Henry Kissinger Dead

[pood]

Also, a little word to the (not-so) wise, those who like to throw around the ”anti-semitic” slur: The Palestinians are Semitic people.

 

[TomC]

Also, a little word to the (not-so) wise, those who like to throw around the ”anti-semitic” slur: The Palestinians are Semitic people.

Totally this. I hate that word.

It's a bit 19th century idiocy intended to make anti-Jewish bigotry sound sciency or something.

But Palestinians are probably more Semitic than western Jews. And criticism of Zionists isn't even anti-Israel, much less anti-Jewish.
Tom

 

[ZiprHead]

Can someone explain what antisemitism among in “ the Left” has to do with Henry Kissinger? Or is this just another one of someone’s hobbyhorse derailing a topic?

I explained it in post #62. I think the vitriolic hatred the Left has for Kissinger has a lot to do with him being Jewish. You do not see that volume of bile being spewed about other members of Nixon and Ford administrations, including those involved in foreign and defense policies.

And yet, you're the only one to remark on his ethnic identity. Are you the Left, Derec? Are you trying to confess something?

We have a thread for that.

The "Every Accusation is a Confession" Thread.

Seeing as we have a "Day Without Stupid", I figured we could have one of these as well, considering how prevalent such stories are nowadays. So I'm gonna start off Moms for Liberty founder's husband under investigation for sexual battery. The Sarasota Police Department is investigating a...

iidb.org

 

[Derec]

Also, a little word to the (not-so) wise, those who like to throw around the ”anti-semitic” slur: The Palestinians are Semitic people.

What? You admit that they are not descendants of ancient Philistines?
Give Gaza back to the Sea Peoples! #LandBack

Seriously though, while Arabs are also a Semitic people, "antisemitism" as a term (it is not a slur) denotes the hatred of Jewish people specifically.

 

[Derec]

But Palestinians are probably more Semitic than western Jews.

Especially the Aryan looking ones like the Tamini clan. If Ahed Tamini time-travelled back to 1930s Germany, she'd be accepted into BdM (Bund deutscher Mädel) no questions asked. Ok, maybe one question:
Reinhilde : If you want to join the Bund deutscher Mädel, you have to really hate the Jews.
Ahed : I do!
Reinhilde : Oh yeah, how much?
Ahed : A lot!
Reinhilde : Right, you're in.

But I know, I know. Imputed brownness. Palestinians and all other Muslims are automatically considered "brown" no matter how white, blond and blue-eyed they are, because Islam is a "non-white" religion.

 

[Derec]

Maybe you should hate someone who was responsible for the deaths of three million people.

What? By himself? Given the singular hatred he gets, you'd think he must have been the absolute ruler of US during the 70s, and not just one cabinet level secretary. Why aren't Nixon's defense secretaries getting the vitriol?

And to suggest that people despise Henry Kissinger because he was Jewish, and not because he was responsible for the deaths of three million people, is a vicious slur.

There must be a reason he gets all the hate for these alleged "war crimes" during the 70s, and not other members of the administrations he was a part of. Maybe the rank and file sufferers from the Kissinger-induced hate priapism (if your hate boner lasts more than four decades, seek medical attention) do not. They are just followers. But the members of the leftist intelligentsia (so-called) that have been militating against Kissinger for decades are a different matter altogether. They chose Kissinger as THE target on purpose. Now, what might that purpose be?

It’s of a piece with labeling as “anti-semitic” those who object to the current Israeli government committing the war crime of indiscriminately slaughtering Palestinians in Gaza.

A lot, and probably most, of opposition to Israel defending itself from aggression and terrorism from Gaza, is due antisemitism.
They do not have a problem with say Ukraine defending itself, because it was attacked by Putin and Russia who want to eradicate it as a sovereign state and conquer it for "Mother Russia". Israel was, on 10/7, attacked by Hamas and Gaza. They likewise want to eliminate Israel as a sovereign state, and conquer Israeli territory for "Palestine". And yet, on the very day Israel was brutally attacked leftists like DSA were out supporting Palestinians and saying that Israel should lay down their arms and not defend itself. If an attitude is singular to the one Jewish state, then antisemitism is a reasonable conclusion.

 

[Derec]

That's ridiculous.

It is not.

Plenty of people have strong, even extremist, opinions about the violence going on there. That is not the same as an irrational bigotry towards Jews.

I beg to differ. Extremist opposition to all things Israel, to its right to defend itself from aggression and terrorism, or even opposition to its very right to exist, is driven by bigotry against Jews in many if not most cases. Why else single out the Jewish state?
If one opposes Ukraine defending itself from aggression too, I guess that's consistent, but if you think every country save for Israel has the right to defend itself, then you just might be an antisemite.

That sort of bigotry is far more prevalent amongst right wing xenophobic people.

I do not think so. Especially given immigration of Muslims into the US and them largely aligning with the US left, I do think it's about even, or even more antisemites on the left.

Similarly, I think people despise Kissinger for his behavior.

How many of the people gloating about his death on X or elsewhere are even familiar with the details of his behavior?
How many can even name the defense secretaries under Nixon? Or the joint chiefs of staff? Or other people involved in the foreign and defense policies of the Nixon administration? No, it's immer wieder Kissinger. And it is legitimate to ask why he, and only he, gets all the bile, all the vitriol. Just like Israel among all the countries in the world, so Kissinger got singled out among all the senior people in the Nixon administration. It is not crazy to see parallels here.

Nothing to do with his ethnicity or religious beliefs. He became a symbol of ugly American behavior

All the more ironic because he is German by origin.

because he played such a big role in it. I'm not sure how many people even know that much about his personal life. Most of his most vicious critics saw him as all too American.

So you are saying it is more anti-American bigotry than anti-Jewish or anti-German bigotry? But the rest of the Nixon administration have been Americans too, so that doesn't fly.

 

[Derec]

A) not what I said. You've provided no proof that leftists disliked Kissinger because he's Jewish

Proof is for math and liquor. I offered plenty of reasons, however, for my suspicion about the singular hatred Kissinger gets but others in the Nixon administration are spared from.

b) for every left wing anti-semite (and I never denied that they exist) I guarantee there are about 50 right wing anti semites.

I beg to differ. Plenty of antisemites on the left. Also, there are many Muslims in the US these days and they are often antisemitic and they tend to be aligned with the Democrats.

This also has fuck all to do with what I said. I'll spell it out for you - people who hate jews are more likely to vote for Trump than they would for Biden. Despite the fact they are very fine people.

You are shifting goalposts. You said that Trump is likely to eat lunch with antisemites. Now it's voting for him. Not the same thing.

Leftist and Muslim antisemites are threatening not to vote for Biden next election, so you may be right for 2024 if this attitude persists.
Swing-state Muslim leaders launch campaign to ‘abandon’ Biden in 2024
However, I very much doubt it was the case in 2020 or 2016.

 

[Politesse]

Extremist opposition to all things Israel, to its right to defend itself from aggression and terrorism, or even opposition to its very right to exist, is driven by bigotry against Jews in many if not most cases. Why else single out the Jewish state?

Why single out the Jewish state if your problem is with Judaism? As opposed to, you know, the state? Less than half of world's Jewish population live in Israel.

 

[Derec]

I doubt it. Most people today recognise both men to have been cunts of the first order.

I think the RevComs in the US still like him.

But as long as neither was charged, much less convicted of their crimes, I guess you are happy to continue admiring them.

Big difference between the two men. One was a dictator who died in office. He could not be brought to justice no matter his crimes.
Kissinger was a cabinet secretary in a democracy, and he lived for decades as a private citizen after leaving office. If there was evidence for crimes, he could have easily been prosecuted.

 

[Derec]

Why single out the Jewish state if your problem is with Judaism? As opposed to, you know, the state? Less than half of world's Jewish population live in Israel.

They single out Israel, the only state with a Jewish majority, among all the other states.
Why is that so hard for you to acknowledge that you twist yourself in logic pretzels to avoid it?

 

[pood]

Maybe you should hate someone who was responsible for the deaths of three million people.

What? By himself? Given the singular hatred he gets, you'd think he must have been the absolute ruler of US during the 70s, and not just one cabinet level secretary. Why aren't Nixon's defense secretaries getting the vitriol?

Here’s a little history lesson: NIxon’s first secretary of state was William Rogers. Kissinger was the national security adviser. Historians will tell you that Nixon sidelined Rogers and from the get-go made Kissinger the de facto secretary of state, which he became officially in 1973. Nixon rarely had love boners — when he had his semi-annual erection, as Hunter S. Thompson described it, I believed they shipped him off to Walter Reed Medical Center to have it deflated. But he sure had a love boner for Henry Kissinger, because the two of them schemed in secret to widen the war in Vietnam and carpet bomb Cambodia. Now, those of us who deprecate Kissinger, deprecate Nixon just as strongly. Did you somehow overlook my indictment of Nixon upthread?

And to suggest that people despise Henry Kissinger because he was Jewish, and not because he was responsible for the deaths of three million people, is a vicious slur.

There must be a reason he gets all the hate for these alleged "war crimes" during the 70s, and not other members of the administrations he was a part of.

Nixon gets just as much hate for these misdeeds as Kissinger (see above) and in fact that love pair was solely responsible for these war crimes. No one else in the Nixon administration was, because no one else had any influence on these policies. See above about William Rogers.

And calling the deaths of some three million people as a result of the Kissinger/Nixon polices “alleged” war crimes does not speak well of you. I put Kissinger first in the couplet because he was the evil genius behind their raging barbaric war hard-on.

Maybe the rank and file sufferers from the Kissinger-induced hate priapism (if your hate boner lasts more than four decades, seek medical attention) do not. They are just followers. But the members of the leftist intelligentsia (so-called) that have been militating against Kissinger for decades are a different matter altogether. They chose Kissinger as THE target on purpose. Now, what might that purpose be?

Because he was responsible for the deaths of some three million people. Do the deaths of three million people not trouble you, Derec? Also, as noted above, Kissinger is not THE target. The other target was his holocaust bed mate, Richard M. Nixon. The reason people are focusing their ire on Kissinger NOW is because Kissinger died just now. Nixon was dispatched to the tender ministrations of Satan some three decades ago.

It’s of a piece with labeling as “anti-semitic” those who object to the current Israeli government committing the war crime of indiscriminately slaughtering Palestinians in Gaza.

A lot, and probably most, of opposition to Israel defending itself from aggression and terrorism from Gaza, is due antisemitism.

Prove it.

They do not have a problem with say Ukraine defending itself, because it was attacked by Putin and Russia who want to eradicate it as a sovereign state and conquer it for "Mother Russia".

There is, of course, a huge difference between Israel and Ukraine, starting with the fact that Palestinians were evicted from their own land in the late 1940s to make way for Israel, which of course is the reason for this whole ongoing conflict. There are many other dissimilarities besides, but for now I’ll just leave the issue at its most salient point.

Israel was, on 10/7, attacked by Hamas and Gaza. They likewise want to eliminate Israel as a sovereign state, and conquer Israeli territory for "Palestine".

You mean reclaim Palestinian territory, maybe?

And yet, on the very day Israel was brutally attacked leftists like DSA were out supporting Palestinians and saying that Israel should lay down their arms and not defend itself. If an attitude is singular to the one Jewish state, then antisemitism is a reasonable conclusion.

Bullshit, Derec. No one I know supports or condones in any way the Hamas atrocity on October 7. What we reasonably object to is Israel’s response: mass and indiscriminate slaughter of innocent Palestinian citizens, a great many of them, and perhaps most, children.

 

[laughing dog]

A lot, and probably most, of opposition to Israel defending itself from aggression and terrorism from Gaza, is due antisemitism.

Would you also agree to the observation that a lot, and probably most, or opposition to #BLM is due to racism?

 

[bilby]

Why single out the Jewish state if your problem is with Judaism? As opposed to, you know, the state? Less than half of world's Jewish population live in Israel.

They single out Israel, the only state with a Jewish majority, among all the other states.
Why is that so hard for you to acknowledge that you twist yourself in logic pretzels to avoid it?

Because by your logic, anyone who opposes Putin's invasion of Ukraine must have a problem with nations that have the largest land area. Only Russia has that distinction, so clearly any dislike of Russia is caused by land-area-phobia.

Every state is the only state that X, for some X. That doesn't imply that if someone opposes their policy Y, they are secretly opposed to X.

 

[pood]

“Blatant disregard for basic humanity”

Now estimated that 80 percent of Gazans have been internally displaced.

 

[Derec]

“Blatant disregard for basic humanity”

Now estimated that 80 percent of Gazans have been internally displaced.

Massacres have consequences.

 

[Patooka]

You are shifting goalposts. You said that Trump is likely to eat lunch with antisemites. Now it's voting for him. Not the same thing.

That Venn Diagram has been a circle since 2017.

 

[ideologyhunter]

And yet, you're the only one to remark on his ethnic identity.

Because I think it has to do with the vitriol your side has for him.

Are you the Left, Derec?

Of course not. I do not have a hate priapism for the guy since the 1970s. Unlike some of you.

Maybe you should hate someone who was responsible for the deaths of three million people.

And to suggest that people despise Henry Kissinger because he was Jewish, and not because he was responsible for the deaths of three million people, is a vicious slur. It’s of a piece with labeling as “anti-semitic” those who object to the current Israeli government committing the war crime of indiscriminately slaughtering Palestinians in Gaza.

This is so silly for another reason: if you read the journalism/books that detail Kissinger's impact on the Laotians, the Chileans, etc., it's in the context of Nixon's administration. It's Nixon + Kissinger doing these things. So...are we going to posit antiQuaker plus antisemitism? You'd have to show me a record of any serious commentator anywhere referring even tangentially to Kissinger's Jewishness. I haven't seen it. Source this, or realize that it's just right wing smoke.

 

[pood]

“Blatant disregard for basic humanity”

Now estimated that 80 percent of Gazans have been internally displaced.

Massacres have consequences.

View attachment 44832

That’s nice, Derec. So you approve of Israel slaughtering vast numbers of innocent Palestinians, most of them children, for the terrror attack perpetrated by a few? No wonder you love Henry Kissinger.

Were going to ignore the important little history lesson I gave you, Derec?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

“Blatant disregard for basic humanity”

Now estimated that 80 percent of Gazans have been internally displaced.

Massacres have consequences.

View attachment 44832

The problem is that Hamas did the fucking around and the people do the finding out.

The Palestinians are victims--but of Iran, not of Israel.