God and freedom

[Tigers!]

You claim that the way of the world is to not be appreciated for having a questioning mind.

How you get from that slightly questionable claim, to the assertion that it is reasonable for the way of heaven to be tortured in agony for eternity for the same thing is not clear.

It seems fucking insanely disproportionate to me. Like, something that only a psychopathic nut job would even consider for a second.

And yet we are expected to accept that this is perfectly OK when commanded by an individual who is simultaneously described as the embodiment of love and mercy? Pull the other one.

You can claim a psycho nutter God; or a loving merciful God. But not both at once. The paradox kills the idea without resort to further analysis.

I don't make both claims simultaneously. Others might.

If I say I have a table in my garage, it is an unsubstantiated claim. Maybe I do, maybe not.

If I say the table is perfectly round; and is also triangular, then you know I am bullshitting, even if I never let you see inside my garage.

Incoherent God concepts are nonexistent by their own definitions.

I agree that incoherent God concepts are nonexistent by their own definitions.

You cannot torture your sinners eternally and love them too.

I think the Bible never claims that God loves sinners for eternity. If you otherwise please provide quote.

 

[DBT]

Even if you don't have an abusive, controlling father disobedience can still have harsh consequences. Consequences are not dependent upon our parents.

But you are saying that the consequences of 'dissent' are governed up by God. Eternal damnation and torment as punishment for nothing more than having a questioning mind.

The consequences of not being political correct are governed by the whinging class. Punishment for nothing more than having a questioning mind about them and their attitude.

Its the way of the world old boy. Questioning minds are never really appreciated.

You are comparing God, the presumed Creator of the Universe, to the 'whinging class' of human society?

 

[fromderinside]

Is this the denominator's thread?

 

[Kharakov]

This is what would be expected if Gods are the creations of men; but if men were all created with the same status before a single creator God, we would expect to see little or no diversity of religious belief - if it is possible to 'know God', then we all would.

Bilby- you're joking there, right? That's a lot like saying there is only one type of proton in the universe, and you would expect to see little or no diversity of form to arise from its actions.

In fact, it's generally true that with the great varieties of perspective on someone, not everyone will have the same ideas about any individual. Does this mean that someone such as you does not exist because different people have different opinions about you (at least until they get to know you a bit better- then we all know you're an asshole <-- joke).

 

[Kharakov]

Remember how I brought down Jesus guys- if you not sinning makes everyone else in the whole universe feel bad about themselves for eternity- you hurt everyone.

Part of the main message, that a lot of people seem to miss, is don't hold a grudge because someone made a fucking mistake, don't look down at them for making a mistake (don't call a fool a fool, or risk a reaction), etc.

Forgive, don't forget, move the fuck on and be nice to everyone, accept atheists or anyone who doesn't believe exactly as I do (me personally), and lay homophone equivocation traps for the unaware.

 

[arkirk]

Remember how I brought down Jesus guys- if you not sinning makes everyone else in the whole universe feel bad about themselves for eternity- you hurt everyone.

Part of the main message, that a lot of people seem to miss, is don't hold a grudge because someone made a fucking mistake, don't look down at them for making a mistake (don't call a fool a fool, or risk a reaction), etc.

Forgive, don't forget, move the fuck on and be nice to everyone, accept atheists or anyone who doesn't believe exactly as I do (me personally), and lay homophone equivocation traps for the unaware.

You ought to do pretty good in Jesus land, where everybody is instructed by holy writ to simultaneously "turn the other cheek" and "not suffer a witch to live." In many ways, the atheist has a decided advantage in that he does not have to match his actions and thoughts to ANY PARTICULAR SET OF INSTRUCTIONS FROM GOD. You can forgive the "turn the other cheek" Christians, but what do you do about witch burners?

 

[Underseer]

Philos;

Let us compare this to dissent in other unhappy situations, such as imprisonment in nasty political systems. In these cases we are still free, despite dreadful hardships, to retain our own moral compass. There are many examples, but one is the case of Nelson Mandela on Robben island. Such cases show that it is possible in these earthly sufferings to retain the spark of freedom within ourselves.

Nelson Mandela was a truly remarkable man, with his freedom came the power to seek vengeance on those who had imprisoned him. But he seemed to show a greater side of forgiveness and mercy, I can't imagine too many people choosing his path.

Having said that, compassion, forgiveness and mercy are at the heart of the Gospel message, the greatest commandments are to love God and to love our neighbour. These commandments are not oppressive.

There is nothing compassionate, forgiving, or merciful in Might is Right. Nothing. You can spout all the nice words you want and it won't change the inhumanity of your religion.

Agreed.

Might makes right is the cornerstone of all three Abrahamic religions, and might makes right is the antithesis of anything good.

 

[Kharakov]

Forgive, don't forget, move the fuck on and be nice to everyone, accept atheists or anyone who doesn't believe exactly as I do (me personally), and lay homophone equivocation traps for the unaware.

You ought to do pretty good in Jesus land, where everybody is instructed by holy writ to simultaneously "turn the other cheek" and "not suffer a witch to live." In many ways, the atheist has a decided advantage in that he does not have to match his actions and thoughts to ANY PARTICULAR SET OF INSTRUCTIONS FROM GOD.

Well, except for the hard coded instructions that make them what they are. It's not like they have control of their genotype or the environment in which they live...

You can forgive the "turn the other cheek" Christians, but what do you do about witch burners?

Throw them on a pile of witches?

 

[Finding Truth]

Could a God give us complete freedom?
YES
But he would have to give bit of advice, because freedom has a sting in its tail.

No need for law or commands, because this advice he would give is self regulating, which means we will punish ourselves.

THIS LAW if you wish to call it, is the law of ACTION AND REACTION OR WE REAP WHAT WE SOW this is part and parcel of complete freedom and with it comes great individual responsibility use it badly and we pay the penalty and wreck havoc on each other in fact this is what is happening to mankind now.

God would say “I have given you complete freedom, that is my gift to you, but now you must give complete freedom to every other person that will ever exist with you, because this is the only safeguard to your existence, security, protection, happiness, peace, unity, joy, your relationship with others and so on.

Another words if you do not respect your freedom and others, (pardon me for using this expression to all atheists) you are going to have hell on earth (this is the only hell anyone will ever experience there is no other)

Now do still want complete freedom or to be a robot?

These observation above is in line with logic, reason, reality, truth, justice and this is how I see the master of eternity thinking, he is not petty, and vindictive certainly not the way most of mankind think, but as a mature eternal entity.

Anyway nobody has been able to prove otherwise. I think the question to ask is not proving there is God; it should be prove that there is no God.

Anyway nobody has been able to prove otherwise. I think the question to ask is not prove there is God, it should be prove that there is no God.

 

[Keith&Co.]

THIS LAW if you wish to call it, is the law of ACTION AND REACTION OR WE REAP WHAT WE SOW this is part and parcel of complete freedom and with it comes great individual responsibility use it badly and we pay the penalty and wreck havoc on each other in fact this is what is happening to mankind now.

Wow.
But, actions having consequences is true whether or not there's a deity hiding himself away somewhere. So what benefit does God give us?
Books written by unknown persons for unknown reasons? We still have those, we just don't all believe they're worth a shit.
God hasn't done anything to show me that any of the characterizations, or candidate fictions are anything but human invention. Just like thevarious books and stories of gods fucking with humans, leading humans, creating and killing humans... Feh.
We seem to be on our own, so why pretend someone else out there cares?

God would say “I have given you complete freedom, that is my gift to you, but now you must give complete freedom to every other person that will ever exist with you, because this is the only safeguard to your existence, security, protection, happiness, peace, unity, joy, your relationship with others and so on.

Why would that follow?

Another words if you do not respect your freedom and others, (pardon me for using this expression to all atheists) you are going to have hell on earth (this is the only hell anyone will ever experience there is no other)

Okay.
Again, how would this world be different if there WAS a God that sponsored the various religious rules that people selectively follow and selectively enforce?

Anyway nobody has been able to prove otherwise. I think the question to ask is not proving there is God; it should be prove that there is no God.

"Should be" for what purpose?

I don't particularly feel a need to drive you away from your god, be he hairy thunderer or cosmic muffin.
I also don't see any reason to take your claims of gods or gods' motives or logic or justice at face value.

So, to me, there's no reason to just assume gods are real.
There's no reason to behave as if gods are real.
There's no benefit to living as if gods are real. No more than there is to leaving little gifts at certain trees and hoping the Keebler Elves bring me cookies.

So there's no real reason to think your 'should be' decree impacts anything but yourself.

 

[abaddon]

These observation above is in line with logic, reason, reality, truth, justice and this is how I see the master of eternity thinking, he is not petty, and vindictive certainly not the way most of mankind think, but as a mature eternal entity.

Vindictive in the way of a mature eternal entity?

How do you know that? How do you judge such a thing?

Anyway nobody has been able to prove otherwise.

That's not a good basis for believing anything.

I think the question to ask is not prove there is God, it should be prove that there is no God.

Believing what people can't prove one way or another, combined with shifting the burden of proof, may feel kind of liberating. But the result of that freedom is just a "I'm gonna believe whatever" post. You compiled a string of mere opinions, with no foundation in logic or evidence or even a "holy book".

To me that looks like an abuse of "complete freedom", to merely compile opinions about things you can't know.

 

[Angry Floof]

Finding Truth, give us more than just one post, you little tease.

 

[Underseer]

That's not the point, Eric. There's no forgiveness or mercy in eternal damnation, is there?
There's no chance for redemption.
If you regret and truly repent your sins once you're in the lake of fire, you're still fucked.

I believe the world is in the mess it is, because we choose to disobey these commandments.

So...it's okay if we burn in Hell because it's our fault?
Still not a lot of compassion, forgiveness or mercy, Eric.

A lot of petty revenge. meaningless punishment. Torture with no goal.

No mercy...

There is also the larger point: an infinite punishment for a finite crime is infinitely unjust.

 

[Mageth]

Having said that, compassion, forgiveness and mercy are at the heart of the Gospel message, the greatest commandments are to love God and to love our neighbour. These commandments are not oppressive.

I know it's been a while, but...

Eric: Have you ever tried commanding someone to love you? A girl, perhaps? If so, how did that work out?

 

[Underseer]

Having said that, compassion, forgiveness and mercy are at the heart of the Gospel message, the greatest commandments are to love God and to love our neighbour. These commandments are not oppressive.

I know it's been a while, but...

Eric: Have you ever tried commanding someone to love you? A girl, perhaps? If so, how did that work out?

It works every time. "Rape" is an imaginary crime that was invented by feminazis to oppress and persecute men. *cheeky*

 

[Finding Truth]

I am very new at this could somone tell me how to put in a previous quote that I want to reply to that ends up in a box.

what I did was copy and past in the last post.

 

[Keith&Co.]

I am very new at this could somone tell me how to put in a previous quote that I want to reply to that ends up in a box.

what I did was copy and past in the last post.

if you hit 'reply with quote' you'll see the entire post with <quote> and </quote> tags around the words.

You can spli toff any words you want to isolate by copying the quote tags to front and back.

 

[Finding Truth]

This subject is about freedom.

are we talking about complete freedom.

and what that would mean for everyone.

and how would it bring happiness to all.

I want to get the right understanding of freedom from how other view it.

 

[Keith&Co.]

This subject is about freedom..

Yes, I asked for the mods to split your evolution topic into a new thread and move it where appropriate.

 

[Angry Floof]

This subject is about freedom.

are we talking about complete freedom.

and what that would mean for everyone.

and how would it bring happiness to all.

I want to get the right understanding of freedom from how other view it.

What kind of freedom comes from "believe the correct thoughts and magical things will happen to you"? (Hint: that's occultism.) What kind of freedom comes from "believe a story about blood sacrifice and virgin birth or else suffer eternal punishment"? (Hint: that's sadism.)

What you're peddling is an immature, might-is-right fairy tale. I imagine it's scary to think about freedom from that.