Hezbollah’s Exploding Electronics

[Tigers!]

Islamist desire to destroy Israel did.

Why?

Because Israelis do not want to be destroyed. Duh!

But some people think Israel not letting themselves be genocided by islamofascists is itself "genocide". Truly an Orwellian instance of reversing offender and victim.

No, why do the Islamists wish to destroy Israel?

Is that a serious question?

 

[steve_bank]

Did Israel put together a large number of bombs in a foreign country?

For any other group it would be called out as international terrorism.

 

[steve_bank]

Israel is killing a lot of people but seems to me to be sprung its wheels.

The war objectives have not been met yet. Hamas is still in power in Gaza internally. And Hamas is still holding many hostages and refuses to release them without unreasonable concessions. But the war has not been going that long compared to say US wars in Iraq or Afghanistan. And in this time Israel managed to kill many Hamas and allied fighters, including many commanders, as well as dismantle much of Hamas' terror infrastructure, especially the tunnels.

The beeper bombs to me says desperation.

Why?

Netanyahu faces prosecution when he is out of office, it is in his interest to keep the war going. But it has backfired, the war is not ending and there is growing demand he step down.

I understand hostage families' frustration. But a "deal" is not a solution as long as Hamas continues to demand release of thousands of terror prisoners for it. Regardless of Bibi's personal motivations, the war needs to continue until Hamas modifies their demands. Maybe once IDF manages to kill Yahya Sinwar the next guy will be more amenable to reason.

In Vietnam it went to retorting body counts implying we were killing more VC and NVA than they could replace. We lost despite superior weapons. We were always 'winning'.

US lost in Vietnam because of Walter Cronkite et al, not because we were defeated militarily. But Vietnam was across the world, not next door. And North Vietnam never invaded US, killing thousands and kidnapping hostages, nor has North Vietnam vowed to destroy the US and establish a communist dictatorship on the entire US territory. So the stakes are quite a bit higher.

Israel's treatment of Palestinians created the threat in the first place.

No, it did not. Islamist desire to destroy Israel did.

We are mainly hearing the conservative Israeli narrative over here not the Israeli opposition to settlements.

Settlements are not a major issue. All settlements in Gaza had been dismantled, and yet that has not led to a decrease in hostility from Gaza.

Even as this is all going on Israelis are moving into and occupying Palestinian land.

What do you consider "Palestinian land"?

At his point I see no moral high ground for Israel.

Compared to Palestinians, Hezbollah and the Iranian theocrats, Israel is on Mount Everest.

To Netanyahu the elimination of Palestinians is the solution. It is a de facto genocide.

From reporting from Israel Palestinians have long been dehumanized, much as Nazis did to Jews.

Palestinians may be at the point where they can not rebuild. Children who are the future are dying.

Infrastructure, hospitals, schools ,business, and homes are destroyed. Israel knows exactly what it is doing in Gaza and the West Bank.

 

[Arctish]

No, why do the Islamists wish to destroy Israel?

Does it really matter? Probably a similar reason why Nazis tried to exterminate the Jews.
In fact, these two loathsome groups worked on that plan together in the 1940s.

^This is Holocaust Revisionist bullshit. It is a lie. It is a lie Netanyahu spread in a political maneuver, much like the lie Trump spread about Haitian immigrants in Springfield.

Yes, the Grand Mufti had a meeting with Hitler. I posted the Mufti's statement as reported by The Times of Israel in a previous discussion <link> with you. I have also repeatedly posted David Ben Gurion's statement that the Palestinians had nothing to do with the Holocaust and invited anyone who disagrees with Ben Gurion's assessment to post their rebuttal.

IMO there's no excuse for believing Netanyahu's lies about Palestinian participation in the Holocaust. But I'm willing to listen to whatever you have that supports that position, unless it's just racism and religious bigotry trying to pass as logic and reason, because that's just a waste of time. I already know about your prejudice against Muslims in general and Palestinians in particular.

 

[Politesse]

Islamist desire to destroy Israel did.

Why?

Because Israelis do not want to be destroyed. Duh!

But some people think Israel not letting themselves be genocided by islamofascists is itself "genocide". Truly an Orwellian instance of reversing offender and victim.

No, why do the Islamists wish to destroy Israel?

Is that a serious question?

In the sense of not knowing the answer? No. In the sense of being genuinely curious what the people who drink the koolaid think is going on in Israel? Yes.

 

[ZiprHead]

Settlements are not a major issue. All settlements in Gaza had been dismantled, and yet that has not led to a decrease in hostility from Gaza.

What about the settlements and settler violence on the west bank? Do you think it was not a major issue to the Palestinians thrown out of their homes, killed, and terrorized by settlers under the protection of the Israeli military?

 

[Derec]

Settlements are not a major issue. All settlements in Gaza had been dismantled, and yet that has not led to a decrease in hostility from Gaza.

What about the settlements and settler violence on the west bank? Do you think it was not a major issue to the Palestinians thrown out of their homes, killed, and terrorized by settlers under the protection of the Israeli military?

Attacks by settlers against West Bank Palestinians are wrong. So are attacks by West Bank Palestinian gunmen against settlers or even against civilians in Israel proper.
But what you wrote is nonresponsive to my point. Israel dismantled all settlements in Gaza in 2005. It did not lead to Gaza becoming peaceful. Quite the contrary. Attacks from Gaza against Israel increased, culminating in the 10/7 massacre. Why do you think abandoning settlements in West Bank (aka Judea and Samaria) would have a different outcome? Not to mention that the Green Line is just an armistice line. Israel has a historical claim on Judea and Samaria, and there should be negotiations about final border. However, Palestinians have been unwilling to concede even East Jerusalem or so-called "right of return" which is a complete non-starter.

 

[laughing dog]

Exploding electronics is s clever trick. It forces Hezbollah and other terrorist groups to rethink their methods and change the communication tactics. It gains Israel some extra relief until the reprisal.

And highlights once again the disregard Isreal has for Arab civilian life.

 

[Derec]

END fighting? They're waging war against multiple nations,

You mean Israel has been ATTACKED by multiple nations/territories such as Gaza, Lebanon and Yemen? Israel did not seek this conflict. They were attacked. In a most brutal fashion too, let me remind you.

targeting children,

Israel does not target children. Your Hamas and Hezbollah very much do.

devising "clever" ways to advance military lethality against civilians at every opportunity

Hezbollah operatives are not "civilians".

... Israel is among the most murderous nations that still exists,

Bullshit.

oppressing the tiny nation that is their only imperial possession

It is not a colonial possession. Note that this "tiny nation" seeks to destroy Israel and has full backing to do so by one of the most murderous nations in existence today - the Iranian theocracy.

and fighting wars by means that most civilized nations abandoned more than a half century ago.

Like what?

Their conduct is inexcusable, and they obviously intend to drag my nation into their foolish wars.

US may well be dragged into the conflict, but if it is, it will be because of actions of Tehran and its vassals. Not because Israel dare defend itself form genocidal aggression by these islamofascists.

I despise Benjamin Netanyahu and his entire cabal to a degree that I reserve for few.

And yet you do not despise Nasrallah, or Sinwar, or Khamenei, people who are actually guilty of things you accuse Israel and its leadership of.

 

[Derec]

If anything, I see this as killing Israel's electronics exports. Who is going to buy electronics made there?

Mossad would not be using Israeli companies to pull this off. Why would Hezbollah buy Israeli tech? So I do not see why this would kill Israel's exports. Electronics overtly made in Israel is the least likely to contain modifications from the Office.

 

[Derec]

It is difficult to get a good feel for the accuracy of the reporting, but it sounds like it wasn't just Hezbollah members who had these devices.

No, it's Hezbollah members and allies (such as that Iranian ambassador cum Hezbollah liaison) who received these devices. In the first wave (pagers) there were 12 fatalities. 10 of them were claimed by Hezbollah as its fighters (see post #21 for their photos) . Two were children, which is tragic, but what likely happened is that the kids handled their daddies' pagers when they went off. Anyway, 10/12 is 83% and it's not like there is any evidence the other two were delivered to random civilians either. I also see no difference to assume this percentage is substantially different with injuries vs. fatalities.

If this was a more random attack,

It was a very non-random attack.

that didn't discriminate regarding who had possession, this would be be very unethical.

There is no way to prevent uninvolved people randomly grabbing terrorists' pagers at a very inopportune time. But then again, there is no way to prevent unfortunate eventualities in any sort of operation. That said, it does very much look like only those involved with Hezbollah received these pagers.

 

[Derec]

Yeah but who cares about innocents? Just stop thinking about it and be a mindless idiot.

There is no way to completely prevent harm to civilians. What you effectively want is for Israel to stop defending itself.
Note that Hezbollah, Hamas, Houthis et al very much intend to harm innocents. And yet, they receive far less condemnation from the Left any Israeli operation, even when the civilian toll, as in this case, is rather low.

 

[Derec]

You are misinformed in your attempt at apologia for killing and injuring noncombatants.

I am not misinformed; you are. Noncombatants can be harmed without being targeted.
On the other hand, your side unashamedly targets civilians on a regular basis.

As usual nothing in your response rebuts my point. I showed how they are alike not how they are identical.

They are not alike. The only point of similarity is that they both contain explosives, and even that is a stretch because of very different quantity of explosive materials in each weapon.

 

[Derec]

If we allow Hezbollah to set the bar, might as well just bomb Lebanon into the stone age.

It is not about Hezbollah setting the bar, but about being held to the same standards. Instead, Israel is attacked for every imperfection (how dare their operation not have 100% success rate!) while not battling an eye when Hezbollah murders a dozen children and teenagers playing soccer with indiscriminate rocket fire.

Also, Lebanon as a state should definitely be held responsible for allowing Hezbollah to operate . US waged war on Afghanistan for giving aid and comfort to Al Qaeda. How is Lebanon any better in that regard? It is a place with so much potential, but it is run by cowards who let terrorists run free in their territory.

There is a difference between a simultaneous attack that targets Hezbollah directly... and a widespread attack that indiscriminately sets off explosions in the public.

It's not like random pagers were going off willy nilly. These were pagers owned by Hezbollah members. And the explosive charges were small enough that one had to have it on their person - in a pocket or holding it up to read a message - to be harmed. See the footage at the grocery store. People were standing in close proximity to the hapless terrorist, and yet only he was injured.

Obviously, managing an attack like this requires the explosions to be at the same time. The problem would be if Israel didn't give a damn about where the explosions took place.

Obviously, given the number of targets and the requirement that the explosions happen near simultaneously, targets will be in all sorts of places. However, the small charges means that the danger to innocent bystanders was minimal (again, see the grocery store blasts).

Collateral damage will happen. But when it does, you need a lot of targeted damage to overwhelm the collateral damage.

Collateral damage will always happen. But from the data available (i.e. fatalities of the pager wave) the targeted damage definitely overwhelmed the collateral damage.

Israel isn't talking and Hezbollah most likely won't be forth coming about their losses if they are big, especially if Israel trolled them into getting these devices in the first place!

Well, they did claim 10/12 fatalities of the first wave. Not sure about the fraction for the second, but I have seen some martyr photos for that wave as well, including a 16 year old terrorist who will probably be classified as "child" by Rhea and others.

So we are left in a canyon of ignorance regarding Hezbollah losses and civilian casualties. And if anything else is planned.

The only civilian casualties I have seen were two children that were presumably offspring of the owners of the pagers and the intended targets. Tragic, sure, as children have no choice in who their parents are, but in the end it's their fathers' fault for being terrorists and thus legitimate targets.

But yes, some disinterested agency compiling best data of who the casualties are would be very good.

 

[steve_bank]

Settlements not an issue? Un fucking believable if you actually believe that.

Israel was bull on seized Arab lands in the first place.

The Israel propaganda narrative over here for decades has been the only reason they stack us is because we are Jews.

Muslims will differentiate between Jews and Jewish Zionists, much as we differentiate between Mulls and Islamists.


Jimmy Carter who brokered the Camp David Accords wrote that the settlements are the major impediment too peace.

 

[Derec]

But how can small devices then lead to so many injuries. The data seems off.

I do not see the problem. There were many such devices, each one only injuring one person.
The devices were really only dangerous to a person holding one or having it in his pocket. 1000s or such devices leading to 1000s of injuries is hardly inconceivable.

From what you've heard? Dude, if this is something that you've "heard" it is either worthless, or you shouldn't be talking about it.

I also included a Reuters article about it. I guess their reporters heard it too.

Yes, and they could have organically come up with the idea to swap out, but Israel could have dropped some crumbs for Hezbollah to mistake as good intel.

Could be. But everybody knows that cell phones capture a lot of data about their users. So it's not exactly a leap to conclude that one can be tracked that way.

No you don't. You take the device, leave it behind, it explodes.

This is very different than what Israel did here - intercept a shipment for a particular organization. This was targeted. What you are describing is very different - indiscriminate targeting of whomever is around. Terrorists have been leaving stuff around to explode forever - it's not exactly innovative.

Remember, armed drones were great... when only the US had them.

So were nuclear weapons, to be fair.
Drones are still pretty great, but yes, more of challenge now that they are more widespread.
But again, what you described above is very different than what Mossad pulled off. It's like comparing an armed drone with an unguided missile you just randomly point toward a city.

 

[Derec]

Terrorism, rather. And it is even if only Hezbollah members owned all the pagers, as the indiscriminate detonation makes it just as likely that some child, friend, or random bystander will be injured.

Once again you demand perfection of Israel and call it "terrorism" if there is any collateral damage at all.
You are much more forgiving toward Hamas and Hezbollah, actual terrorists who target random civilians.
By the way, re "friend". If you are friends with a Hezbollah terrorists, you should keep better company. Sleep with dogs, wake up with fleas.

 

[Derec]

I do not recognize as a valid principle that a provocation justifies any form of retaliation however sadistic. Our international order cannot remain stable if it hands a blank check to any party that thinks "the other guy started it".

Targeting Hezbollah terrorists is hardly "sadistic".
Again, note that you reserve such adjectives for Israel only, when they actually apply to the other side, which you always give a pass to.

 

[Derec]

Settlements not an issue? Un fucking believable if you actually believe that.

The 2005 disengagement from Gaza proves it. Israel dismantled all the settlements and withdrew soldiers. It did not pacify Gaza; quite the contrary.

Israel was bull on seized Arab lands in the first place.

Bullshit. Israel gave back much land for peace, including the entire Sinai peninsula.

The Israel propaganda narrative over here for decades has been the only reason they stack us is because we are Jews.

Is this also the reason why you are so adamantly opposed to Israel?

Muslims will differentiate between Jews and Jewish Zionists, much as we differentiate between Mulls and Islamists.

Zionism just means wanting a Jewish homeland. Why is that so wrong? There are a dozen Arab states, even more Muslim ones, but a single Jewish state is an abomination? Why, other than rank antisemitism?

Jimmy Carter who brokered the Camp David Accords wrote that the settlements are the major impediment too peace.

The Camp David Accords were one of the few successes in his presidency. Unfortunately, he went off the rails in his advocacy.
Again, look at the Gaza disengagement.
And note also that Judea and Samaria (aka West Bank) are a disputed territory. There is a lot of Jewish history there. The final status should be based on negotiations, not one-sided condemnation of Israel. But Palestinians must abandon maximalist positions like taking control of old Jerusalem or the bogus "right of return".

 

[Derec]

Did Israel put together a large number of bombs in a foreign country?
For any other group it would be called out as international terrorism.

It depends what the targets of those bombs are. The targets are combatants, who are involved in incessantly attacking Israel for almost a year.
No other country would be accused of "terrorism" for going after those attacking it with indiscriminate rocket attacks.
Lebanon complaining that these attacks violated its sovereignty is quite rich, given that they allowed Hezbollah to attack Israel from its territory. What about Israeli sovereignty? Do you really believe Israel should have no right to defend itself from this aggression?