Split Gendered spaces, split from Drag Shows

[Emily Lake]

We are trying to determine how trans-women can access an area they have a right to be in, while respecting the concerns of women regarding safety from people that commit actions from the lewd to very violent.

Why do male women have "rights", while female women only have "concerns"?
Tom

Everyone has rights with regard to themselves. They do not have the right to strip others of their rights.

I agree with you.

Although I'm pretty sure you will not understand my point.

 

[Emily Lake]

Again and again we make the comparison to what used to happen to blacks--and again and again it's deflected, not addressed.

Is it too inconvenient a reality to actually address?

It's a STUPID analogy. It's an analogy that relies on people being too dumb to understand that WOMEN are not the ones in power who are hoarding power for themselves by trying to keep a subset of males from participating equally in society.

That's why it doesn't get "addressed", aside from the many responses which have told you exactly why your dumb analogy is irrelevant and inappropriate.

All you're doing is trying to emotionally manipulate people into treating women as unimportant and undeserving of safety, dignity, and rights.

To be fair, I don't think he's trying to manipulate male people into treating women as unimportant and undeserving of safety, dignity and rights.

He's trying to manipulate women into believing that they are undeserving of basic rights such as safety, dignity.

So gaslighting then?

 

[Emily Lake]

Are you saying that Emily and I are not adults?

Mr Higgins was replying to me. He quoted me, not some dames like you and Emily.

Get it?
Tom

 

[Emily Lake]

What rights are you talking about?

The right to equal treatment under the law regardless of sex.

Males all have the right to equal treatment under the law regardless of the fact that they are males. So do females. One of those rights is the right to provide or deny consent.

 

[Emily Lake]

Are you completely ignorant of the huge numbers of male prisoners who have quite suddenly found that their "true selves" are women, and are asking to be transferred to women's prisons because they're "trans"?

Yes, and so are you.

Unless you consider single digit numbers to be "huge".

Are you completely ignorant of the fact that such prisoners are isolated from the rest of the prison population as a matter of routine, and that this tiny number of individuals are therefore only a problem in that they provide ammunition for exactly the kinds of stupid arguments you are making here?

Won't somebody please think of the children female prisoners!!!

What the actual fuck are you spouting?

Go educate yourself. Seriously. In Canada, in England, in Scotland, in California and Washington and several other states, those prisoners are NOT isolated. They are moved to the fucking women's prison, and placed in cells with female fucking cellmates!

 

[Emily Lake]

What rights are you talking about?

The right to equal treatment under the law regardless of sex.

Trans people have that.
Tom

Yes, they most certainly do. That's why so many not trans people are angry and scared, and why the alt-right is so successfully using this as a wedge issue to further their anti-Constitutional agenda.

Males who identify as women have all the same rights that any other male has.

Honestly poli, why do you give no fucks about women?

 

[bilby]

Provided they behave, I have no objection.

Simply apply this rule to everyone, and the entire stupid debate vanishes.

Behaviour matters. Genitalia doesn't.

 

[Emily Lake]

So... if a male-bodied person say out loud that they are trans, then women have no say in the matter?

Why would anyone get a "say" in someone else's opinion about themselves?

When someone's opinion of themselves is being used to override my rights, my safety, and my safeguards, I think I have a say in the matter.
If someone holds the opinion that they are my offspring, and thus are entitled to live in my house and eat my food... I think the fact that I have no children and they are not in actuality my offspring is something I ought to have a say in.

Seriously, do you even think these things through before you post them?

When someone is using their opinion of themselves in order to demand obligations from other people - those other people have a say.

How do we tell that they're actually trans, as opposed to just a man up to no good?

You could perhaps look at whether they get up to no good, and if they do, penalise them for it.

How do you tell that the black man behind you in the line at the ATM is actually a bank customer, as opposed to a mugger?

If he's holding an ATM card, are you supposed to just believe that he's just another customer? Do you get no say in the matter?

In a non-bigoted society, all people are sanctioned based only on their actual behaviours. Not on the behaviours we imagine that they might indulge in, based on filtering their physical appearance through our biases. No matter how fearful we might be, this remains the defining feature of non-bigoted society.

Gotcha. In your enlightened manly opinion, women should throw open the doors, relinquish their barriers, submit to the desires of males... and well, if they do end up getting hurt, then they can report it to the police.

Because we know how well that works.

Thanks for your support. Does your mother know how little you care about the safety of women?

 

[Emily Lake]

No, this issue is being spun by the alt-right. Toni and Emily just fell for the bait. We wouldn't be talking about this question at all, positively or negatively, had not far right news sources started pitching this largely fictitious scenario as an imminent threat back in 2019.

Oh you can fuck right off, Poli. So instead of Toni and I being "alt right", we're just dummies in your view? The mere possibility that we might both be intelligent, left-leaning women who have actually thought about this and have considered the policies that you're pushing... well, that couldn't be a thing at all. We must either be evil or dumb since we don't agree with you.

How about you get your nose out of your "ivory tower" and use your vaunted intellect to actually fucking listen and pay attention?

 

[TomC]

Provided they behave, I have no objection.

Simply apply this rule to everyone, and the entire stupid debate vanishes.

Behaviour matters. Genitalia doesn't.

Figure out a way to effectively explain that to everyone and there would be no such problems at all.

Feel free.

Start with the males as they are the overwhelming bulk of the problem.
Tom

 

[Emily Lake]

In a non-bigoted society, all people are sanctioned based only on their actual behaviours. Not on the behaviours we imagine that they might indulge in, based on filtering their physical appearance through our biases. No matter how fearful we might be, this remains the defining feature of non-bigoted society.

Exactly. This, for me, is the main point.

In your society, there are no rational safeguards, no prevention. There's only the vague hope that maybe, if we're lucky, the justice system will actually convict the bad guys, instead of letting 99% of them go.

Why the hell should I surrender my boundaries to your utopian daydream?

 

[Emily Lake]

No, this issue is being spun by the alt-right. Toni and Emily just fell for the bait. We wouldn't be talking about this question at all, positively or negatively, had not far right news sources started pitching this largely fictitious scenario as an imminent threat back in 2019.

It's every bit as politically useful and abuseable by the Wokesters*.
This did not start in 2019.
Tom

*alt-left, whatever

ctrl-left

 

[Emily Lake]

It's relative. Transwomen are far more disadvantaged than women in general.

Based on... what? The fact that someone said so? In what way are they disadvantaged?

 

[Emily Lake]

The fact is, some day a person claiming to be a trans woman is going to rape someone in a bathroom.

Hate to be the one to break it to you dude.
But Hannah Tubbs isn't the first or only trans woman convicted of sexually assaulting a female. IIRC, it was in the restroom at a Denny's restaurant.

Please note that they were male-presenting at the time of the offense. This says nothing about the safety of allowing female-presenting individuals into women's restrooms.

What makes a person claiming a trans identity "male presenting"?

They were not claiming trans identity at the time of the offense.

And you know this how? Maybe they just hadn't found their true selves yet.

I reiterate my question. Outside of this one specific instance... what makes a person "male presenting" or "female presenting"? How do you tell?

 

[Emily Lake]

Provided they behave, I have no objection.

Simply apply this rule to everyone, and the entire stupid debate vanishes.

Behaviour matters. Genitalia doesn't.

You are advocating for a system that allows no preventive measures, no safeguards. We can only hope that AFTER we've been hurt, the perpetrator *might* get convicted.

The unfortunate fact is the men very, very, very often do NOT behave. A whole lot of men misbehave all the fucking time. Holy cow, I'm old and saggy, and I still end up with random men who are complete strangers to me copping a feel when I'm in a crowded venue.

But you think I should just take it on faith that surrendering all notions of prevention and throwing open the doors to any man who wants to be there is going to be just fine?

Yeah, it'll be fine for the men, and well, just fuck the women I suppose?

 

[AthenaAwakened]

So for the most part, what worries some people here is not the existence of trans people but that unscrupulous straight cis gendered men will use the label trans-women to invade women only spaces and assault unsuspecting women?

 

[Toni]

Provided they behave, I have no objection.

Simply apply this rule to everyone, and the entire stupid debate vanishes.

Behaviour matters. Genitalia doesn't.

Tell that to a woman who was gang raped.

Because what there’s a lot of hand waving about is that while it is 100% true that transwomen do not pose an elevated threat to the safety of cis women , so far no one has explained how and why a woman who has been sexually traumatized by a male person will know that she’s safe if she encounters a naked stranger with a penis in the women’s shower. Or a woman who fears being assaulted.

I’m also thinking about a transwoman who would likely be upset or traumatized if she’s confronted by looks of horror from the other women. I can only imagine how awful that would be.

I don’t know how to resolve the issue but I think it needs to be addressed by more than handwaving that women have no right to feel safe

 

[TomC]

So for the most part, what worries some people here is not the existence of trans people but that unscrupulous straight cis gendered men will use the label trans-women to invade women only spaces and assault unsuspecting women?

Sorta.
Let me rephrase it.

There's no way to distinguish between trans people and sexual predators.

Also. There are more unscrupulous male offenders than male women.
Tom

 

[Emily Lake]

So for the most part, what worries some people here is not the existence of trans people but that unscrupulous straight cis gendered men will use the label trans-women to invade women only spaces and assault unsuspecting women?

Interesting framing.

What worries me is very specifically self-id. It's not the existence of transgender identified people. I have no problem with transpeople. I genuinely do not care how anyone dresses or perceives themselves.

What I have a problem with is policies that allow a person to self-declare themselves transgender, with no diagnosis, no oversight, and no way at all to validate their honesty. And by having self-declared, they are granted the privilege of having their internal, subjective, unverifiable gender identity override the realities of sex.

That has many branches of impact. It results in males of any type at all being granted the RIGHT to enter female-only spaces, and it deprives women of any right to say no. It grants any male who wishes it the right to go into a women's shower and see all the naked women he wants, and they cannot say no. All they can do is leave - they can surrender their equal participation in society and voluntarily remove themselves. That's the choice - be available for viewing to any male who says a catechism... or stay home.

It results in muslim and orthodox jewish women being excluded from all bathrooms and locker rooms and showers. That's it, end of their participation in society completely. Because they cannot be in those spaces with a male present. And if any male who says so is allowed to be there... then orthodox women cannot.

It results in male-bodied prisoners being housed in shared cells with female prisoners. And given the already massively disparate types of crimes committed by men versus women, and the fact that an overwhelming number of female prisoners are repeated victims of domestic and sexual abuse, that's cruel and unusual punishment.

It results in rape victims not being able to deny a male clinician examining them. It results in disabled women not being allowed to specify a female caregiver. It results in elderly women having their intimate parts touched by males, and not having the right to say no.

It results in young girls being excluded from women's sports, because males who perceive themselves as "women" have taken their spots. It results in males who make a claim to be transgender to set records for women's sports that women will never be able to break. It results in women experiencing injuries far beyond what another women could cause.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

As for caregivers - you're just wrong. I have the absolute right to deny services from a male caregiver.

I don't think that's what he's talking about.

He's talking about opposite sex caregivers in public, sex segregated, facilities like restrooms.

Exactly. It's not just the elderly like you're talking about, but parent/child also. When the caregiver doesn't match the person being cared for somebody's going to be in the wrong room.