How should west respond to potential (likely) Russian invasion of Ukraine?

[DrZoidberg]

The problem is that the west is not going to let Ukraine collapse, mostly because it does not serve to let a bully be a bully.

We let Afghanistan collapse. Iraq ain't doing so great either. We left the Kurds who helped fight ISIS at the mercy of Turkey.

The west doesn't exactly have a stellar track record, but maybe this time is different.

Ukrainians are white. I think that is the difference

I think it's more that places like Afghanistan it's hard to identify a good guy. Every power group is a problem, it's just some are worse than others. Ukraine vs Russia has a clear good guy, a side we do not expect to cause trouble if they have leftover weapons after victory.

It's the same in Ukraine. Russia and Ukraine are both run by oligarchs, ie the maffia. Both are dysfunctional kleptocracies. Zelensky isn't a good guy. Western media has done their best to spin him into one. But it was always a lie. We're not helping Ukraine for the sake of the Ukrainians. But for the sake of world peace

The main problem with Afghanistan is that people there are extremely Muslim as well as patriotic. If you're not Muslim you are an enemy. Whatever else you do is secondary. It makes it very hard for the west to help them.

How many yachts and gargantuan palaces does Zelensky own? Asking for my cat.

It's not Zelensky that's the problem. It's the oligarchs.

The democratic institutions of Ukraine are incredibly fragile and weak. All real power and wealth lies still in the hands of oligarchs. The Ukrainian president is analogous to a medieval European king. On paper has absolute power. In practice totally dependent on the lords , nominally, below him and has to obey their wishes, in order to get anything real done.

Case in point is Zelensky's predecessor, Poroshenko. He replaced (the Russian puppet) Yanukovych in the Euromaidan revolution. Yanukovych was incredibly unpopular. One would have thought that with a predecessor like that Poroschenko couldn't have failed. Yet, lost to Zelensky in the 2019 election. Why? Because he failed to deal with the rampant corruption and Ukraine was still Russia's and the oligarchs little bitch. Fun fact, Russia's Facebook trolls and social media propaganda helped to put Zelensky in power.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Kind of a tangent, but interesting video showing how borders changed over time. Noticed there was a small Ukraine around 1610, but got taken over, only to appear again in 1904, swallowed again, appearing once more in 1990

One of the less useful videos I have encountered. You won't get anything out of it unless you are unaware that borders change frequently, the Ukrainian Cossack rebellion that caused its split from the Polish–Lithuanian Commonwealth happened, well, maybe some time in the 17th century, WWI started in 1891, WWII ended in 1959 and many other little-known facts.

The version it may have been copied from (Moonies channel on Vimeo), sped up by a factor of 2.34, and its resolution reduced, is no better.

I also don't understand how that video defines a border having changed. Germany ruled most of Europe in 1942. But France doesn't in 1805.

 

[Hermit]

Russia and Ukraine are both run by oligarchs, ie the maffia. Both are dysfunctional kleptocracies. Zelensky isn't a good guy. Western media has done their best to spin him into one. But it was always a lie. We're not helping Ukraine for the sake of the Ukrainians. But for the sake of world peace

How many yachts and gargantuan palaces does Zelensky own? Asking for my cat.

None, but DrZoidberg is right. The 2021 leak of 11.9 million leaked documents with 2.9 terabytes of data provide evidence that Zelenskyy was very active moving money into secretive offshore tax havens since 2012. He continued this activity without declaring any of the companies involved even as he declared that his primary aim was to fight corruption and morally questionable financial wheeling-dealing if he won the presidential election.

A lengthy account of his activities, and those of his associates/family published by the Organized Crime and Corruption Reporting Project on this page. If you are concerned that the project is a front for Russian psyops, rest assured it is not. OCCRP is funded by UNDEF, a body created by UN Secretary-General Kofi Annan in 2005, supported by Google and has featured oodles of exposés regarding Russian oligarchs.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Russia and Ukraine are both run by oligarchs, ie the maffia. Both are dysfunctional kleptocracies. Zelensky isn't a good guy. Western media has done their best to spin him into one. But it was always a lie. We're not helping Ukraine for the sake of the Ukrainians. But for the sake of world peace

How many yachts and gargantuan palaces does Zelensky own? Asking for my cat.

None, but DrZoidberg is right. The 2021 leak of 11.9 million leaked documents with 2.9 terabytes of data provide evidence that Zelenskyy was very active moving money into secretive offshore tax havens since 2012. He continued this activity without declaring any of the companies involved even as he declared that his primary aim was to fight corruption and morally questionable financial wheeling-dealing if he won the presidential election.

A lengthy account of his activities, and those of his associates/family published by the Organized Crime and Corruption Reporting Project on this page. If you are concerned that the project is a front for Russian psyops, rest assured it is not. OCCRP is funded by UNDEF, a body created by UN Secretary-General Kofi Annan in 2005, supported by Google and has featured oodles of exposés regarding Russian oligarchs.

The Ukraine government is so enmeshed with the maffia that they're in practice the same organisation. Any president needs to be able to play that game. It's also a situation where anybody in power will be tainted by corruption. They all know it. Sooner or later the jig is up. So for a Ukrainian leader (having any power on any level) it's all about maximising personal profits and helping their friends. if they don't they're stupid.

Given the situation Zelensky is doing great. But he can't do a better job than what is possible, given the utter mess Ukraine is in. The Soviet heritage goes deep. The rot is deep into the core of that country. It'll take many decades to turn it around. It can be done. Poland and the Czech Republic did it. It's still far from likely

 

[Jayjay]

Working hardship on civilian populations rarely wins wars. No in Russia, Leningrad, Stalingrad. Not in Germany, massive USAF and RAF bombing raids. Not the blitz or V-1s or V-2s. Long term, rank terrorism of civilian populations does not work.

One of those three did lose eventually.

Despite, not because of, the attacks on civilians.

Yes, that was the point. Russia isn't winning because it's hitting civilian infrastructure, but it isn't going to lose because of that either.

 

[steve_bank]

Russia is attacking civilians and infrastructure because it is loosing and can't do anything else.

https://www.cnn.com/europe/live-news/russia-ukraine-war-news-10-19-22#h_f5c56f5ecd1176ed411c4cea123ec739

Russian President Vladimir Putin announced on Wednesday that he has signed a law introducing martial law in four Ukrainian regions the Kremlin has sought to annex, in violation of international law.


The regions — Kherson, Zaporizhzhia, Donetsk and Luhansk — are not under full Russian control. Western nations have decried the annexations and vowed not to recognize them as Russian territory.


Putin made the comments during a scheduled Security Council meeting.


“In this regard, let me remind you that in the Donetsk People’s Republic, the Luhansk People’s Republic, as well as in the Kherson and Zaporizhzhia regions, martial law was in effect before joining Russia,” Putin said during a televised address. “Now we need to formalize this regime within the framework of Russian legislation.”


“Therefore, I signed a decree on the introduction of martial law in these four subjects of the Russian Federation, so it will be immediately sent to the Federation Council,” Putin added.


The Federation Council will consider the decree of Russian President Vladimir Putin on martial law in the regions as soon as possible, said Andrei Klishas, chairman of the Federation Council committee on constitutional legislation, in a statement on his Telegram channel.

The Nazi playbok. Conquer and depopulate for German expansion.

Russia ramps up relocation of civilians in Kherson. It may soon lose one of the biggest prizes of its war | CNN

The Russian-installed leaders in Ukraine's Kherson region on Wednesday began massively ramping up the relocation of up to 60,000 people amid warnings over Russia's ability to withstand a Ukrainian counter-offensive.

www.cnn.com

The Russian-installed leaders in Ukraine’s Kherson region on Wednesday began massively ramping up the relocation of up to 60,000 people amid warnings over Russia’s ability to withstand a Ukrainian counter-offensive.


Ukrainian officials have accused Russia of generating “hysteria” to compel people to leave. Residents in the city of Kherson began to receive text messages on Wednesday morning from the pro-Russian administration.


“Dear residents,” it read. “Evacuate immediately. There will be shelling of residential areas by the Armed Forces of Ukraine. There will be buses from 7:00, from Rechport [River port] to the Left Bank.”

 

[Jayjay]

Russia is attacking civilians and infrastructure because it is loosing and can't do anything else.

Destruction of civilian infrastructure is a goal in and of itself to Putin. If he can't get it, he'll do his best to make sure the Ukraine's economy is wrecked for years to come. Hence targeting the electric grid and power plants.

If Putin gets his way, and it looks like he will, the war will devolve into a frozen conflict that will never let Ukraine rebuild its industry or economy, which in turn will mean masses of people and various criminal gangs and oligarchs taking advantage of the situation.

 

[Elixir]

So german government says they know who blew up NordStream but will not disclose that information due to national security.

Source?

Exactly.

Yup. The dishonesty of the Russian shill is laid bare by his inability to provide sources for his naked assertions.
It is an eerie reflection of MAGAts’ inability to provide evidence for the mythical electoral fraud upon which their entire self-image depends.

 

[TV and credit cards]

More lies from the western media.
I particularly like this statement:

The Russian state media creates the illusion that politics is hard and that Putin is the only one able to handle it – so the Russian people might as well support him.

Kinda sounds like "I alone can fix it.", eh?

So Russia is in mobilization+ mode. There are varying degrees of martial law set up across Russia and I hear about a million mobilization age fellas are not allowed to leave the country. They do appear to be moving to a wartime economy in that the needs of the armed forces will come first within industry. Let's call it "partial law" so as to obscure what may come.

Alas, momma can't keep baby cozy and warm much longer.

Looks like that warm blanket of ignorance is being pulled off the backs of the Russian public. As long as Ukraine does not attack any of Russia (actual Russia) any time soon, the public will not have Ukrainian Nazis to blame. Well, except those that already are. Those that are truly hell and gone, stage IV propaganda zombies.

And Putin's not going to give up. He can send an endless stream of young Russian men to their deaths. If they're not shot, they'll freeze to death. Can't pay them. Can't outfit them. Can't even supply them with ammo. Won't pay out survivor benefits to the families. This is all anecdotal. To what it extent it pervades, I do not know. But that these anecdotes are here now indicates it's only going to get worse. Russia cannot fight this war to a draw conventionally. They do not have the equipment or the cash.

 

[Cheerful Charlie]

Reports from Rusia are coming in the ex-wives are turning names of dead beat ex dads into conscription offices. Don't be pissing off ex baby mama.

 

[steve_bank]

Anybody remember Baghdad Bob Hussein's media man who when saying Baghdad would never be entered on camera smoke began rising behhd him.

Or Vladimir Pozner, the Soviet political media shill? The Soviet Union is a widerful place.

Before the internet I I listened to state radio on shortwave. Russia, China, Brits, USA, France anda few oter communist stations.

 

[Jayjay]

Reports from Rusia are coming in the ex-wives are turning names of dead beat ex dads into conscription offices. Don't be pissing off ex baby mama.

I've read about that too. That deadbeat dads are suddenly becoming very keen to connect with their children, because fathers of multiple children get exemption from mobilization. But the conscription officers wouldn't be doing their job if they didn't call the moms to verify...

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

So german government says they know who blew up NordStream but will not disclose that information due to national security.

Source?

Exactly.

Yup. The dishonesty of the Russian shill is laid bare by his inability to provide sources for his naked assertions.
It is an eerie reflection of MAGAts’ inability to provide evidence for the mythical electoral fraud upon which their entire self-image depends.

I'm pretty certain we are sure it was Hunter Biden's laptop that tried to destroy the pipeline.

 

[Patooka]

Anybody remember Baghdad Bob Hussein's media man who when saying Baghdad would never be entered on camera smoke began rising behhd him.

He has been brought up, ostensibly whenever barbos has something to spew, many many times in this thread.

 

[Tigers!]

Russia is attacking civilians and infrastructure because it is loosing and can't do anything else.

Destruction of civilian infrastructure is a goal in and of itself to Putin. If he can't get it, he'll do his best to make sure the Ukraine's economy is wrecked for years to come. Hence targeting the electric grid and power plants.

If Putin gets his way, and it looks like he will, the war will devolve into a frozen conflict that will never let Ukraine rebuild its industry or economy, which in turn will mean masses of people and various criminal gangs and oligarchs taking advantage of the situation.

Another variant of the old saw "If I can't have you nobody can"

 

[blastula]

Didn't barbos used to have Baghdad Bob as his avi?

 

[bilby]

More lies from the western media.
I particularly like this statement:

The Russian state media creates the illusion that politics is hard and that Putin is the only one able to handle it – so the Russian people might as well support him.

Kinda sounds like "I alone can fix it.", eh?

That's ridiculous. Politics is so easy that even Liz Truss can do it.


Oh, wait.



Shit.

 

[Jayjay]

In his recent visit to Kazakhstan, Putin said that only 7 out of the 29 goals for the special military operations were remaining.

So he's done 22 out of 29. If that's not good leadership, what is? Progress is exactly as planned.

 

[Cheerful Charlie]

Putin's bullshit meter?

 

[TV and credit cards]

Eastward ho!
And back to old territory. Not wanting to leave behind what's left of their equipment (Smart, smart. We're learning.), Russian forces are ferrying it east across the Dnipro. And then they'll blow the dam at the Kakhovka Hydro Power Plant. Telling, that they've nothing left to supply their southern forces. Are they spent or can they just not get equipment from point A to point B because the Kerch bridge went kablooey?