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How should west respond to potential (likely) Russian invasion of Ukraine?

(((Tendar))) on Twitter: "It took Russians more than 4 months, the usage of their best troops and countless losses on their part to even reach the city perimeter of Bakhmut and now they are getting pushed out in a matter of few days. #Bakhmut #Donetsk #Ukraine (pic link)" / Twitter

Derick G on Twitter: "@Tendar This is how Ukraine ..." / Twitter
This is how Ukraine is effectively able to retake territory, when they can't accept the typical greater losses of overcoming defender's advantage.

Just let the russians take those losses until they are exhausted, then push them over. Worked in Kyiv, Kharkiv, Kherson, now here.

(Yes, this is a bit of an oversimplification, but I learned months ago not to be worried when the situation looks static on the map, and instead to try and figure out what's actually happening on the line of contact.)
Like the  Rope-a-dope boxing strategy.
 
Ukraine taking Kherson is huge. It denies the Russians establishing a land bridge to Moltov (SP?). But more importantly, it gives control of major land and water access north of Crimea. If the Ukranian offensive starts to stall (and it must as some point); it means that the damn Russians will need to at least negotiate for water to flow to Crimea. If not, shut off the water again.
 
Ukraine taking Kherson is huge. It denies the Russians establishing a land bridge to Moltov (SP?). But more importantly, it gives control of major land and water access north of Crimea. If the Ukranian offensive starts to stall (and it must as some point); it means that the damn Russians will need to at least negotiate for water to flow to Crimea. If not, shut off the water again.
Unless Russia blows up that dam while retreating.
 
Liberal Dems tell Biden to negotiate with Putin.
article said:
In a letter led by Rep. Pramila Jayapal (D-Wash.), chair of the Congressional Progressive Caucus, the 30 Democrats call on Biden to pair the unprecedented economic and military support the United States is providing Ukraine with a “proactive diplomatic push, redoubling efforts to seek a realistic framework for a ceasefire."
Agreed fully... also think that this is what is currently happening... Russia has no interest in anything but another large chunk of Ukraine.
article said:
The liberal Democrats note that the war’s disastrous consequences are increasingly felt far beyond Ukraine, including elevated food and gas prices in the United States and spikes in the price of wheat, fertilizer and fuel that have created global food shortages, not to mention the danger of a nuclear attack by Moscow.
Russia wanted the whole damn country... are we to cede that much Ukraine? Or just a portion of it? Why? Why the fuck do they come out with this now?
 
Shouldn't they ask Ukrainians what they prefer: ceasefire and concessions, or to keep fighting?


“Despite the Russian shelling, which destroys infrastructure and takes people’s lives, 86 percent of respondents said it is necessary to continue the armed struggle anyway, even if the shelling continues. In particular, 71 percent of them fully agree with this opinion (another 16 percent rather agree),” KIIS said in a press release on the results of the survey.

It notes that only 10 percent of respondents replied that it is necessary to move to negotiations for the earliest possible cessation of shelling, even if it is necessary to make concessions to Russia.

(...)

They add that among the respondents who chose the Ukrainian language for the interview, the overwhelming majority (89 percent) believe that it is necessary to continue armed resistance, even if the shelling continues.

At the same time, only seven percent of Ukrainian-speaking respondents believe that it is necessary to start negotiations, even if Ukraine has to make concessions to Russia. Among the respondents who chose to speak Russian for the interview, these figures are 66 percent and 29 percent, respectively.
 
I've got a better question. What guarantees are there that Russia will adhere to the cease fire conditions this time? Creating a cease fire just so we can do all this again in five years isn't a cease fire - it's a shitty pause. And all indications show any cease fire that Putin is willing to agree to now makes war a certainty in the not too distant future.
 
I've got a better question. What guarantees are there that Russia will adhere to the cease fire conditions this time? Creating a cease fire just so we can do all this again in five years isn't a cease fire - it's a shitty pause. And all indications show any cease fire that Putin is willing to agree to now makes war a certainty in the not too distant future.
The only guarantee would be defensible borders Right now that's not the case: the Russian bridgehead in Kherson would threaten Odessa as well as give Russia ability to hit Ukraine's supply lines to Zaporizhzhia.

But let's say Ukraine takes Kherson. I think that might work out. But Ukraine isn't going to surrender the remaining areas without trying to liberate them. That would be a political impossibility and any leader in Ukraine who tries it would be branded a traitor. Meanwhile in Russia, Putin still probably harbors illusions about complete control of Ukraine or at least land connection to Transnistria. So unfortunately even though I think that the eventual border will be roughly the current frontline, it will take a long time before that's going to be accepted by both sides.
 
So unfortunately even though I think that the eventual border will be roughly the current frontline
I wouldn't be so sure. Ukraine is in a much stronger position logistically than Russia. 6-months-ago-Patooka would have said Putin hasn't done a full mobilization because he is keeping all his good stuff for possible NATO involvement in the conflict. Modern-day-Patooka thinks the Russian military is more hollowed out than anyone realises and a mobilization will put a huge spotlight on that. It's obvious both sides have unreliable supply issues, there have been plenty of posts about that in this thread. But I can't help but think going by past occurrences Russia will run out of steam first. It's not the Soviet Union, it doesn't spend anywhere near as much on defense as the US and it expended a fair amount of its kit in Syria in recent years.
 
I've got a better question. What guarantees are there that Russia will adhere to the cease fire conditions this time? Creating a cease fire just so we can do all this again in five years isn't a cease fire - it's a shitty pause. And all indications show any cease fire that Putin is willing to agree to now makes war a certainty in the not too distant future.
Russia violated the agreement it signed to guaranteeing Ukrainian sovereignty.

Obviously Russia can not be trusted at all.

Crimea went unchallenged, undoubtedly giving Putin some confdence for the war.

A line from te movie Air Force One. about Russian extremist angry over the collapse of the Soviets.

Give a mouse a cookie and he will wnat a glass of milk.
 
So unfortunately even though I think that the eventual border will be roughly the current frontline
I wouldn't be so sure. Ukraine is in a much stronger position logistically than Russia. 6-months-ago-Patooka would have said Putin hasn't done a full mobilization because he is keeping all his good stuff for possible NATO involvement in the conflict. Modern-day-Patooka thinks the Russian military is more hollowed out than anyone realises and a mobilization will put a huge spotlight on that. It's obvious both sides have unreliable supply issues, there have been plenty of posts about that in this thread. But I can't help but think going by past occurrences Russia will run out of steam first. It's not the Soviet Union, it doesn't spend anywhere near as much on defense as the US and it expended a fair amount of its kit in Syria in recent years.

Russia cannot replace what they are expending at this rate. I've read they've gone through seven years worth of military equipment since February. Even if their economy goes into a wartime posture, they haven't the industrial capacity to ramp up a lot of what they need. They can't build tanks. They can't cut artillery barrels. They haven't the basic electronic components necessary to build weapon systems. They were too dependent upon the west for machinery and electronics. They're buying chips on the black market, most of which are defective. They're buying up company rejects. They've got no choice. They are purchasing helmets and body armor from Iran now. Even if they have some kit left in storage, they are likely saving it for next year because their budget for next year is a fraction of what it needs to be.

They're roached.

And they're not keeping Crimea. The further out of range from Odessa the better. Barring any Trumplike creature taking the Whitehouse, the US is going to make damn sure Russia reconstituting their military is going to lag Ukraine's by a good decade or so.
 
So unfortunately even though I think that the eventual border will be roughly the current frontline
I wouldn't be so sure. Ukraine is in a much stronger position logistically than Russia. 6-months-ago-Patooka would have said Putin hasn't done a full mobilization because he is keeping all his good stuff for possible NATO involvement in the conflict. Modern-day-Patooka thinks the Russian military is more hollowed out than anyone realises and a mobilization will put a huge spotlight on that. It's obvious both sides have unreliable supply issues, there have been plenty of posts about that in this thread. But I can't help but think going by past occurrences Russia will run out of steam first. It's not the Soviet Union, it doesn't spend anywhere near as much on defense as the US and it expended a fair amount of its kit in Syria in recent years.

Russia is large in land mass and has to deal with potential rivals like China, local revolts, terorism, and guarding numerous military sites. They cannot just rush all their military to Ukraine. It has long been policy to keep a strong military force near Moscow. That won't change much.
 
D.Emery on Twitter: "Absolutely insane and chaotic combat footage from UKR tank. Russian convoy runs straight into UKR 25th brigade fighting near Kherson. Date Unknown. (vid link)" / Twitter

Ukraine taking Kherson is huge. It denies the Russians establishing a land bridge to Moltov (SP?). But more importantly, it gives control of major land and water access north of Crimea.
That's Moldova. Or more precisely, Transnistria, a breakaway state in Moldova that Russia supports, a state that inhabits a thin strip of land east of the Dniester River.

It is one of  List of states with limited recognition This lack of recognition is a result of various conflicts. Fully recognized: ()
  • China - Taiwan
  • South Korea - North Korea
  • Cyprus - Northern Cyprus
  • Israel - Palestine
  • Armenia, Artsakh - (Azerbaijan)
  • Abkhazia, South Ossetia - (Georgia)
  • Donetsk, Luhansk People's Republics - (Ukraine) - (now annexed by Russia)
  • Transnistria - (Moldova)
  • Sahrawi Arab Democratic Republic - (Morocco)
  • Kosovo - (Serbia)
  • Somaliland - (Somalia)
Here are the ones that Russia is involved with:

Abkhazia and S Ossetia are recognized by Russia, Nicaragua, Venezuela, Syria, and Nauru (tiny Pacific-island nation), and SO also by the SADR.

The Donetsk and Luhansk PR's were recognized by Belarus, Nicaragua, Venezuela, Sudan, and the Central African Republic when they were nominally independent.

Abkhazia, S Ossetia, Transnistria, Artsakh, and when they existed, Donetsk and Luhansk PR's, all recognize or recognized each other.
 
I've got a better question. What guarantees are there that Russia will adhere to the cease fire conditions this time? Creating a cease fire just so we can do all this again in five years isn't a cease fire - it's a shitty pause. And all indications show any cease fire that Putin is willing to agree to now makes war a certainty in the not too distant future.
The only guarantee would be defensible borders Right now that's not the case: the Russian bridgehead in Kherson would threaten Odessa as well as give Russia ability to hit Ukraine's supply lines to Zaporizhzhia.

But let's say Ukraine takes Kherson. I think that might work out. But Ukraine isn't going to surrender the remaining areas without trying to liberate them. That would be a political impossibility and any leader in Ukraine who tries it would be branded a traitor. Meanwhile in Russia, Putin still probably harbors illusions about complete control of Ukraine or at least land connection to Transnistria. So unfortunately even though I think that the eventual border will be roughly the current frontline, it will take a long time before that's going to be accepted by both sides.
Amazing how two sides have completely opposite perspectives on this war.
You still think that Ukraine is winning or can win. Your propaganda must be very strong.
Ukraine can't take anything. All their (multiple) attempts at taking anything were bloody (literally) failures.
Meanwhile, latest estimates of ukrainian losses surfaces and they are horrendous.
They use open sources from Ukraine to do the estimation. And the number is 400K, including 50K mercenaries. They are thinking about mobilizing 60 year olds.
These ukrainian imbeciles die for nothing.
 
Now Russia is using Iranian drones and operators.
NATO controlled Ukraine have been using western weapons and operators for months now.
And by the way, what you just said is most certainly a lie. First, no iranian operators (no need for that). Secondly these drones are most certainly made in Russia, even though it's iranian design.
 
latest estimates of ukrainian losses surfaces and they are horrendous.
I think you have been fed the figures for dead Putinistas, barbie.
Secondly these drones are most certainly made in Russia, even though it's iranian design.

So Russians are so stupid that they make drones, send them to Iran then have to go pick them up? Sounds stupid enough for the Putler military...

From August, widely reported and supported with first hand accounts:

Russian cargo planes have quietly picked up the first of scores of Iranian-made combat drones for use against Ukraine, in a move that underscores deepening ties between Moscow and Tehran while also highlighting Russia’s struggles to supply its overstretched military.

Russia didn't even bother to deny it at the time. Now, months later it has become a(nother) point of embarrassment for the hapless corrupt war criminals of the Russian military, forcing shills like barbie to make up more crap to spew in places like this.
 
We tend to think of this war as confined to Ukraine, but it is really a war between Russia and Europe--a war whose violent side has not spread beyond the borders of Ukraine yet. And one could, of course, include the entire Western alliance, because Europe is a vital part of that. The main weapons used on the nonviolent fronts are primarily economic and diplomatic. The sabotage of the Russian pipeline in the Baltic was part of Russia's economic front, as it seeks to cut off the delivery of essential LNG supplies. The defensive reaction has been to ship LNG into Europe, which is not prepared for that form of delivery. Here is an article from the front lines of that economic war:

Dozens of LNG-laden ships queue off Europe's coasts unable to unload

It's not so much about this war, than a longer term plan of Putin to make Europe reliant on Russian energy. Before the war, Germany got 55% of its natural gas from Russia. Sure, they could have diversified, but who's going to invest billions of euros to build LNG terminals, which might never recoup the investment?

The root cause of the problem is that in Europe and west in general, the energy industry is controller by private companies, whereas in Russia they're state controlled and are capable of longer term planning and also using energy as a political tool: friendly governments get discounts, unfriendly ones are threatened with cutting off the deliveries. Ironically, only way to shield from this is to more socialism. In retrospect, German government should have made a political decision that they will build those terminals for more expensive LNG and cap the Russian gas deliveries even if it doesn't make economic sense.

There are similar risky dependencies to China for solar panels, rare Earth minerals, and whatever other resources.
True, reliance on Russian resources complicates illegal western war on Russia.
 
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