Growing Up with a Black Cop

[Loren Pechtel]

Banks will invest wherever they expect to make money.

So, naturally, when a black person asks them to invest, the immediate assessment is “this person has a higher than average chance of defaulting, based on first impression”.
That’s systemic racism, even though the banker may have best friends who are black, and might even be black him/herself.

Except that's not what the data says. I have already pointed out the pattern we see and the simplest explanation doesn't involve race at all.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Lets not forget the elephant in the room. The war on drugs was originally declared to target minorities and white people that support them.

Report: Aide says Nixon’s war on drugs targeted blacks, hippies​

Oh but lord forbid the black community be a little apprehensive working with the police to fix their community. The same system is in place now. Duh.

There's no question the drug war itself does target non-whites by it's very nature.

That doesn't mean the answer is anti-discrimination efforts in police activity, it means the answer is to get rid of the drug war. And prohibit the drug warriors from ever working in any sort of police position ever again so we don't just recycle them into a new crusade like we did after the repeal of prohibition. (Finding something to do with all those alcohol cops was a big part of starting the drug war.)

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Asians are the poorest population group in New York City. What would you guess is their crime offense rate?

Do you have data to support your claim?

I see you don't like his inconvenient reality. I don't know specifically about New York City but we've seen the pattern before--Chinatowns are poor but low crime.

 

[Oleg]

Asians are the poorest population group in New York City. What would you guess is their crime offense rate?

Do you have data to support your claim?

Page 8.

https://robinhoodorg-wp-production.s3.amazonaws.com/uploads/2022/04/PT_Annual2021_final.pdf

 

[laughing dog]

Asians are the poorest population group in New York City. What would you guess is their crime offense rate?

Do you have data to support your claim?

Page 8.

https://robinhoodorg-wp-production.s3.amazonaws.com/uploads/2022/04/PT_Annual2021_final.pdf

So, you use the poverty rate as the measure of the poorest population group instead of measures like income by decile, average income, median income. The poverty rate excludes the income of every member of a group that exceeds the poverty line.

 

[laughing dog]

Asians are the poorest population group in New York City. What would you guess is their crime offense rate?

Do you have data to support your claim?

I see you don't like his inconvenient reality. I don't know specifically about New York City but we've seen the pattern before--Chinatowns are poor but low crime.

No, unlike you, I like to see actual data to understand what is being talked about.

Furthermore, there is reported crime (which is usually the basis for statistics) and unreported crime.

 

[AthenaAwakened]

And yet, these crime infested neighborhoods that scare people away get gentrified. Social phenomena are more complicated than this one thing over here or that one thing over there.

So when people who care about social order displace people who don't the neighborhood gets better? I'm shocked.

You can't say crime keeps business out of a neighborhood while businesses are coming to and gentrifying the same neighborhood.

Gentrification is the process where the previous population is pushed out.

Yeah. And gentrification starts with all crime still happening.

 

[Toni]

I would be very surprised if you were correct here.

Surprised to find that a comparable per capita of white people as black are involved in the use and distribution of illegal drugs? I'm not surprised you're surprised.

Rates of Drug Use and Sales, by Race; Rates of Drug Related Criminal Justice Measures, by Race | The Hamilton Project

The Hamilton Project seeks to advance America's promise of opportunity, prosperity, and growth.

www.hamiltonproject.org

View attachment 42139

However, the police difference is to be expected:

No shit. I'm just sick of clowns banging on about how the reason more black people are getting tossed in jail is because its a black culture thing.

Yeah, it's an education thing combined with preexisting problems.

Lots of white people buy and sell drugs but the ones I encounter use the internet. Very few of the white drug dealers I have met in my life have deep gang ties, and so there is very little violence or visibility in that supply chain. You don't need a gang leader or turf to buy drugs that way or to sell them.

White drug dealers as a result end up being independent, word of mouth folks who deal pretty exclusively with friends rather than "slinging" on the street where they would build up a criminal record and police observability.

Either through a failure of education or because of preexisting structures within the black community (probably both), many black people just don't have a good grasp on how to accomplish that. Indeed the difficulty of banking and finding jobs that pay at least well enough mask digital currency activities, there is probably a financial threshold that isn't accessible either.

As a result, black drug dealers are going to tend towards drop-outs lured by Thug Lyfe, and white drug dealers are going to be a mix of drop-outs and folks who are a mix of intelligent, bored, and chemically interested.

So, part of it is black culture, part of it is educational disparity, as far as arrests go.

It's just easier to bust someone who sells drugs publicly on a busy street, and this is why I see so many more black folks being tossed in jail.

A large portion of white people learn how to deal drugs at college and a large portion of black people learn how to deal drugs from not finishing highschool. That IS cultural, but caused by cultural systems created by white people who, for a very long time, sought to establish the trends of whites going to college and blacks going to prison.

You said it a lot better than I did, although I will add one point: The white dealers you are talking about are going to be more upscale. You want the cheapest drugs, you go to the street dealer.

cough cough White people sometimes are the street dealer. Upscale dealers aren't all white.

 

[Gospel]

You know that people from nice, white neighborhoods specifically drive through poorer neighborhoods looking to score drugs, right?

Correct. Because they know that open drug dealing would not be acceptable in their own neighborhood.

Are you insinuating that no black people find open drug dealing in their neighborhood unacceptable?

Oh, I’m sure there are. But they’re outnumbered by those who don’t care. Otherwise, it wouldn’t happen.

I'm certain that if police actually performed more raids in white neighborhoods they'd be driven to the streets as well. I suppose that unlike black people white people are ok with drugs being sold out of their homes. I know in my neck of the woods hoodlums are being pushed out of the house by home owners, family members, spouses & neighbors (because the police are known to get the address wrong and endanger adjacent houses) for fear of their homes getting raided. And don't you jump to that first idiotic thought! They actually don't want to be around the hoodlum or drugs, the raids simply offer extra seasoning for their decision.

If you think about it, it doesn't make sense that people keep selling on the streets if they are so easily caught (judging by arrest statistics) but they do it anyway. I'm explaining why. But you don't give a shit about good black people, you just wanna harp on bad black people. Not original.

 

[Jarhyn]

I would be very surprised if you were correct here.

Surprised to find that a comparable per capita of white people as black are involved in the use and distribution of illegal drugs? I'm not surprised you're surprised.

Rates of Drug Use and Sales, by Race; Rates of Drug Related Criminal Justice Measures, by Race | The Hamilton Project

The Hamilton Project seeks to advance America's promise of opportunity, prosperity, and growth.

www.hamiltonproject.org

View attachment 42139

However, the police difference is to be expected:

No shit. I'm just sick of clowns banging on about how the reason more black people are getting tossed in jail is because its a black culture thing.

Yeah, it's an education thing combined with preexisting problems.

Lots of white people buy and sell drugs but the ones I encounter use the internet. Very few of the white drug dealers I have met in my life have deep gang ties, and so there is very little violence or visibility in that supply chain. You don't need a gang leader or turf to buy drugs that way or to sell them.

White drug dealers as a result end up being independent, word of mouth folks who deal pretty exclusively with friends rather than "slinging" on the street where they would build up a criminal record and police observability.

Either through a failure of education or because of preexisting structures within the black community (probably both), many black people just don't have a good grasp on how to accomplish that. Indeed the difficulty of banking and finding jobs that pay at least well enough mask digital currency activities, there is probably a financial threshold that isn't accessible either.

As a result, black drug dealers are going to tend towards drop-outs lured by Thug Lyfe, and white drug dealers are going to be a mix of drop-outs and folks who are a mix of intelligent, bored, and chemically interested.

So, part of it is black culture, part of it is educational disparity, as far as arrests go.

It's just easier to bust someone who sells drugs publicly on a busy street, and this is why I see so many more black folks being tossed in jail.

A large portion of white people learn how to deal drugs at college and a large portion of black people learn how to deal drugs from not finishing highschool. That IS cultural, but caused by cultural systems created by white people who, for a very long time, sought to establish the trends of whites going to college and blacks going to prison.

You said it a lot better than I did, although I will add one point: The white dealers you are talking about are going to be more upscale. You want the cheapest drugs, you go to the street dealer.

Lol, no, I've never seen a street dealer sell cheap drugs.

Street dealers are for drugs FAST without vetting or relationship building, unless you are living in a community primarily services by street dealers.

You know that people from nice, white neighborhoods specifically drive through poorer neighborhoods looking to score drugs, right?

Correct. Because they know that open drug dealing would not be acceptable in their own neighborhood.

Are you insinuating that no black people find open drug dealing in their neighborhood unacceptable?

Oh, I’m sure there are. But they’re outnumbered by those who don’t care. Otherwise, it wouldn’t happen.

I'm certain that if police actually performed more raids in white neighborhoods they'd be driven to the streets as well. I suppose that unlike black people white people are ok with drugs being sold out of their homes. I know in my neck of the woods hoodlums are being pushed out of the house by home owners, family members, spouses & neighbors (because the police are known to get the address wrong and endanger adjacent houses) for fear of their homes getting raided. And don't you jump to that first idiotic thought! They actually don't want to be around the hoodlum or drugs, the raids simply offer extra seasoning for their decision.

If you think about it, it doesn't make sense that people keep selling on the streets if they are so easily caught (judging by arrest statistics) but they do it anyway. I'm explaining why. But you don't give a shit about good black people, you just wanna harp on bad black people. Not original.

And again, a big difference here is pattern of behavior.

White folks I know who deal this way deal to people who already have a tendency to be friends, at volumes and times which are easily brushed off as "normal social interaction."

One of the first questions police ask about problematic properties and such is when they get visitors, and how often.

Again, these are differences in behavior that largely emerge from the educational gap created by the drug war and systemic racism.

There are differences of behavior as stark as differences in enforcement around here.

It's exacerbated by the fact that the police build active dossiers about drug dealers and make connections on social activity, and to over-enforce so that those dossiers are heavily fleshed out.

There are models for how to do it, but again most rely on having a small operation, few customers, mobility, and another reliable source of income, things black folks were systematically deprived of as families and communities.

 

[Gospel]

White folks I know who deal this way deal to people who already have a tendency to be friends, at volumes and times which are easily brushed off as "normal social interaction."

You keep alluding to things like this. black drug dealers mostly sell to people in their own community. People they see everyday and know. They don't invite everyone and their momma to a transaction like some pan handler. They get caught when they get greedy and/or someone in the community sets them up (which happens often because black people do care). However they are mainly getting caught because they are doing it in the streets. It's not a difference in behavior. Both white and black people are selling drugs. The only difference is why one is doing it in the streets and the other isn't. It's the raids. White drug dealers would change their behavior (just like black people) if their homes got consistently raided. Anyhow you seem to agree with the part that white people are ok with drugs being sold out of homes because it takes a decent amount of looking away on the communities part (unless they don't know shit about each other) for there to be no snitches. Or there are snitches and the police are too focused on black people to care.

 

[Jarhyn]

White folks I know who deal this way deal to people who already have a tendency to be friends, at volumes and times which are easily brushed off as "normal social interaction."

You keep alluding to things like this. black drug dealers mostly sell to people in their own community. People they see everyday and know. They don't invite everyone and their momma to a transaction like some pan handler. They get caught when they get greedy and/or someone in the community sets them up (which happens often because black people do care). However they are mainly getting caught because they are doing it in the streets. It's not a difference in behavior. Both white and black people are selling drugs. The only difference is why one is doing it in the streets and the other isn't. It's the raids. White drug dealers would change their behavior (just like black people) if their homes got consistently raided. Anyhow you seem to agree with the part that white people are ok with drugs being sold out of homes because it takes a decent amount of looking away on the communities part (unless they don't know shit about each other) for there to be no snitches. Or there are snitches and the police are too focused on black people to care.

And the communities I talk about are different. It's hard to quantify the observed difference at times.

The black dealers I see do invite everyone and their momma. They say "loud loud loud" outside a bus stop and think cops can't track them back to the less sketchy drug dealers they bought their supply from.

There's a big difference in supply chain security between communities.

I don't know enough white dealers who deal drugs in such a way as to provoke raids.

They don't throw parties at their houses, they don't play music late at night, they don't drive cars that look like they deal drugs, they don't associate with other people who sell drugs.

Most wouldn't sell drugs to anyone approaching "having a problem".

They get their drugs through the USPS and never even meet the people they buy them from.

Nobody in any of the neighborhoods of any of the white drug dealers I know know they are drug dealers.

The things that get the homes of black drug dealers raided consistently is the closeness of the distribution networks, the interpersonal ties between gang members, and the numerous social messages which encourage loose living and seeking to be "big".

None of them "act with disposable income."

None of them feel any need to "protect their turf"

Many of them will deal directly in digital currency.

I've seen the inside of white drug networks and they are shaped nothing like a classic gang. There are also only generally 1-2 low profit actors per group of 200. The suppliers are anonymous, online and use escrowed trading to get paid. There is no violence in the system and no obligation to participate, either.

The behaviors are structurally different owing to the fact that the communities many white people today participate in connected based on common interests rather than family ties.

I suspect in rural white areas, it's a bit more obvious who deals?

But in urban environments, the structure of the black community often leads to the difference in visibility and enforcement, which is still systemic and structural racism but which end up finding their cause in real differences in behavior.

It's not that my community doesn't know what people are up to, but most of the people in my community also don't live near each other, and aren't much enmeshed with the people the do live near and visit each other at weekly or monthly intervals whether there are drugs involved or not.

There are also fewer vectors for forced inclusion of problematic people in both distribution and purchasing: family participation is rare, and it isn't usually treated as a major source of income. There is no pressing need to operate "for profit".

Things would be different perhaps if the community was structured around a common struggle against racism, or was gripped by poverty.

I suppose other elements might include the religious aspect, insofar as the communities I participate in are not bound to such moral struggles as a fight between gang culture and the "church crowd".

I don't have to deal with any church ladies in my personal life, and rarely do I ever seek jobs where I would have to deal with strongly drug-averse employers.

Again, this is all systemic, but is driven by real differences in behavior nonetheless. It is systemic because the behavioral models which keep white dealers from enforcement simply are not available in black communities.

 

[Gospel]

And when those displaced by gentrification move to affordable housing close to Oleg's neck of the woods, he'll say, that was such a decent neighborhood until those poor brown folks moved in. If only gentrification didn't price people out of a neighborhood but instead absorbed them.

Asians are the poorest population group in New York City. What would you guess is their crime offense rate?

I don't see as many white people standing in their way to get Jobs, loans etc. nor do I see the worst elements of their community constantly being broadcasting on news networks and pricks on community forums while the good sides (which usually garners interest in investment) goes ignored. It's a little easier to manage poverty with less resistance. They also (and I've said this before) hadn't had 10 generations completely destroyed by white people.

 

[Gospel]

The black dealers I see do invite everyone and their momma.

It may seem like that to you, but there is a reason why they're constantly looking over their shoulders. As for most of what you said I agree. I'm not arguing that the environments are the same, I'm saying that there are just as many white people involved in drug use and selling as there are black. The only difference is one is getting arrested more than the other.

 

[Gospel]

Notably, you didn't address my explanation of why we would expect such a difference.

That's because I wasn't making the argument for difference but sameness. My original statement was that people bang on about the issues with drug sales and use in the black community as if the white community doesn't have equvilant levels of drug usage and sales. But yawl want to obfuscate and turn this into an argument of why the disparity in arrests when I ALREADY KNOW WHY THE DISPARITY.

 

[Toni]

Lets not forget the elephant in the room. The war on drugs was originally declared to target minorities and white people that support them.

Report: Aide says Nixon’s war on drugs targeted blacks, hippies​

Oh but lord forbid the black community be a little apprehensive working with the police to fix their community. The same system is in place now. Duh.

There's no question the drug war itself does target non-whites by it's very nature.

That doesn't mean the answer is anti-discrimination efforts in police activity, it means the answer is to get rid of the drug war. And prohibit the drug warriors from ever working in any sort of police position ever again so we don't just recycle them into a new crusade like we did after the repeal of prohibition. (Finding something to do with all those alcohol cops was a big part of starting the drug war.)

Really? Because Prohibition ended in 1933 and Nixon took office in 1969. I seriously doubt any of the anti-alcohol police in 1930 were still serving in 1969….

The so called War on Drugs was more of a political tool targeted towards Black communities and ‘hippies’ or those thought to be left leaning than it ever was to prevent the damage done to lives because of substance abuse.

 

[Toni]

I just wanted to say that I really enjoyed the OP, AA is a wonderful writer.

 

[laughing dog]

Lets not forget the elephant in the room. The war on drugs was originally declared to target minorities and white people that support them.

Report: Aide says Nixon’s war on drugs targeted blacks, hippies​

Oh but lord forbid the black community be a little apprehensive working with the police to fix their community. The same system is in place now. Duh.

There's no question the drug war itself does target non-whites by it's very nature.

That doesn't mean the answer is anti-discrimination efforts in police activity, it means the answer is to get rid of the drug war. And prohibit the drug warriors from ever working in any sort of police position ever again so we don't just recycle them into a new crusade like we did after the repeal of prohibition. (Finding something to do with all those alcohol cops was a big part of starting the drug war.)

Really? Because Prohibition ended in 1933 and Nixon took office in 1969. I seriously doubt any of the anti-alcohol police in 1930 were still serving in 1969….

If they were still alive, they might have been serving ....... alcohol.

 

[Toni]

In my teen years and somewhat before, a lot of white, middle America were prescribed tranquilizers to deal with the stresses of day to day life in middle class America. I remember our family doctor left his practice to pursue training in psychiatry in the mid-60’s because he found so many of his patients’ complaints to have a basis in trauma and stress rather than a bacterial or viral basis. My parents ts were pretty dismayed because he was well liked and trusted.

At the time, there was a lot of talk about the stresses and strains of living in the post-industrial world, and middle class life in an increasingly white collared society. What I don’t think has really been discussed is the burden of the trauma faced by people who grew up during the Great Depression when Americans really did die of starvation. My own parents had pretty traumatic childhoods—it is not difficult to realize that their experiences were much more common than we realize. The Depression was followed by WW II ( and preceded by WW I) and of course the Korean War.

That was a lot of trauma. It is not surprising that psychiatry and the use of various tranquilizers became much more mainstream. I remember my parents asking if I had heard of kids my age taking their parents’ prescriptions. I had not and was stunned at the idea but they must have heard rumors I did not.

White middle class America has had a lot of access to prescription mood altering drugs for decades. Add to that the need to better manage acute and chronic pain from various injuries that accumulates in people who work in many occupations and you get a lot of easy access to addictive drugs that were supposed to be safe. Legal easy access.

When and where I started college, the drugs of choice among the people I knew who indulged were downers to mellow you out and still some hallucinogens.

There has been a dramatic shift in alcohol consumption between my generation and my kids’ generation. It absolutely stuns me the level of alcohol consumption that is just common.

 

[southernhybrid]

I haven't had time to read much of this thread until today, but I don't understand how it became all about drugs. So, I just want to rant a little about a few things and then I'm done. I live in a small city that is slightly Black majority. I've always loved Black people since my first job as a home health nurse, when most of patients were Black people, mostly poor with a few who were middle class. With very few exceptions, my patients and their families were wonderful people, regardless if they lived in poverty or not. That was in the 70s in SC. Since I grew up in an all white area in the Northeast, this was my first opportunity to meet and interact with many Black folks.

Since moving to my current city about 25 years ago, I've had to opportunity to meet and make friends with many Black folks, especially since I joined our local senior center. My middle class neighborhood is now somewhat integrated, although I hope it will become even more so as more of the original home owners move out. I now have Black neighbors that include a nurse, a teacher, a police detective, a guy who works for another city department who is married to a white woman, a retired military officer, a woman who is in charge of the city sanitation department, a fire fighter and a few more Black neighbors who I've seen but know nothing about. My husband knows most of these neighbors better than I do because he takes long walks in the morning and chats with them if they happen to be outside. Not that it's important to this discussion, but mixed race children and relationships are extremely common here as well. For the most part, we all get along, although I"m sure there are some racists here too, as they are everywhere.

My area is one of the lowest crime areas in the entire city. I have close Black friends who are either middle class or very poor. My poorest Black friend is one of the dearest people I've ever known. I've been buying educational and fun things for her granddaughter in an attempt to be a positive influence in her life, and also because her mom and grandma can't afford to do that for her. Most of what I buy her are books because I believe that all children should have their own little collection of books. She and her little brother are so sweet and so much better behaved than most of the white children how I know. So, poverty doesn't lead to crime imo, even if sometimes poor people are desperate enough to do illegal things. We have lots of poor white people where I live as well, and plenty of them have done criminal things, again, most likely related to drugs. Even our poor neighborhoods here are very racially integrated in most areas. Because of how many poor people have been given prison sentences for using or selling drugs, I strongly support the decriminalization or legalization of recreational drugs.

I admire Black culture, and I even sometimes envy it because imo, Black folks are usually far more supportive of each other than most of the white people I've known over the course of my life. I think that my poorest Black friend is able to be as happy as she is because she has such a dear family. I know white people who complain a lot and have almost no social support systems. Imo, that's a problem among white culture. Most of us simply don't embrace and support each other enough like most Black folks do.

Sure there is crime in some Black neighborhoods, but white collar crimes is probably just as big a problem It's just not always as obvious. There is also more crime in poor white neighborhoods, because of course there are times when poor people become desperate, while white collar crime is simply due to greed.

And, btw, prisoners work at our senior center and most of them are white. Just sayin'. Most Black people aren't criminals and most who have been convicted of crimes involve drugs. That is one reason why the war on drugs has been very destructive and very racist. The police rarely go after white dealers like they do Black ones. The police rarely stop white people for a broken tail light or a minor traffic violation and then search their car, like they often do when they stop a Black person. They even search Black folks without having a legitimate reason, which is a violation of the 4th Amendment. I witnessed that once myself a few years ago. The young man's mom also witnessed the stop and she ran out to the car to inform the police that they were violating her son and his friends' rights. Brave woman! So, yes, there is plenty of systemic racism in law enforcement as well as in banking etc. I don't know why so many people are racist, but I despise it. I don't know how to overcome it, but living near each other, working, playing and interacting with each other usually helps.

Let me add, that I find parts of the Northeast to be far more racist than many parts of the South, most likely because most of the North is far more segregated than the South is these days. Or, to put it the way a former Black coworker of mine said, "I'll take a Southern racist over a Northern racist any day because at least I know where I stand with the Southern racist. A few months ago, a Black nurse I met who had grown up in the North told me the exact same thing. So, sadly racism exists in all parts of the. US.

I did feel bad and wonder what my dear Black police detective neighbor was thinking when those Black police beat a defenseless, innocent man to death. To me, it's just more prove that we need drastic changes when it comes to policing in this country. My police neighbor is just a hard working man who is fighting for justice for all. All police should be like him. I imagine that's the type of person that Athena's father was during his working life.

I'll end by saying I appreciated Athena sharing her story about her parents, and I can understand her being proud of her father and his career.

I doubt I'll post again in this thread, as I think I've said enough.