Split Gendered spaces, split from Drag Shows

[TomC]

Because the adults in the room have already accepted that women have a right to be the women's locker room.

In what way have people like Toni, me, or Emily accepted that?

Whoa whoa, slow down there. I said adults.

That's just one level of my disagreement.
Tom

ETA ~Oh wait.
I just caught the snarky dodge.~

 

[AthenaAwakened]

Question for the class

Should a post op, top and bottom, trans woman be considered a woman who should be allow in women-only spaces?

 

[Politesse]

We are trying to determine how trans-women can access an area they have a right to be in, while respecting the concerns of women regarding safety from people that commit actions from the lewd to very violent.

Why do male women have "rights", while female women only have "concerns"?
Tom

Everyone has rights with regard to themselves. They do not have the right to strip others of their rights.

 

[Toni]

As a group? No. Black women do not have a history of being violent towards white women.

As a group, trans-women do not have a history of being violent towards cis-women.

In both cases, violent behaviour is a rare exception.

But you apparently only think it's an important thing to consider in one of the cases.

almost all rapes of women are committed by males

Indeed. Specifically, by cis-males. But a minuscule (but non-zero) number are committed by females, or by transsexuals.

I absolutely do not fear that transwomen will be violent towards...anybody.

Then... what?

Do you seriously believe that cis-male criminals posing as transwomen are a sufficiently common occurrence as to warrant any action specific to that scenario, given that we already have plenty of protections in place to deal with violent and/or sexual assaults?

If a cis man (posing as a transsexual) assaults a woman in a women's locker room, how is this different from a cis man (who is NOT posing as a transsexual) assaulting a woman in a women's locker room?

The problem in need of prevention is the assault. Not the perpetrator's sexuality.

No. I’m not concerned abo

My point is wider and goes to the "ambiguity": the belief that ownership of what she considers to be sufficiently penis shaped confers automatic risk in a social setting.

An unexpected naked person in a place where people are not expected to be naked, should be considered a threat or at the very least a problem.

A person naked where people are expected to be naked is not.

A naked person acting in a way naked people are supposed to act in a place that nudity happens is not an issue.

A naked person acting differently to the way naked people are expected to act in a place that nudity happens is an issue.

Person. Not "man" sometimes and "woman" other times, any person and every person.

Exactly. It's the behavior that's important, not the anatomy.

If men really felt that it was the behavior that's important and not the anatomy then there would not be male members here posting about how uncomfortable and unsafe they themselves felt in male locker rooms.

You have many fine qualities, Loren, but one that you seem to not have is the ability to see things from someone else's perspective. YOU may be just fine with naked strangers with penises in women's locker rooms but a lot of women would not be 'just fine' with that. Naked strangers with penises in unexpected/unanticipated places are a huge danger signal to women. Basically because rape and sexual assault is a huge problem for WOMEN that men seem totally uninterested in addressing. The way that most men deal with the issue of rape of women is to question whether it really was rape or whether she didn't really want it, lead him on, dress the wrong way, have too much/anything to drink or any other intoxicants, accept a ride, leave her door unlocked, walk alone after dark, etc. It's the blame game all the way and women are blamed.

If women feel unsafe or uncomfortable with naked strangers with penises it is because of MEN'S behavior and unwillingness to address the issues of violence which feature so much more heavily among men and is often perpetrated against women.

 

[Toni]

Question for the class

Should a post op, top and bottom, trans woman be considered a woman who should be allow in women-only spaces?

Of course.

 

[TomC]

Everyone has rights with regard to themselves. They do not have the right to strip others of their rights.

What rights are you talking about?

Nobody has a right to use a particular room, making the occupants uncomfortable and unsafe, when there is a near identical facility right next to it.
Tom

 

[TomC]

Question for the class

Should a post op, top and bottom, trans woman be considered a woman who should be allow in women-only spaces?

Of course.

I don't think it's that simple.

Does a post-op male woman who has committed sex crimes against women get entrance to the women's restroom? I don't think so.

Notice I didn't say "convicted of sex crimes". Sex crimes have an extremely low conviction rate.
Tom

 

[Toni]

Question for the class

Should a post op, top and bottom, trans woman be considered a woman who should be allow in women-only spaces?

Of course.

I don't think it's that simple.

Does a post-op male woman who has committed sex crimes against women get entrance to the women's restroom? I don't think so.

Notice I didn't say "convicted of sex crimes". Sex crimes have an extremely low conviction rate.
Tom

And there's the rub: With a very low report rate and an even much lower conviction rate--how does one know? We don't. However, I think the scenario you described is exceedingly rare.

As has been pointed out in this thread, sometimes women sexually assault other women. The rate seems to be quite low; reporting rate is likely lower. I would guess the conviction rate would be relatively high compared with the conviction rate of male sex crime perpetrators. People don't think of women as violent or violent sex offenders but when they are presented with someone from a marginalized group who is credibly accused of committing some heinous crime, I would guess they would be less inclined to think the victim dressed too slutty and had it coming to her.

 

[Toni]

Again and again we make the comparison to what used to happen to blacks--and again and again it's deflected, not addressed.

Why would you make that comparison? It makes no sense. Do you think black women are all okay with naked guys in the locker room?

White women used to not be ok with black women in white restrooms.

Or drinking from the same water fountains or sending their kids to the same schools or giving birth in the same hospitals, etc.

You know who made those rules up, don't you? WHITE MEN.

 

[Toni]

Again and again we make the comparison to what used to happen to blacks--and again and again it's deflected, not addressed.

Is it too inconvenient a reality to actually address?

It's a STUPID analogy. It's an analogy that relies on people being too dumb to understand that WOMEN are not the ones in power who are hoarding power for themselves by trying to keep a subset of males from participating equally in society.

That's why it doesn't get "addressed", aside from the many responses which have told you exactly why your dumb analogy is irrelevant and inappropriate.

All you're doing is trying to emotionally manipulate people into treating women as unimportant and undeserving of safety, dignity, and rights.

To be fair, I don't think he's trying to manipulate male people into treating women as unimportant and undeserving of safety, dignity and rights.

He's trying to manipulate women into believing that they are undeserving of basic rights such as safety, dignity.

 

[Toni]

Because the adults in the room have already accepted that women have a right to be the women's locker room.

In what way have people like Toni, me, or Emily accepted that?

Whoa whoa, slow down there. I said adults.

Are you saying that Emily and I are not adults?

For the (I forget the number)th time: I accept the rights of all women to be in women's locker rooms. I have ZERO desire to see any woman made to feel unsafe or uncomfortable. This includes transwomen.

That does NOT mean that I think that women do not have legitimate concerns. It does not mean that by accepting transwomen, ciswomen relinquish their rights to safety, comfort, feeling secure, and having their modesty respected.

 

[Toni]

Not all males are violent, but violent people are overwhelmingly male.

It's not even just the violence.

A man can make a woman feel uncomfortable and unsafe with no more than a leering look.
This is going to be very situational.
The same behavior in the produce department of a grocery store might feel flattering to the woman on a busy afternoon and make her seriously uncomfortable late in the evening when she has to get through a dark parking lot.
Much less in a restroom at the back of the store where she's alone with the guy.
Tom

Ask almost any woman and she will tell you that if she's walking down the street and ahead of her is a group of males clustered together, she's likely to change her route. An exception might be if she recognizes and knows the males and knows that they're good guys who won't harass her or grab her or catcall or make unwelcome comments as she walks by.

 

[TomC]

Are you saying that Emily and I are not adults?

Mr Higgins was replying to me. He quoted me, not some dames like you and Emily.

Get it?
Tom

 

[Oleg]

Question for the class

Should a post op, top and bottom, trans woman be considered a woman who should be allow in women-only spaces?

Surgery cannot make a man a woman, but the emperors and sultans knew that eunuchs were no threat to the harem.

 

[bilby]

The question is, how long should women leer at a person before being satisfied that they are a trans women?

If anyone is leering at people in a locker room, they're the problem and should be removed by security or the police.

Or should they simply ignore it and just hope?

Bingo!

Just like with literally every other person in the locker room, you should not be noticing any oddities of personal appearance, and certainly shouldn't be making any kind of issue of them. If you do, it's you who is the problem.

I sincerely hope that the person with the weird birthmark isn't going to attack me. Should I ignore it, or leer at them in an attempt to assure myself that they're not an immediate danger to me?

Literally nothing about other people in a locker room is my business, except their behaviour. If they're showering, getting dressed, or looking through their bag for a bottle of shampoo, then I should leave them alone. If they are staring at other people, abusing them verbally, attacking them, or otherwise being aggressive, rude or threatening, then I should call security.

What part of any of this requires (or is even helped in any way by) my noting whether or not they have a penis?

 

[Politesse]

What rights are you talking about?

The right to equal treatment under the law regardless of sex.

 

[bilby]

Are you completely ignorant of the huge numbers of male prisoners who have quite suddenly found that their "true selves" are women, and are asking to be transferred to women's prisons because they're "trans"?

Yes, and so are you.

Unless you consider single digit numbers to be "huge".

Are you completely ignorant of the fact that such prisoners are isolated from the rest of the prison population as a matter of routine, and that this tiny number of individuals are therefore only a problem in that they provide ammunition for exactly the kinds of stupid arguments you are making here?

Won't somebody please think of the children female prisoners!!!

 

[Oleg]

What rights are you talking about?

The right to equal treatment under the law regardless of sex.

A grown man has a right to be naked with a little girl?

 

[TomC]

What rights are you talking about?

The right to equal treatment under the law regardless of sex.

Trans people have that.
Tom

 

[Politesse]

What rights are you talking about?

The right to equal treatment under the law regardless of sex.

A grown man has a right to be naked with a little girl?

No. A person molesting a child is violating the law, but their action, not their gender identity, is the crime.