' directive. This capital is recognized ONLY by the U.S.A., Kosovo, and 2 or 3 other "shit-hole" countries that like to suck up to the U.S.A. How do you feel about that Loren?
Totally irrelevant.
Do you think that maybe -- MAYBE -- Israel's unwillingness to understand that Palestinians have aspirations might -- just MIGHT -- annoy the Palestinian people? I am asking YOU, Loren. Just answer Yes or No please, if you're even capable of that.
Once again, totally irrelevant. Whatever aspirations they might have don't enter into the picture. In practice they do what Hamas wants them to do.

There are 700,000 Israeli settlers living illegally in Palestinian territory. We've heard your defense of that. (It boils down to six words: Might.Makes.Right.Ha.Ha.Ha!) But even so, can you understand that this behavior annoys Palestinians?? Hunh? Yes or No?
Yeah, I don't like it. But note the reality: The settlers are entirely in the West Bank, not Gaza. The war is in Gaza, not the West Bank.

And these settlers, these thieves of Palestinian land and homes, are NOT religious fanatics who think God gave them that land. They are "economic migrants", happy that stolen land is cheap. IIUC Netanyahu's government even gives them subsidies to settle on the stolen land.

Please write on the blackboard 50 times:
Two wrongs don't make a right!! Two wrongs don't make a right!! Two wrongs don't make a right!!
But somehow a bunch of irrelevant things support your point??

Are you REALLY this ... obstinate? If an outside group stole YOUR home, or even one of your friends' homes, would YOU feel no resentment? What if 700,000 outsiders invaded your locality? Are you capable of understanding that such mistreatments annoy Palestinians?

And BTW, Israel had illegal settlements in Gaza as recently as 2005. Doubtless they'd plan for more if their ethnic cleansing succeeds.
 
A retired Israeli general stated the obvious.

There is nothing left in Gaza. No jobs, no infrastructure, no food. Young people have no option other than joining Hamas. Hamas is already rebuilding and the hatred is more intense.

Years back I heard a past Israeli leader say if Israeli had treated Palestinians differently fro the start the conflict could have been avoided.
 
And Hamas slipped up again. More numbers showing the truth:


article said:
"We have recorded 4,500 amputation cases by the end of 2024, as a result of the continuous Israeli airstrikes and ground attacks on Gaza," Zaher al-Wahidi, the head of the Health Information Unit at the ministry, confirmed in a statement on Friday.

Al-Wahidi highlighted that approximately 800 of the amputees were children, representing 18% of the cases, while 540 were women, accounting for 12%.

Once again, numbers that only make sense if most of the cases are combatants.

They could also make sense if Israel uses methods that tend to target (groups of) men of certain ages.
 
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