How should west respond to potential (likely) Russian invasion of Ukraine?

[bilby]

How is helping friends bad in the libertarian movement?

"Helping anyone, ever, under any circumstances is bad, you filthy commie.

Unless it's me" - Ayn Rand (paraphrased).

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Isolationism says you don't even trade with other countries, you cut yourself off entirely. That isn't my position.

Of course not, that'd require you to actually take up a position. Instead you find it more amusing to mock other positions and refute responses by saying "That isn't my position."

 

[lpetrich]

Ah yes, WWII and FDR, both a direct result of the interventionism of Wilson in WWI. Good example.

Jason Harvestdancer, what would YOU have done?

Consider the sinking of the RMS Lusitania, one of the world's largest ocean liners. On 7 May 1915., that ship was sunk by a German submarine crew off the coast of Ireland. Of the 1,960 people aboard, 1,193 were killed and 761 survived.

A long-time controversy about this incident is whether or not that ship was involved in gun running, despite still being in civilian service.

President Woodrow Wilson kept the US out of war, however, arguing that the US was "too proud to fight".

Or consider the Zimmermann Telegram. On January 17, 1917, Arthur Zimmermann, a top-level civil servant in the German Foreign Office, sent a telegram to the German Ambassador to Mexico. The full text of it:

We intend to begin on the first of February unrestricted submarine warfare. We shall endeavor in spite of this to keep the United States of America neutral. In the event of this not succeeding, we make Mexico a proposal of alliance on the following basis: make war together, make peace together, generous financial support and an understanding on our part that Mexico is to reconquer the lost territory in Texas, New Mexico, and Arizona. The settlement in detail is left to you. You will inform the President of the above most secretly as soon as the outbreak of war with the United States of America is certain, and add the suggestion that he should, on his own initiative, invite Japan to immediate adherence and at the same time mediate between Japan and ourselves. Please call the President's attention to the fact that the ruthless employment of our submarines now offers the prospect of compelling England in a few months to make peace.

Signed, ZIMMERMANN

British Naval Intelligence codebreakers deciphered it and relayed its contents to US officials. They were outraged. A few months later, AZ himself stated that he indeed sent that telegram. Then President Wilson declared war on Germany, stating that US involvement was to "make the world safe for democracy".

 

[Elixir]

[thread drift] Were there any arms/guns found at the wreck site?

 

[ZiprHead]

 

[ZiprHead]

There is an estimated 10,000 Russian troops encircled. Maybe less than three days supplies left, if out of water, in particular.

The white area is apparently the entrapped Russian unit.

 

[bilby]

[thread drift] Were there any arms/guns found at the wreck site?

There was never any doubt or even secret regarding the presence of rifles and ammunition in the cargo on board Luisitania.

The Germans even took out advertisements in the New York newspapers before she sailed, warning people not to book passage on her, as they considered her a military target and would endeavour to sink her. Which they then did.

 

[crazyfingers]

There is an estimated 10,000 Russian troops encircled. Maybe less than three days supplies left, if out of water, in particular.

The white area is apparently the entrapped Russian unit.

View attachment 37858

I can't find anything in the news that resembles the first sentence. Is there a URL? The map also looks odd because the red has typically been the area where the Russians are. What's the orange and yellow? I hate when the media make maps or charts without proper legends.

 

[Jayjay]

If true, I hope as many as possible of those troops are captured alive. It's a good propaganda tool for Ukraine.

 

[Harry Bosch]

Pretty amazing prediction by recently passed Madeline Albright:

"Instead of paving Russia's path to greatness, invading Ukraine would ensure Mr. Putin's infamy by leaving his country diplomatically isolated, economically crippled and strategically vulnerable in the face of a stronger, more united Western alliance," Albright wrote in an essay in The New York Times on the eve of the war last month. "Ukraine is entitled to its sovereignty, no matter who its neighbors happen to be. In the modern era, great countries accept that, and so must Mr. Putin," Albright wrote. "That is the message undergirding recent Western diplomacy. It defines the difference between a world governed by the rule of law and one answerable to no rules at all."

Albright predicted Putin's strategic disaster in Ukraine | CNN Politics

Madeleine Albright died just as the murderous historic forces that she had spent her career trying to quell are raging in Europe again, unleashed by a nemesis, Vladimir Putin, who she had consistently warned was a grave threat to peace.

www.cnn.com

I prefer to live in a world governed by law.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

If true, I hope as many as possible of those troops are captured alive. It's a good propaganda tool for Ukraine.

I doubt Ukraine has what is needed to feed 10,000 POWs.

 

[Thomas II]

If true, I hope as many as possible of those troops are captured alive. It's a good propaganda tool for Ukraine.

I doubt Ukraine has what is needed to feed 10,000 POWs.

https://www.townandcountrymag.com/leisure/dining/a39265623/chef-jose-andres-refugees-ukraine-2022/

This is the guy to do it: Chef Jose Andres

 

[Jayjay]

If true, I hope as many as possible of those troops are captured alive. It's a good propaganda tool for Ukraine.

I doubt Ukraine has what is needed to feed 10,000 POWs.

Ukraine's options (assuming the news are true):

1. Let them escape, in which case Ukraine will probably have to fight at least some of the same people again elsewhere.
2. Kill them all, which is inhumane.
3. Capture them.

In real situation there might not be many options, and Ukraine will have to kill at least some of them. But say, if 1000 of them surrender, I would rather have them be captured than summarily executed.

 

[ZiprHead]

Video posted by the navy and on social media showed explosions and a big ship on fire at the port, about 70km (44 miles) west of Mariupol, at 07:00 local time (05:00 GMT) on Thursday.

The Ukrainian military said its forces had struck a Russian vessel called the Orsk.
Deputy Defence Minister Hanna Malyar later told Ukrainian TV that the military had hit a "huge target", capable of carrying 20 tanks, 45 armoured vehicles and 400 troops.

Russian army TV hailed the arrival of the Orsk in Berdyansk last week as an "epic event" as it was the first Russian warship to dock in Berdyansk.

 

[Harry Bosch]

Video posted by the navy and on social media showed explosions and a big ship on fire at the port, about 70km (44 miles) west of Mariupol, at 07:00 local time (05:00 GMT) on Thursday.

The Ukrainian military said its forces had struck a Russian vessel called the Orsk.
Deputy Defence Minister Hanna Malyar later told Ukrainian TV that the military had hit a "huge target", capable of carrying 20 tanks, 45 armoured vehicles and 400 troops.

Russian army TV hailed the arrival of the Orsk in Berdyansk last week as an "epic event" as it was the first Russian warship to dock in Berdyansk.

Russian ships would get a far better welcoming if they came into foreign ports with travelers, musicians, athletes, and the permission of the host country.

 

[Harry Bosch]

The Russians are the biggest drama queens in the world. A top Russian aide ws quoted as saying that Russia fears its confrontation with the West over Ukraine could cause its civilization to crumble. "Vladimir Medinsky, Russia's chief negotiator in talks with Ukraine, told a meeting of an interdepartmental commission on historical education that Moscow now faces a great challenge with the West, according to Russian news agency RIA Novosti."

MSN

Oh brother. No one wants Russia to crumble. Their cheap gas would be nice. They do some farming also. We just want them to send their troops home. Just go home. Quit bombing foreign countries that you think are being mean to you. Stop killing people. It's not that hard.

 

[Keith&Co.]

So, i have a question. Tucker Carlson's defended his failure to condemn Putin with something along the lines of:

unless Vladimir Putin has personally had you or one of your family members murdered, you really don’t have any right to criticize the guy:

Wasn't this basically the reason Muhammed Ali refused to go to Viet Nam and shoot people? They never done anything to him, personally, so he didn't feel that he had an interest in, or the right to shoot them. He went to jail and there are people on this board STILL upset that he threw his support to the North Vietnamese.
So for those people listing Ali as a traitor (who went to jail for his position), are they putting Fucker Carlson on the same list for the same reason?

 

[Elixir]

So, i have a question. Tucker Carlson's defended his failure to condemn Putin with something along the lines of:

unless Vladimir Putin has personally had you or one of your family members murdered, you really don’t have any right to criticize the guy:

Wasn't this basically the reason Muhammed Ali refused to go to Viet Nam and shoot people? They never done anything to him, personally, so he didn't feel that he had an interest in, or the right to shoot them. He went to jail and there are people on this board STILL upset that he threw his support to the North Vietnamese.
So for those people listing Ali as a traitor (who went to jail for his position), are they putting Fucker Carlson on the same list for the same reason?

Fuck no!
Prove me wrong.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

So, i have a question. Tucker Carlson's defended his failure to condemn Putin with something along the lines of:

unless Vladimir Putin has personally had you or one of your family members murdered, you really don’t have any right to criticize the guy:

He said that?! So President Obama had Carlson's family murdered?

 

[TV and credit cards]

Video posted by the navy and on social media showed explosions and a big ship on fire at the port, about 70km (44 miles) west of Mariupol, at 07:00 local time (05:00 GMT) on Thursday.

The Ukrainian military said its forces had struck a Russian vessel called the Orsk.
Deputy Defence Minister Hanna Malyar later told Ukrainian TV that the military had hit a "huge target", capable of carrying 20 tanks, 45 armoured vehicles and 400 troops.

Russian army TV hailed the arrival of the Orsk in Berdyansk last week as an "epic event" as it was the first Russian warship to dock in Berdyansk.

I'll bet it was a...

I'll betcha.