How should west respond to potential (likely) Russian invasion of Ukraine?

[Loren Pechtel]

Damn!!! In the news the Ukrainians have taken back a city.

Makariv. A small town. According to google, its pop. was less than 10k.

And it seems that this is the second time it's been reported to be taken back from Russia. I guess Ukraine has to find its small victories where it can.

I don't think the Ukrainians are really attempting to take anything. Rather, they are striking from the shadows and running away. It's basically impossible to take territory that way, but what happens when the occupiers get cut off? They'll go clear the supply line, abandoning the objective temporarily.

 

[TV and credit cards]

Voznesensk

"It was a colossal effort by the whole town," said Alexander, a local shopkeeper who filmed himself on the frontlines with an AK47, screaming "Come on my little beauties!" as another volunteer fired a rocket-propelled grenade towards Russian positions.

 

[Elixir]

Looks like barbos got pulled from the cyber front. Gone missing for the last week or so as far as I can tell.
Hope we didn't get him in trouble.

 

[TomC]

Looks like barbos got pulled from the cyber front. Gone missing for the last week or so as far as I can tell.
Hope we didn't get him in trouble.

So do I.
Irritating as barbos' opinions and posting style are, I wouldn't wish that crap on my worst enemy.
Tom

 

[Elixir]

Looks like barbos got pulled from the cyber front. Gone missing for the last week or so as far as I can tell.
Hope we didn't get him in trouble.

So do I.
Irritating as barbos' opinions and posting style are, I wouldn't wish that crap on my worst enemy.
Tom

Right? I never felt he was a witting enemy, just a tool of the State. How willing, I don't know. But he has a sense of humor and could even be self deprecating, and no denying he brought a POV that few if any of the rest of the crew around here puts forth.
Shitttt.... didn't mean to lapse from the present to the past tense like that, but it reflects my fear.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

Looks like barbos got pulled from the cyber front. Gone missing for the last week or so as far as I can tell.
Hope we didn't get him in trouble.

If anything barbos got himself in trouble. I got the feeling he wanted to have it both ways. In one exchange he said he preferred American freedoms to his Russian situation. But then he defends his captors and oppressors. Maybe a little Stockholm Syndrome at work there. He seemed a bit like Putin himself, wanting freedom for himself but begrudging it to others. He said he lived in the U.S. at one time but the drift I got was that he didn't appreciate, could not appreciate what he was denied.

Yes, he could certainly be witty and entertaining.

I don't equate barbos and Putin for a minute, however, just to be accurate. Putin obviously fears democracy, freedom of choice, individual freedoms. Putin fears these things everyday because they will be his end and is why he cannot allow Ukraine to succeed as a democracy. Our friend barbos has no such fears and would be fine in a free society.

 

[steve_bank]

Maybe he is in jail.

 

[TomC]

Looks like barbos got pulled from the cyber front. Gone missing for the last week or so as far as I can tell.
Hope we didn't get him in trouble.

If anything barbos got himself in trouble. I got the feeling he wanted to have it both ways. In one exchange he said he preferred American freedoms to his Russian situation. But then he defends his captors and oppressors. Maybe a little Stockholm Syndrome at work there. He seemed a bit like Putin himself, wanting freedom for himself but begrudging it to others. He said he lived in the U.S. at one time but the drift I got was that he didn't appreciate, could not appreciate what he was denied.

Yes, he could certainly be witty and entertaining.

He's hardly the only human like that.

Back in 02-03, my dad and I "disagreed" about the U.S. invasion of Iraq. He believed what he heard on the news(Fox).

It got to the point where if my mom heard the word "Iraq" come out of either of our mouths she would scream.
Scream.
"STOP IT. BOTH OF YOU! JUST STOP IT! NOW!"

Tom

 

[Jason Harvestdancer]

Now that it has escalated into actual combat, I still think this is not an issue the US should be involved in. No, that doesn't mean I support the either side in this conflict.

So your libertarian principles don't apply to other countries?

The US government has neither the authority nor the right to get involved. To say that the US has either the authority or the right is to say the US should be the world's dictator. Somehow you have come to the conclusion that supporting US world dictatorship is somehow a libertarian principle. However, since you are so deeply concerned I promise I will raise money for you so that you can go to Ukraine to do your part. Does that sound good to you?

 

[crazyfingers]

Now that it has escalated into actual combat, I still think this is not an issue the US should be involved in. No, that doesn't mean I support the either side in this conflict.

So your libertarian principles don't apply to other countries?

The US government has neither the authority nor the right to get involved. To say that the US has either the authority or the right is to say the US should be the world's dictator. Somehow you have come to the conclusion that supporting US world dictatorship is somehow a libertarian principle. However, since you are so deeply concerned I promise I will raise money for you so that you can go to Ukraine to do your part. Does that sound good to you?

You are forgetting that the legitimate Ukraine government has asked for help. To say that the US has neither the authority or right to get involved is pretty stupid in that context.

 

[Jayjay]

Looks like barbos got pulled from the cyber front. Gone missing for the last week or so as far as I can tell.
Hope we didn't get him in trouble.

If Putin were to find out what barbos was up to in this forum, he'd probably give him a medal. Besides, he is tech savvy enough to use a VPN and probably figured that when his country's economy is spiraling down the drain, there are more important things than arguing politics on some obscure internet forum. I'm not at all worried for his safety, but I respect his decision to take a break.

 

[ZiprHead]

Now that it has escalated into actual combat, I still think this is not an issue the US should be involved in. No, that doesn't mean I support the either side in this conflict.

So your libertarian principles don't apply to other countries?

The US government has neither the authority nor the right to get involved. To say that the US has either the authority or the right is to say the US should be the world's dictator. Somehow you have come to the conclusion that supporting US world dictatorship is somehow a libertarian principle. However, since you are so deeply concerned I promise I will raise money for you so that you can go to Ukraine to do your part. Does that sound good to you?

The US agreed to aid Ukraine in exchange for giving up its nukes. Not only does that give the US the right, it requires the duty. I'm sure as a Libertarian you understand how freely exercised agreements work.

 

[Jason Harvestdancer]

Now that it has escalated into actual combat, I still think this is not an issue the US should be involved in. No, that doesn't mean I support the either side in this conflict.

So your libertarian principles don't apply to other countries?

The US government has neither the authority nor the right to get involved. To say that the US has either the authority or the right is to say the US should be the world's dictator. Somehow you have come to the conclusion that supporting US world dictatorship is somehow a libertarian principle. However, since you are so deeply concerned I promise I will raise money for you so that you can go to Ukraine to do your part. Does that sound good to you?

You are forgetting that the legitimate Ukraine government has asked for help. To say that the US has neither the authority or right to get involved is pretty stupid in that context.

Let me know when they start paying taxes.

Now that it has escalated into actual combat, I still think this is not an issue the US should be involved in. No, that doesn't mean I support the either side in this conflict.

So your libertarian principles don't apply to other countries?

The US government has neither the authority nor the right to get involved. To say that the US has either the authority or the right is to say the US should be the world's dictator. Somehow you have come to the conclusion that supporting US world dictatorship is somehow a libertarian principle. However, since you are so deeply concerned I promise I will raise money for you so that you can go to Ukraine to do your part. Does that sound good to you?

The US agreed to aid Ukraine in exchange for giving up its nukes. Not only does that give the US the right, it requires the duty. I'm sure as a Libertarian you understand how freely exercised agreements work.

But you aren't willing to go over there and do something about it yourself? You only want other people to bear the burden on this issue you feel so deeply about? And what the hell is a "freely exercised agreement" when it is a government agreement? The offer to get you a plane ticket is still on the table.

 

[crazyfingers]

 

[Harry Bosch]

Now that it has escalated into actual combat, I still think this is not an issue the US should be involved in. No, that doesn't mean I support the either side in this conflict.

So your libertarian principles don't apply to other countries?

The US government has neither the authority nor the right to get involved. To say that the US has either the authority or the right is to say the US should be the world's dictator. Somehow you have come to the conclusion that supporting US world dictatorship is somehow a libertarian principle. However, since you are so deeply concerned I promise I will raise money for you so that you can go to Ukraine to do your part. Does that sound good to you?

So, you think that we should allow the Russians to kill all the people of Ukraine? Is that the Libertarian policy that you follow? Then let them wipe out Poland next? How about all of eastern Europe? Libertarians are pretty clear on the subject: "Libertarians condemn any country invading the borders of another. Every country has their right to autonomy." That's from their platform.

 

[Jason Harvestdancer]

So you think that we should have the US be the ultimate authority around the world, bombing anyone who steps out of line even a little, deciding for all other countries? Killing civilians even in countries that couldn't pose a threat to us? Is that the conservative policy that you follow?

Even though I think what Russia is doing is morally wrong, that doesn't mean it is the job of the US government to do anything. The alternative is even more anti-libertarian. You cannot create utopia, and the attempts always end in tyranny and death.

 

[Harry Bosch]

So you think that we should have the US be the ultimate authority around the world, bombing anyone who steps out of line even a little, deciding for all other countries? Killing civilians even in countries that couldn't pose a threat to us? Is that the conservative policy that you follow?

Dammit it! You got me! All right, I'm convinced. Let's lead the call to recall all US bombers attacking Russian positions. And let's do it tout suite! (BTW: I'm not a conservative).

 

[Jason Harvestdancer]

As much as you want the US to be the world dictator, you could have fooled me about not being a Bush-Cheney loving conservative.


The Neocon

Oh well I'm the type of guy who will never settle down
Where there's countries to attack you know that I'm around
I shoot 'em and I bomb 'em 'cause to me they're all the same
I occupy and drone 'em and don't even know their name
They call me a neocon, yeah a neocon
Troops roam around around around

Oh well there's Syria on my left and Iraq on my right
And Iran is the country that I'll attack tonight
On election day when the parties switch
I play for both sides there isn't any hitch
Cause I'm the neocon yeah the neocon
Troops roam around around around

Oh well troops roam from land to land
They go and I don't care
If there's oil under that sand
You know the troops will soon have a reason to go there

I'm the type of guy that likes to roam around
I'm never in one place my policies are unsound
I've never worn a uniform or carried a gun, yeah
It's the little people who can have all the fun
Yeah I'm the neocon, yeah the neocon
Troops roam around around around, let's go

Oh yeah I'm the type of guy that likes to roam around
I'm never in one place my policies are unsound
I've never worn a uniform or carried a gun, yeah
It's the little people who can have all the fun
'Cause I'm a neocon, yeah a neocon
Troops roam around around around around around
'Cause I'm a neocon, yeah a neocon
Troops roam around around around around around

 

[steve_bank]

The US government has neither the authority nor the right to get involved. To say that the US has either the authority or the right is to say the US should be the world's dictator. Somehow you have come to the conclusion that supporting US world dictatorship is somehow a libertarian principle. However, since you are so deeply concerned I promise I will raise money for you so that you can go to Ukraine to do your part. Does that sound good to you?

Its a good thing France did not think that way in our revolution. Isolationist nonsense.

Lafayette.

Steuben is credited with turning the Americans into an army.

Baron Friedrich von Steuben, a Prussian military man hired by George Washington to whip the Continental Army into shape during the darkest days of the Revolutionary War, is known for his bravery and the discipline and grit he brought to the American troops.Jun 14, 201

 

[Jason Harvestdancer]

Isolationism says you don't even trade with other countries, you cut yourself off entirely. That isn't my position.

Nice attempt at a false dichotomy.