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Harvey Weinstein scandal

I hope that all of these allegations coming to light will empower more people to come forward,speak up and stand up. Most importantl, I hope that people begin to realize how widespread this problem is, not just among the Hollywood set or the political world but everywhere. It affects teens working their first fast food jobs, babysitting, as well as people working in every industry and setting.

The solution is not to restrict the activities and opportunities of women but to raise the expectations of all to treat others with dignity and respect and not as objects to use and abuse.
 
Added to the list in the last couple of weeks are: Dustin Hoffman, Richard Dreyfuss (whose son accused Kevin Spacey), Brett Ratner, George Takei, Mark Halperin, Jeremy Piven, Tom Sizemore, Steven Seagal.

Various execs: Michael Oreskes of NPR, Jimmy Soni of Huffpo, Matt Zimmerman of NBC News, Roy Price of Amazon Studios, Andrew Kreisberg of DC tv shows, Mark Schwahn of One Tree Hill, producer Gary Goddard (accused by Anthony Edwards for when a teen).

The severity of allegations and number vary. Some names are more surprising than others. I knew Ratner had to be as vile as his movies.
 
blastula said:
Added to the list in the last couple of weeks are: Dustin Hoffman, Richard Dreyfuss (whose son accused Kevin Spacey), Brett Ratner, George Takei, Mark Halperin, Jeremy Piven, Tom Sizemore, Steven Seagal.

Various execs: Michael Oreskes of NPR, Jimmy Soni of Huffpo, Matt Zimmerman of NBC News, Roy Price of Amazon Studios, Andrew Kreisberg of DC tv shows, Mark Schwahn of One Tree Hill, producer Gary Goddard (accused by Anthony Edwards for when a teen).

The severity of allegations and number vary. Some names are more surprising than others. I knew Ratner had to be as vile as his movies.
Click to expand...

Hang on... Dustin Hoffman?

http://variety.com/2017/film/news/dustin-hoffman-sexual-harassment-1202604822/

She thought that he was interested in her screenplay. He wasn't. He was interested in her body. But I can't see how any manipulation was in play, other than she manipulating herself because she was such a fan. Assuming it's correct. He claims not to remember her. And all we've got is her version. This is flimsy. Perhaps he was interested in the screen play and then it was shit...so end of story?

Same deal with Richard Dreyfuss. They've got different versions of the story.
http://deadline.com/2017/11/richard-dreyfuss-accused-sexual-harassment-jessica-teich-1202206232/

George Takei also denies it. Two versions of the story, both reasonable.

http://edition.cnn.com/2017/11/11/entertainment/george-takei-sexual-misconduct-allegation/index.html

Famous people are constantly constantly stalked and harassed by people who want attention. Many with mental problems. Especially models can get bitter when they're older and their looks have faded. I'm going to need a hell of a lot more to believe these claims than just the words of single people.

I think it's a witch hunt going on. People are being awfully uncritical here. Just out for blood. We've situations like with Louis CK, where he admits to it... but he hasn't done anything wrong. And gets crucified anyway.

Guys... how about not uncritically sharing these accusations willy nilly? That's adding to hysteria of this mass psychosis. I'm not against #metoo.... But it's already spun out of control. Being bad in bed is not to be a rapist. To suck at flirting isn't sexual harrasement. There has to be a grey area between being inattentive to what signals a woman is sending out, and sexual harassment. Right now, it seems like that grey area is gone.

It completely ignores how the sexual language of our species work. If we need to verbally get consent before we make a move that's the death of passion, good sex and genuine love IMHO. Showing respect isn't only NOT to do things. It's also to take a little initiative and do things. That seems completely gone today
 
How about first we listen to what people say happened to them, then we look for evidence that might corroborate their stories, then we decide if their stories are credible, and then we decide what, if anything, we should do about it.

How about we don't shut down the conversation right when the victims are finally coming forward just because hearing their stories makes us uncomfortable.
 
Arctish said:
How about first we listen to what people say happened to them, then we look for evidence that might corroborate their stories, then we decide if their stories are credible, and then we decide what, if anything, we should do about it.

How about we don't shut down the conversation right when the victims are finally coming forward just because hearing their stories makes us uncomfortable.
Click to expand...

So how do you propose we evaluate the evidence for it? Loads of people are desperate to want to be associated with famous people. So right there is reason not to believe it. If all we've got is their word = not convincing IMHO. Is there any reason to suspect all available evidence wasn't included in the articles? If you have been a victim of something like this and you have evidence, why not put it forward?

There's also quite a few of these (not in Blastula's list) but which are basically a woman feeling bad about someone famous behaving badly at a single instance. Sexual assault has to be something a bit more substantive, or we'll completely dilute it's meaning. Sexual harrasement has to be systematic and over time. I can see little resemblance between the one's in Blastula's list and what Harvey Weinstien did.

Everybody's judgement isn't 100% all the time. Sometimes we make bad judgements. We need to make mistakes to learn from them. Dreyfus says himself that when he first got famous he had a period when he was trying desperately to prove himself to be a man. And then when he became a man, he calmed down. That process is going to involve hit'n'miss. Making the odd bad judgement isn't being a rapist or a sexual predator. But that's what's being implied here.

All boys go through a process before becoming men. That process can be more or less rocky. And we live in a sex phobic society here boys are given zero guidance. No, shit that doesn't work out. Most societies throughout history have had mentoring systems where boys are paired with older men (or the equivalent) to help guide them to manhood. We did away with all of this when we secularized. And not to belabor the point but Christianity fucking sucks in this regard. With absurd moral standards nobody has any hope to live up to, or would even want to. Again... no shit that doesn't work out.

We give boys/men no guidance, tell them to figure it out on their own, and then when they ever make a mistake we treat them as if they've committed the greatest evil ever. I'm sorry, but I don't want to be part of this witch hunt. It's great if we catch Harvey Weinsteins, but we've got to give Dreyfusses and free pass IMHO.

If this keeps going we'll see a huge backlash to #metoo and sexual predators will end up being protected again. Is that what we want?
 
LordKiran said:
http://abcnews.go.com/Entertainment...ged-sexual-assaulter-shamed/story?id=51146972

Terry Crews claims a former talent agent grabbed his junk at a party. Says a lot about how this can happen to anyone no matter how masculine they may look or be.
Click to expand...

I feel like I'm the defender of everyone here, but there are double standards. Women can do this sort of thing. It's completely normalized, isn't it? Especially beautiful women are given a free pass to do pretty much whatever to anyone at any time. I don't like double standards. But we can't first encourage women to do something and then condemn them when they do it.

Gender roles for women have been under tremendous reform the last hundred years or so, and it's right now pretty hard for women to know what is on and what isn't. The male role has only recently started to be questioned. So it's still more obvious for us. I think the manual for acceptable female behaviour hasn't been written yet.
 
DrZoidberg said:
LordKiran said:
http://abcnews.go.com/Entertainment...ged-sexual-assaulter-shamed/story?id=51146972

Terry Crews claims a former talent agent grabbed his junk at a party. Says a lot about how this can happen to anyone no matter how masculine they may look or be.
Click to expand...

I feel like I'm the defender of everyone here, but there are double standards. Women can do this sort of thing. It's completely normalized, isn't it? Especially beautiful women are given a free pass to do pretty much whatever to anyone at any time. I don't like double standards. But we can't first encourage women to do something and then condemn them when they do it.

Gender roles for women have been under tremendous reform the last hundred years or so, and it's right now pretty hard for women to know what is on and what isn't. The male role has only recently started to be questioned. So it's still more obvious for us. I think the manual for acceptable female behaviour hasn't been written yet.
Click to expand...

In certain Muslim communities, honor killings are practiced, but only against women, never against men.

So in order to make everything fair, we should not stop the honor killing of women, but should start doing honor killings to men. Because that's fair.
 
DrZoidberg said:
blastula said:
Added to the list in the last couple of weeks are: Dustin Hoffman, Richard Dreyfuss (whose son accused Kevin Spacey), Brett Ratner, George Takei, Mark Halperin, Jeremy Piven, Tom Sizemore, Steven Seagal.

Various execs: Michael Oreskes of NPR, Jimmy Soni of Huffpo, Matt Zimmerman of NBC News, Roy Price of Amazon Studios, Andrew Kreisberg of DC tv shows, Mark Schwahn of One Tree Hill, producer Gary Goddard (accused by Anthony Edwards for when a teen).

The severity of allegations and number vary. Some names are more surprising than others. I knew Ratner had to be as vile as his movies.
Click to expand...

Hang on... Dustin Hoffman?

http://variety.com/2017/film/news/dustin-hoffman-sexual-harassment-1202604822/

She thought that he was interested in her screenplay. He wasn't. He was interested in her body. But I can't see how any manipulation was in play, other than she manipulating herself because she was such a fan. Assuming it's correct. He claims not to remember her. And all we've got is her version. This is flimsy. Perhaps he was interested in the screen play and then it was shit...so end of story?

Same deal with Richard Dreyfuss. They've got different versions of the story.
http://deadline.com/2017/11/richard-dreyfuss-accused-sexual-harassment-jessica-teich-1202206232/

George Takei also denies it. Two versions of the story, both reasonable.

http://edition.cnn.com/2017/11/11/entertainment/george-takei-sexual-misconduct-allegation/index.html
Click to expand...

?????? It doesn't look like you read any of your links very well. Hoffman gave no comment, he didn't say he had no memory. And they had a second meeting over the script so it's not like he read the script during the meeting, he already knew if he didn't like it. And there is corroboration of her story.

Variety said:
Variety spoke with two other writers that Riss Gatsiounis was friends with at the time, both of whom said that Riss Gatsiounis described the second meeting with Hoffman and Schisgal to them shortly after it happened and verified her account of it.
Click to expand...

And that's not even what I was referring to about Hoffman, it's this story.

Dustin Hoffman Sexually Harassed Me When I Was 17 (Guest Column) | Hollywood Reporter

Which was also mentioned in your link, but you ignored. For corroboration, this woman has letters she wrote at the time describing the incidents. Hoffman did comment, didn't deny and apologized.

Dreyfuss only gives a minimally different story, he says he was asshole then and did drugs, and considered it flirting. He only denies the dick flash.

Takei doesn't give a second version, he says he has no recollection of the man and denies it ever happened. But friends of the accuser confirmed he told them about it years ago.

Famous people are constantly constantly stalked and harassed by people who want attention. Many with mental problems. Especially models can get bitter when they're older and their looks have faded. I'm going to need a hell of a lot more to believe these claims than just the words of single people.
Click to expand...

Try reading the articles better.

I think it's a witch hunt going on. People are being awfully uncritical here. Just out for blood. We've situations like with Louis CK, where he admits to it... but he hasn't done anything wrong. And gets crucified anyway.
Click to expand...

The cheese stands alone.

Guys... how about not uncritically sharing these accusations willy nilly? That's adding to hysteria of this mass psychosis. I'm not against #metoo.... But it's already spun out of control. Being bad in bed is not to be a rapist. To suck at flirting isn't sexual harrasement. There has to be a grey area between being inattentive to what signals a woman is sending out, and sexual harassment. Right now, it seems like that grey area is gone.
Click to expand...

Whipping your dick out is way beyond bad flirting.

It completely ignores how the sexual language of our species work. If we need to verbally get consent before we make a move that's the death of passion, good sex and genuine love IMHO. Showing respect isn't only NOT to do things. It's also to take a little initiative and do things. That seems completely gone today
Click to expand...

These poor witch hunted innocents are going to need a better defense lawyer.

Also, as I said, the allegations vary in severity. The one time grope from some is not equivalent to the actual rapes by others.
 
Maybe in Sweden whipping your dick out of your pants is how they say "Hello" or "How are you" or "Hey, it's Thursday!" I'm only 1/8th Swede, and I confess I don't know as much about he country as I probably should.
 
DrZoidberg said:
LordKiran said:
http://abcnews.go.com/Entertainment...ged-sexual-assaulter-shamed/story?id=51146972

Terry Crews claims a former talent agent grabbed his junk at a party. Says a lot about how this can happen to anyone no matter how masculine they may look or be.
Click to expand...

I feel like I'm the defender of everyone here, but there are double standards. Women can do this sort of thing. It's completely normalized, isn't it?
Click to expand...

What are you saying here ? That it's normal for women to grope men's genitals if and when they feel like it ? Or that in general, men accept being groped by women ?
 
Also, a woman didn't grope Crews.
 
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