How do we know what Jesus said when no one was there, anyway?

[bilby]

*facepalm*
I thought someone would go there. But not you.

...I never said 'solely'.

But rather than research Hebrew descendancy laws, I'll concede that there is indeed no scripture claiming that Mary can't be considered a descendant of David. Fine.

Hey, it's a debate about strict literal contradictions not historical likelihood.
I'll grant some wiggle room to folks (like you) who admit that the bible doesn't strictly say paternal descent or biological dad. But I won't allow asymmetric rules of engagement for the bible errancy crowd who quibble over the sort of stuff you see at Iron Chariots or Skeptics Annotated Bible.

Of course, if we're going to reward 'bonus points' for concepts that aren't in the Bible, then I guess we'll have to stop talking about...

Trinity
Rapture
Second Coming
Original Sin
Omniscience
Omnipresence
Supernatural
Transcendence
Afterlife
Deity
Divinity
Theology
Monotheism
Missionary
Immaculate Conception
Christmas
Christianity
Evangelical
Fundamentalist
Methodist
Catholic
Pope
Cardinal
Catechism
Purgatory
Penance
Transubstantiation
Excommunication
Dogma
Chastity
Unpardonable Sin
Infallibility
Inerrancy
Incarnation
Epiphany
Sermon
Eucharist
the Lord's Prayer
Good Friday
Doubting Thomas
Advent
Sunday School
Dead Sea
Golden Rule
Moral
Morality
Ethics
Patriotism
Education
Atheism
Apostasy
Conservative (Liberal is in)
Capital Punishment
Monogamy
Abortion
Pornography
Homosexual
Lesbian
Fairness
Logic
Republic
Democracy
Capitalism
Funeral
Decalogue
or Bible

Touché
But you prove a useful point about how the exact same ambiguity that bible skeptics exploit to claim there's an alleged 'contradiction' can just as easily be used (by me) to harmonise the texts.

Only if you accept that the text is ambiguous to begin with.

In which case, it's not something you can rely upon for anything.

'The Bible doesn't contain any contradictions because it doesn't say anything definite at all' is a reasonable position, but not one that leaves the Bible as a document of even the slightest value.

Spike Milligan's 'I'm walking backwards for Christmas' doesn't contain any contradictions, because it's nonsense.

Are you seriously arguing that the Bible contains no contradictions on the same basis?

 

[WAB]

Is it your position that Joseph was the adopted son of two gay men?



I never said 'solely'.

But rather than research Hebrew descendancy laws, I'll concede that there is indeed no scripture claiming that Mary can't be considered a descendant of David. Fine.

Of course, if we're going to reward 'bonus points' for concepts that aren't in the Bible, then I guess we'll have to stop talking about...

Trinity
Rapture
Second Coming
Original Sin
Omniscience
Omnipresence
Supernatural
Transcendence
Afterlife
Deity
Divinity
Theology
Monotheism
Missionary
Immaculate Conception
Christmas
Christianity
Evangelical
Fundamentalist
Methodist
Catholic
Pope
Cardinal
Catechism
Purgatory
Penance
Transubstantiation
Excommunication
Dogma
Chastity
Unpardonable Sin
Infallibility
Inerrancy
Incarnation
Epiphany
Sermon
Eucharist
the Lord's Prayer
Good Friday
Doubting Thomas
Advent
Sunday School
Dead Sea
Golden Rule
Moral
Morality
Ethics
Patriotism
Education
Atheism
Apostasy
Conservative (Liberal is in)
Capital Punishment
Monogamy
Abortion
Pornography
Homosexual
Lesbian
Fairness
Logic
Republic
Democracy
Capitalism
Funeral
Decalogue
or Bible

I've taken the liberty to bold the terms/words that actually are touched on and dealt with, in the Bible, if not with those terms (English).

Lion, bilby, James, et al: Have you read the New Testament, all the way through, in at least two translations? I have.

How about the Old Testament? I admit, I am missing big bits, mainly from all the begats in Numbers, and a big chunk going from the Pentateuch onward, especially all that about Joshua, Elijah, Jerico, etc. I ploughed through the major prophets in Black Letter, available at the King James Bible website. Oy, that was a task.

I have also read the first five books of the OT in the Tanakh, which is much clearer, not to mention funnier, than the rather cold, but beautiful, KJV. When I say funny, you can actually read & hear Moses & God talking: it goes something like this:

God: I want you to do a job for me, Moses
Moses: Why me, LORD, what with my broken teeth? I can hardly talk...
God: Listen. I put the words in your mouth. You go to Pharoah, you do your schtick, and I put the words in your mouth. It's a piece of cake.
Moses: How about my brother? He speaks well. And his teeth are okay, LORD...
God: Listen. Have some faith, Moses. Couldn't hurt? Right? Or if I am wrong, why?
Moses: Oh alright.
God: Incidentally, and I mention this only in passing, you're gonna part the Red Sea, and free the Hebrew slaves, and it's gonna be a piece of cake. Well, not for those Egyptians, of course. But for you, Moses. After that, however, you got 40 years desert travel, lots of pain and suffering. But, I got it all worked out. Trust me, Moses, like your ancestor Abraham when I did the thing with the knife. Oy. That was close.
​

 

[bilby]

Is it your position that Joseph was the adopted son of two gay men?



I never said 'solely'.

But rather than research Hebrew descendancy laws, I'll concede that there is indeed no scripture claiming that Mary can't be considered a descendant of David. Fine.

Of course, if we're going to reward 'bonus points' for concepts that aren't in the Bible, then I guess we'll have to stop talking about...

Trinity
Rapture
Second Coming
Original Sin
Omniscience
Omnipresence
Supernatural
Transcendence
Afterlife
Deity
Divinity
Theology
Monotheism
Missionary
Immaculate Conception
Christmas
Christianity
Evangelical
Fundamentalist
Methodist
Catholic
Pope
Cardinal
Catechism
Purgatory
Penance
Transubstantiation
Excommunication
Dogma
Chastity
Unpardonable Sin
Infallibility
Inerrancy
Incarnation
Epiphany
Sermon
Eucharist
the Lord's Prayer
Good Friday
Doubting Thomas
Advent
Sunday School
Dead Sea
Golden Rule
Moral
Morality
Ethics
Patriotism
Education
Atheism
Apostasy
Conservative (Liberal is in)
Capital Punishment
Monogamy
Abortion
Pornography
Homosexual
Lesbian
Fairness
Logic
Republic
Democracy
Capitalism
Funeral
Decalogue
or Bible

I've taken the liberty to bold the terms/words that actually are touched on and dealt with, in the Bible, if not with those terms (English).

Lion, bilby, James, et al: Have you read the New Testament, all the way through, in at least two translations? I have.

How about the Old Testament? I admit, I am missing big bits, mainly from all the begats in Numbers, and a big chunk going from the Pentateuch onward, especially all that about Joshua, Elijah, Jerico, etc. I ploughed through the major prophets in Black Letter, available at the King James Bible website. Oy, that was a task.

I have also read the first five books of the OT in the Tanakh, which is much clearer, not to mention funnier, than the rather cold, but beautiful, KJV. When I say funny, you can actually read & hear Moses & God talking: it goes something like this:

God: I want you to do a job for me, Moses
Moses: Why me, LORD, what with my broken teeth? I can hardly talk...
God: Listen. I put the words in your mouth. You go to Pharoah, you do your schtick, and I put the words in your mouth. It's a piece of cake.
Moses: How about my brother? He speaks well. And his teeth are okay, LORD...
God: Listen. Have some faith, Moses. Couldn't hurt? Right? Or if I am wrong, why?
Moses: Oh alright.
God: Incidentally, and I mention this only in passing, you're gonna part the Red Sea, and free the Hebrew slaves, and it's gonna be a piece of cake. Well, not for those Egyptians, of course. But for you, Moses. After that, however, you got 40 years desert travel, lots of pain and suffering. But, I got it all worked out. Trust me, Moses, like your ancestor Abraham when I did the thing with the knife. Oy. That was close.
​

That Jehovah. I mean, he's no Mel Brooks, but then, who is, right?

 

[Lion IRC]

...Only if you accept that the text is ambiguous to begin with.

That's what I've been saying to bible errancy skeptics for ~ 20 years

...In which case, it's not something you can rely upon for anything.

I'm not the one making the claim that scarlet and crimson are contradictory descriptions of Jesus' robe. Or that the women at the foot of the Cross were only allowed to be either near or afar otherwise the bible contradicts itself.

...'The Bible doesn't contain any contradictions because it doesn't say anything definite at all' is a reasonable position, but not one that leaves the Bible as a document of even the slightest value.

The bible skeptics don't quibble about the unambiguous declaratory statements in the bible. They don't deny that the bible has a good many emphatic positions. They just haggle about the grey areas. But so what? The Jews (and Christians) have been doing that for centuries.

...Are you seriously arguing that the Bible contains no contradictions on the same basis?

Yes. I'm on record as saying I would renounce biblical monotheism if I thought that were the case.

 

[bilby]

That's what I've been saying to bible errancy skeptics for ~ 20 years



I'm not the one making the claim that scarlet and crimson are contradictory descriptions of Jesus' robe. Or that the women at the foot of the Cross were only allowed to be either near or afar otherwise the bible contradicts itself.

...'The Bible doesn't contain any contradictions because it doesn't say anything definite at all' is a reasonable position, but not one that leaves the Bible as a document of even the slightest value.

The bible skeptics don't quibble about the unambiguous declaratory statements in the bible. They don't deny that the bible has a good many emphatic positions. They just haggle about the grey areas. But so what? The Jews (and Christians) have been doing that for centuries.

...Are you seriously arguing that the Bible contains no contradictions on the same basis?

Yes. I'm on record as saying I would renounce biblical monotheism if I thought that were the case.

Then you should.

But you won't, because you would rather have your irrational beliefs than be honest with yourself.

You are in good company. It's been the majority position for centuries. Not right, true, or respectable; but the majority. So that's nice for you.

 

[Lion IRC]

BBL after Handmaids Tale

 

[WAB]

BBL after Handmaids Tale

Ouch. Good film, at least in the strictly technical sense.

Horrible topic. Largely a waste of film and good talent.

Sickening what some men will do to women. No?

Or do you condone this kind of behavior, because it is condoned in the Bible?

IMhO, any man who could treat women in such a way, should have his willy chopped off.

Howzabout good old Solomon and his 700 concubines? Sick.

And let's not get into the Mormons, Young and followers. Sick, perverted men.

 

[Lion IRC]

Kit and Fiona just got lesbian 'married'.

It was Janine's idea.

 

[WAB]

Kit and Fiona just got lesbian 'married'.

It was Janine's idea.

It gets to be a smaller & smaller world.

My ex-wife's daughter (by her 2nd husband) is named Fiona. She's 8 now, and absolutely brilliant.

She was named after the female ogre in Shrek.

She is totally, fluidly bilingual (English/Spanish), and her English vocabulary is better than most Mercans I know. I can't rate her Spanish.

She can do back wrenching yoga poses, while texting, in two languages, with one hand.

God bless her!

ETA: I am gonna be the Mighty John Keats for a few days. My avatar is a death-mask of the great genius, dead from TB at 25. RIP, Junketts, 1795 - 1821.

Born the son of a livery stable keeper, later inn manager. Hope certain inside people take note.

Class? Old world nonsense. No human being, ever, was born into a class.

 

[ronburgundy]

According to atheism, Hitler can commit suicide and his (unpunished) fate is identical to the millions of innocent people whose short lives were full of suffering Hitler inflicted.

Exactly, therefore atheism is what promotes people to act to actually bring about justice in the world, while theists wait for God to something about it in the afterlife. That is why the modern secular world, despite all current issues, a far more civil and moral place than it was under centuries of theistic rule, and why the differences in levels of inhumanity and injustice among current societies is strongly predicted by whether they continue to be governed by theistic rule, and why within they USA, those states that act most inhumanely and unjustly to their citizens are those most dominated by devout theists.
Theism predicts inhumanity and injustice across time, between nations, between states within a nation, and between individual people.

 

[Lion IRC]

"...atheism is what promotes people to act to actually bring about justice"

I always thought atheism was akin to the colour of baldness or non-stamp collecting etc etc.
You make it sound noble. The Tao?

Problem is, lots of wars are fought over competing definitions of "justice".

 

[whollygoats]

"...atheism is what promotes people to act to actually bring about justice"

I always thought atheism was akin to the colour of baldness or non-stamp collecting etc etc.
You make it sound noble. The Tao?

Problem is, lots of wars are fought over competing definitions of "justice".

Everything is in interpretation. Some interpret it to be "just us".

 

[Jobar]

"...atheism is what promotes people to act to actually bring about justice"

I always thought atheism was akin to the colour of baldness or non-stamp collecting etc etc.
You make it sound noble. The Tao?

Problem is, lots of wars are fought over competing definitions of "justice".

As Ingersoll put it- "If abuses are destroyed, man must destroy them. If slaves are freed, man must free them. If new truths are discovered, man must discover them. If the naked are clothed; if the hungry are fed; if justice is done; if labor is rewarded; if superstition is driven from the mind; if the defenseless are protected and if the right finally triumphs, all must be the work of man. The grand victories of the future must be won by man, and by man alone."

Atheism only makes us realize that there are no other beings to do these things for us.

 

[Rhea]

He did stop it before but.... spared Noah! He could have erased that lot and create His intended paradise again without those of the old infected world .i.e. Start a fresh! I suppose He didn't because He loves mankind?

Hang on. Did you really just say that God could have started fresh with A PARADISE OF NO SUFFERING, that all he had to do (after having murdered all of mankind by drowning, including screaming crying little children and fetuses in the womb, not to mention puppies and kittens) was to not grant pregnancies to any of Noah’s daughters-in-law, and every being born after that would never suffer... but instead, because he “loved” the people he had just murdered (included, as we know, all the fetuses in the womb) he let Ghengis Khan, Pontius Pilot, Torquemeda, Hitler and Pol Pot all happen?


This makes sense to you?

He already “started over”. ALl he had to do was deliver delusions to the ark people, let them die of what seemed like old age in their minds. (Or, D’oh! Just rapture them, ja?)

And then start humanity again, this time having child-proofed Eden against the snake that he himself made and put there.

He could have made everyone happy, but didn’t bother?

You people are so weird.

 

[Rhea]

You ignore the fact that the bible gives a description of the attributes of both jealousy and love, both what they are and what they are not.....hence your rationale does not work;

Who is God jealous of? Its not mankind obviously so how evil is it , in context?
(Satan is jealous of mankind which sounds more non-loving (to us) as the theology follows)

No, Satan is _envious_ of mankind.
God is _jealous_ of his role as top dog.

 

[Rhea]

The clue would therefore be "seed" which is clearly different from the non-biological custom of "Jewish law" . Through the mother "genetically" which begs the question: Why at all, have the whole concept narrative that ; Jesus is the begotten Son of God and not Joseph yet there is the importance of the "seed" of David?

Indeed. It’s a.... contradiction

And is there an Israel today ? The Babylonians were exiled which also was prophesied by Jeremiah.

Know their stuff indeed but varied amongst the competing Jewish sects. Priests /Maccabees/ Pharisees / Rabbis etc..
But is it not possible to "yet happen"? No precised dates IOW.

Sweet Merciful Crap. They just moved the embassy securing Israel’s rulership over Jerusalem. Trump is the Messiah!?

 

[Rhea]

So back to the orginal post:

Lion says, the way the private conversations of Jesus got into the bible was because some author heard a voice in his head who told him so.


Mkay. So...

Can you now please spell out EXACTLY how a person determines which head voices are canon and which are not? Surely there is a formula for this, so that true believers can be certain that the thing they believe is from the, what was it; the paraclete - the comforter/advisor. I can see why it’s comforting to have an advisor in your head. Bu please do tell me, are ALL voices in the head the paraclete, or is there a formula to tell which ones are valid. I assume you know this EXACTLY, since you have determined that these conversational recordings for quality assurance are FACT to you.

(Also, why did the paraclete go silent after such a brief appearance? Got tired of comforting? Fired from the advisor role?)

 

[Kharakov]

So back to the orginal post:

Lion says, the way the private conversations of Jesus got into the bible was because some author heard a voice in his head who told him so.

He's talking to neurotransmitters.

 

[bilby]

So back to the orginal post:

Lion says, the way the private conversations of Jesus got into the bible was because some author heard a voice in his head who told him so.


Mkay. So...

Can you now please spell out EXACTLY how a person determines which head voices are canon and which are not? Surely there is a formula for this, so that true believers can be certain that the thing they believe is from the, what was it; the paraclete - the comforter/advisor. I can see why it’s comforting to have an advisor in your head. Bu please do tell me, are ALL voices in the head the paraclete, or is there a formula to tell which ones are valid. I assume you know this EXACTLY, since you have determined that these conversational recordings for quality assurance are FACT to you.

(Also, why did the paraclete go silent after such a brief appearance? Got tired of comforting? Fired from the advisor role?)

The only discernible difference between 'spirit parasite paraclete' and schizophrenia is that the former occurred before medicine had advanced sufficiently to diagnose the latter.

- - - Updated - - -

So back to the orginal post:

Lion says, the way the private conversations of Jesus got into the bible was because some author heard a voice in his head who told him so.

He's talking to neurotransmitters.

Were they GABA-ling?

 

[Learner]

Hang on. Did you really just say that God could have started fresh with A PARADISE OF NO SUFFERING,

What I was saying is HE could have wiped the lot of us out of existence and start again.... basically.

that all he had to do (after having murdered all of mankind by drowning, including screaming crying little children and fetuses in the womb, not to mention puppies and kittens) was to not grant pregnancies to any of Noah’s daughters-in-law, and every being born after that would never suffer... but instead, because he “loved” the people he had just murdered (included, as we know, all the fetuses in the womb) he let Ghengis Khan, Pontius Pilot, Torquemeda, Hitler and Pol Pot all happen?


This makes sense to you?

I would have put it differently but no, not quite (assuming I'm agreeing with you also on your version - not making sense). But just to say without straying off subject ; I see you're pro-life i.e. "fetuses in womb". Some things at least where we/theists can agree.

Ghengis Khan to Pol Pot is a world without God... "by choice" - Its Satan's world (if you didn't know that was in the bible). Commandements (from early as Noahs covenants mentions) or by our own way etc...

He already “started over”. ALl he had to do was deliver delusions to the ark people, let them die of what seemed like old age in their minds. (Or, D’oh! Just rapture them, ja?)

And then start humanity again, this time having child-proofed Eden against the snake that he himself made and put there.

He could have made everyone happy, but didn’t bother?

Everyone happy sounds like erm.. Heaven . Or a Heaven on earth. HE is (in a manner of speaking) bothering to...

You people are so weird.

I've seen weirder on youtube and I don't think theists are in the top three. I wouldn't don't we are slowly moving down the wierd charts.