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How should west respond to potential (likely) Russian invasion of Ukraine?

Jason Harvestdancer said:
So you think that we should have the US be the ultimate authority around the world, bombing anyone who steps out of line even a little, deciding for all other countries? Killing civilians even in countries that couldn't pose a threat to us? Is that the conservative policy that you follow?
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Strawman much?
 
Jason Harvestdancer said:
Isolationism says you don't even trade with other countries, you cut yourself off entirely. That isn't my position.

Nice attempt at a false dichotomy.
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FDR had to deal with isolationism. Joe Kennedy as ambassador to England said let the Europeans fight it out and then we will deal with whoever won .If it is Hitler so be it. In hind sight that would have been disastrous for us.

FDR managed to get Lend Lease passed to provide aid to the Brits. Churchill's speech in the USA is credited with turning the isolationist tide.

If the EU and NATO fail and Russia-China become dominate what do you think would happen to our economy and trade?

Post war we go To see the consequnces of that just look at Russia and Chinese govt today.

It is easy to criticize, harder to make decisions in the moment looking into an an uncertain future.

Our revolution would have failed without foreign assistance.
 
Scene: A woman cries out pleading for help as a rapist tears her clothes off.

Jason: "As a libertarian, I can't help her because that would make me the 'ultimate authority' around the neighborhood and what a slippery slope that is. I don't want to be a dictator.":rolleyes:
 
SLD said:
steve_bank said:
Maybe he is in jail.
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Maybe we convinced him that he was wrong and he no longer supports the war so he went out and protested the war and got arrested.
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We can only speculate, because anything could have happened to him, including that he is simply lurking here in stealth mode. Maybe he will suddenly reappear one day. I rather suspect that his access to this site got cut off by loss of his VPN. Russia has been squeezing down access to internet connections, and that seems especially important to Putin now, as western memes tend to leak through and go viral inside of Russia. I really can't imagine that Russian censors care much about this rather small online community. They are more interested in mass and encrypted platforms like Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, Telegram, WhatsApp, Protonmail, etc.
 
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Jason Harvestdancer said:
Maybe you should also say that to Harry Bosch, steve_bank, and ZiprHead when they describe "my" position.
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I don't want to strawman your position. But I'll double down: I think that it is the moral requirement to help Ukraine with everything short of starting WW3. Ukraine was invaded for no valid reason (their government are not Nazis). The Russians invaded and they are killing everything that moves. A neocon is one who advocates invading another country in order to push our values or goals. We're trying to help Ukraine survive. That's all. I understand the libertarian opposition to NATO. This needs to be said a 1,000 times: Ukraine is not in NATO. There was never a chance that it would be able to join NATO. How is helping friends bad in the libertarian movement?
 
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Jason Harvestdancer said:
So you think that we should have the US be the ultimate authority around the world, bombing anyone who steps out of line even a little, deciding for all other countries? Killing civilians even in countries that couldn't pose a threat to us? Is that the conservative policy that you follow?

Even though I think what Russia is doing is morally wrong, that doesn't mean it is the job of the US government to do anything. The alternative is even more anti-libertarian. You cannot create utopia, and the attempts always end in tyranny and death.
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Biden's strategy is indeed correct, and I am glad to find that you agree with him on at least this point. He is joining the majority of the international community in supporting Ukraine without actually using force to intervene in the affair. He has avoided even being so presumptuous as to visit in Kyiv, which would have really been ill-timed: it would have been somewhat appropriate if he had happened to be over there when the other leaders in the region dropped in for a visit, and he could have gone as part of a larger group, but dropping in on his own would have implied that Ukraine was a vassal-state of the US, which is a narrative that we are actually trying to counter.

I do support Ukraine, but that is only because I support anarchists everywhere. "Cossack" means only someone who is free. "Cossack" means someone that wants to live in a wild country full of opportunity. I realize that the term is outdated, but it would not be if Sophie...excuse me, Elizabeth...had not destroyed the Cossack Hetmantate, which was actually a very good government that was attempting to follow a similar path to that of Sweden under Ivan Mazepa's leadership.

However, no nation has ever been an island. During the Coalition Wars, those countries were only able to resist the imperialism of Napoleon because they united in coalitions to stop him. If they had followed isolationist policies and said, "Another country's quarrel is not my affair," then that would have suited Napoleon perfectly well. He would have merely continued his policy of conquering them one by one, and he would have been very glad toward them that they had so nicely let him set himself up as a despot.

I am very much a supporter of John Rawls' views on Law of the Peoples.

Mind you, Napoleon was a far-left leader, but his authoritarianism was a problem.
 
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Jason Harvestdancer said:
Maybe you should also say that to Harry Bosch, steve_bank, and ZiprHead when they describe "my" position.
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You have no position. That's the point. You enjoy your democratic freedoms but begrudge them to others. You have a lucrative career awaiting in Russia. Get thee to Moscow! :)

Democracy is the world's policeman. If you believe otherwise please make your point so people can understand. If you do not understand how this applies to Ukraine please educate yourself.
 
If there had been any justice in the world, them Catherine would have never succeeded at destroying the Cossack Hetmantate, and the Circassians would not have begun abandoning their native faith in order to seek the unreliable support of the Ottomans. The Cossacks would have built in Kyiv a nation more fine even than Sweden, and the Sochi would be the capital of the world's most ancient pagan nation.

It may be wrong for the US to play world police, but that is all that Russia does. I am glad my current government has shown more restraint than in the past, but the problem is that our nation is not the only nation that has ever behaved like a bully. Isolationism is not the answer for imperialism. Who is going to police the police?

International unity on basic principles must be a part of any system we try to use to contain these sorts of conflicts.
 
Jason Harvestdancer said:
As much as you want the US to be the world dictator, you could have fooled me about not being a Bush-Cheney loving conservative.
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The interesting part is that there is near global consensus on Ukraine. This isn't the US going rogue like the Neocons did, after squandering a large coalition in Afghanistan for Poland and the UK in Iraq. Even China isn't in lock step with Russia on this.

And to be clear, Zelenskyy doesn't think the US or West is doing anywhere near enough to defend them.
 
Jason Harvestdancer said:

ZiprHead said:
Jason Harvestdancer said:
ZiprHead said:
Jason Harvestdancer said:
Now that it has escalated into actual combat, I still think this is not an issue the US should be involved in. No, that doesn't mean I support the either side in this conflict.
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So your libertarian principles don't apply to other countries?
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The US government has neither the authority nor the right to get involved. To say that the US has either the authority or the right is to say the US should be the world's dictator. Somehow you have come to the conclusion that supporting US world dictatorship is somehow a libertarian principle. However, since you are so deeply concerned I promise I will raise money for you so that you can go to Ukraine to do your part. Does that sound good to you?
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The US agreed to aid Ukraine in exchange for giving up its nukes. Not only does that give the US the right, it requires the duty. I'm sure as a Libertarian you understand how freely exercised agreements work.
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But you aren't willing to go over there and do something about it yourself? You only want other people to bear the burden on this issue you feel so deeply about? And what the hell is a "freely exercised agreement" when it is a government agreement? The offer to get you a plane ticket is still on the table.
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Wow, great deflection of the argument. I'm sure you know what a freely exercised agreement is no matter who makes it.
 
zorq said:
Scene: A woman cries out pleading for help as a rapist tears her clothes off.

Jason: "As a libertarian, I can't help her because that would make me the 'ultimate authority' around the neighborhood and what a slippery slope that is. I don't want to be a dictator.":rolleyes:
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Some good comments today.
 
Jason Harvestdancer said:
So you think that we should have the US be the ultimate authority around the world, bombing anyone who steps out of line even a little, deciding for all other countries? Killing civilians even in countries that couldn't pose a threat to us? Is that the conservative policy that you follow?
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You do realize it's Russia doing that in this case, right?
 
Back in te 70s after I got out of the Navy I drifted around dong odd jobs. I was a social dropout, couldn't tell you anything about what was going on.

In te end I decided you have to believe in something and you can not sit on the fence. I considersedpacifism but I cncluded that was a cop out, It is fine as a moral statement, but you exist as pacifist as long as the police is around to protect your safety.

It is easy to moralize and criticize. The presumption of arm chair moralists is that any point in time decisions can be made that guarantee a 'moral' result. The idea that all of humanity can be controlled systematcaly to be perfectly moral and just is fanatasy. That requires perfect humans which do not exist.

The future of wetern liberal democracy is in play right now. What dies that mean? free enterpreise, free speech, freeom of action, freedom of trave;.

China and Russia are antithetical to that, and they work to destabilze that in favor of authoritarianism.


Going way back on the forum I always ask the America bashers on what do you think your stability is based on? What makes yiu think next year will be the same? A practical system run bt real humans as an alternative?

I never get an answer.

End of flag waving.

I''d like to put a few thousand heavily armed Libertarians on an island with enough resources to survive, but requiring cooperation and organization.

I do not see how we can watch China and Russia and don't think we have to oppose them.

We dodged a bullet with Trump.
 
steve_bank said:
I''d like to put a few thousand heavily armed Libertarians on an island with enough resources to survive, but requiring cooperation and organization.
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I'd love to see that too. Put it on cable as a reality show to help fund the enterprise.

Until then you can play the original Bioshock, that is set in the remains of a 'libertarian free market paradise'
 
Elixir said:
marc said:
steve_bank said:
I''d like to put a few thousand heavily armed Libertarians on an island with enough resources to survive, but requiring cooperation and organization.
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I'd love to see that too. Put it on cable as a reality show to help fund the enterprise.
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That might help pay for burying the bodies...
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That sounds like a public health/community beautification project. In other words socialism!! Let the Free Market TMdecide who will bury them and who will pay them to do it.
 
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