• Welcome to the new Internet Infidels Discussion Board, formerly Talk Freethought.

How should west respond to potential (likely) Russian invasion of Ukraine?

With Sweden joining, that leaves only Serbia, Austria, Switzerland, and Ireland not in NATO.
Well Australia isn't in NATO either, and nor is China, so that claim seems a little premature (at least without the qualifier "of European nations")
What part of North Atlantic do you not get? ;)
What part of the North Atlantic washes up against Austria and Switzerland, or Serbia for that matter?

I will grant that Ireland is distinctly in the North Atlantic.
 
Ukraine now claims to have fire control over Bakhmut and all Russian GLOC’s going into the city. Russian milbloggers are expressing alarm that their forces are effectively surrounded. If so, this could be a huge breakthrough, although it will take some time to play out.

Where the fuck is Barbos? Haven’t seen him for months.
 
I find the lack of verified information on the progress of the Ukrainian advance excruciatingly painful. This is more frustrating than waiting for the next season of Dance of Dragons
 
Ukraine to be offered ‘Nato-lite’ protection

It comes as Nato leaders were given a major boost on Monday, when Turkey finally dropped its veto to Swedish membership.

Jens Stoltenberg, the Nato secretary-general, announced the “historic step” after talks with Recep Tayyip Erdoğan, the Turkish president, on the eve of the summit.

A new defence scheme for Ukraine would create a legally binding pledge to continue existing military support for Kyiv, said diplomats involved in the discussions.

There would also be promises on training for Ukrainian troops, intelligence-sharing and assistance with bringing Kyiv’s armed forces in line with Nato standards.

This is great news for NATO and Ukraine and a fresh shit sandwich for Putin.
It's pretty much what NATO has been offering Ukraine already. It's not a "fresh" shit sandwich, it's just the same stale one that Putin has been munching for the past 500 days.

NATO is ultimately about article 5 protection. Everything else can be achieved without membership: standards, cooperation, joint exercises, and as Ukraine has shown, military aid in times of need. This war has pushed Ukraine into a path that it will most certainly grow into a fully NATO compliant military and there's nothing Putin can do about it.

I can eventually see Belarus becoming part of NATO once things change there.
I think Belarus is too far gone. Unless Russia completely implodes like in 1917 or 1991, Belarus will be de facto annexed by Russia (or even de jure).

Georgia might join NATO at some point.
 
From a military perspective this war is actually interesting, and will be studied extensively in our War Colleges. It almost appears that we’ve returned to a sort of WWI type static warfare with defensive weapons able to blunt any attacking offensive forces. Tanks have not been able to make much of a difference and neither has air power. Artillery has been deployed effectively by both sides.
The thing that broke the static Western Front in WWI was the collapse of German logistics. Tanks got lots of press, but didn't really contribute much.

The downfall of the Germans was their success - they smashed through the lines, and pushed the front Westward in what could have been a decisive victory, had they been able to do it three years earlier. But by the time of the Kaiserschlacht, Germany was almost exhausted in materiel, and while they could likely hang on for months or years more with the benefit of the railway, road, and communications trench networks that years of static warfare had allowed them to perfect, they had no chance of supplying a new (more distant) line, across the shattered terrain of the old front.

Tanks became important only in the 1930s and '40s - and their effectiveness in keeping war mobile was completely dependent on close air support, at which the Luftwaffe excelled in the early stages of the war.

It's notable that the Battle of Britain wasn't a naval battle, but an aerial battle for control of the skies over the Channel.

And that both the German and Allied advances through Europe took place under an umbrella of air superiority or even supremacy. The reversal of the Allied forces at the Battle of the Bulge significantly occurred during a period of bad weather that grounded allied aircraft; It ended when the skies became accessible again.

In Ukraine, air power is being effectively limited to the skies above territory controlled by a given force. Neither side can effectively project air power into the enemy's airspace, due to the highly effective air defence systems in use; On both sides, this is a legacy of Soviet doctrine that sought to deny any enemy access to their airspace, rather than to force themselves upon the enemy's airspace.

NATO Cold War doctrine had the objective of eliminating ground based air defence systems, as well as the enemy airforce, to establish superiority or supremacy in the skies over their ground forces, and such would prevent the ground war from bogging down into static defensive warfare. What Ukraine has been lacking is air-superiority fighters, and (as importantly) ground attack weapons such as radar seeking missiles, that can eliminate or suppress Russian anti aircraft systems.

Control of the skies is a prerequisite for the avoidance of static defensive ground war. The only other way to break it is to destroy its supply chain, which is virtually impossible without a massively effective blockade, and/or a huge strategic blunder.(On the Western Front in WWI, it took the combination of both).

If Ukraine had a small number of A10 style anti-tank aircraft, and (most critically) sufficient control of the airspace, including suppression of triple-A, for such vulnerable aircraft to be able to survive their sorties, the Russian lines could be broken in short order.

But as long as Ukraine cannot effectively undertake aerial attacks against Russian forces behind their defensive lines, it will require the Russians to fuck up massively, if Ukraine is to retake the occupied territory.

Of course, it's by no means certain that Putin won't fuck up massively; But waiting for him to do so could be a very long term strategy indeed.
 
What screwed Germany in WW1 was the collapse of the Russian military. Germany soon grabbed large areas in their East. But they had to move large amounts of troops and supplies there to hold that, to prevent Russia from reorganizing and retaking lost territory. Germany could not hold the East and fight in the West. Entry of the U.S. into WW1 and Britain's successful blockades of German ports were also big factors in their defeat. A perfect storm.
 
Ukraine should start talking about peace negotiations. The war is at a stalemate, neither side seems to be able to make progress, and Russia certainly won't make an initiative. But time isn't on Ukraine's side. They should deal when they're on top. Or at least try to steer the war into a direction that they can't win all their land back.

More critical than just acres is that Ukraine gets a permanent border, no matter where it is. Not a frozen conflict where neither side acknowledges the other. Another key part is that there are security guarantees from NATO that make it impossible for Russia to attack again.
 
Ukraine should start talking about peace negotiations. The war is at a stalemate, neither side seems to be able to make progress, and Russia certainly won't make an initiative. But time isn't on Ukraine's side. They should deal when they're on top. Or at least try to steer the war into a direction that they can't win all their land back.

More critical than just acres is that Ukraine gets a permanent border, no matter where it is. Not a frozen conflict where neither side acknowledges the other. Another key part is that there are security guarantees from NATO that make it impossible for Russia to attack again.
Yea, I think that security guaranties and a promise to help rebuild Ukraine is a necessity. However, I've never thought that Putin is interested in a peace - even if they keep the land that they've illegally stolen.
 
Ukraine should start talking about peace negotiations. The war is at a stalemate, neither side seems to be able to make progress, and Russia certainly won't make an initiative. But time isn't on Ukraine's side. They should deal when they're on top. Or at least try to steer the war into a direction that they can't win all their land back.

More critical than just acres is that Ukraine gets a permanent border, no matter where it is. Not a frozen conflict where neither side acknowledges the other. Another key part is that there are security guarantees from NATO that make it impossible for Russia to attack again.
Perhaps wait until the NATO summit has concluded. We'll see how quickly Ukraine will be allowed to join NATO. I can't imagine NATO members will even imply that the sooner Ukraine ends this the sooner they will be allowed to join. Considering all that has transpired over the past year and a half, this would be quite insulting.
And Erdoğan looks to be snubbing Putin to whatever ends that may serve. I reckon he's going to get his F-16s.

Last I heard Ukraine is still holding the main body of their trained battalions and equipment in reserve. This while hitting the most expected and best defended areas in Bakhmut, Zaporizhzhia, and the river crossing in Kherson. And they are making progress. Once these areas are sufficiently softened up, more and fresh Ukrainian forces can be sent to engage. Not to sound callous but lets at least wait to see if cluster munitions help the cause.

If at this summit NATO members reassert their commitment to Ukraine for the remainder of the year without equivocation, then they see hope for expelling Russia from Ukrainian lands.
 
Ukraine should start talking about peace negotiations. The war is at a stalemate, neither side seems to be able to make progress, and Russia certainly won't make an initiative. But time isn't on Ukraine's side. They should deal when they're on top. Or at least try to steer the war into a direction that they can't win all their land back.

More critical than just acres is that Ukraine gets a permanent border, no matter where it is. Not a frozen conflict where neither side acknowledges the other. Another key part is that there are security guarantees from NATO that make it impossible for Russia to attack again.
Perhaps wait until the NATO summit has concluded. We'll see how quickly Ukraine will be allowed to join NATO. I can't imagine NATO members will even imply that the sooner Ukraine ends this the sooner they will be allowed to join. Considering all that has transpired over the past year and a half, this would be quite insulting.
And Erdoğan looks to be snubbing Putin to whatever ends that may serve. I reckon he's going to get his F-16s.

Last I heard Ukraine is still holding the main body of their trained battalions and equipment in reserve. This while hitting the most expected and best defended areas in Bakhmut, Zaporizhzhia, and the river crossing in Kherson. And they are making progress. Once these areas are sufficiently softened up, more and fresh Ukrainian forces can be sent to engage. Not to sound callous but lets at least wait to see if cluster munitions help the cause.

If at this summit NATO members reassert their commitment to Ukraine for the remainder of the year without equivocation, then they see hope for expelling Russia from Ukrainian lands.
It's my understanding that NATO rules do not allow new membership to any nation in conflict with another.
 
Ukraine should start talking about peace negotiations. The war is at a stalemate, neither side seems to be able to make progress, and Russia certainly won't make an initiative. But time isn't on Ukraine's side. They should deal when they're on top. Or at least try to steer the war into a direction that they can't win all their land back.

More critical than just acres is that Ukraine gets a permanent border, no matter where it is. Not a frozen conflict where neither side acknowledges the other. Another key part is that there are security guarantees from NATO that make it impossible for Russia to attack again.
Bullshit. Why should Russian aggression be rewarded at all? They agreed to respect Ukrianian boundaries decades ago. Russia can end this war easily. Turn around and go home - even Crimea.

And Ukraine can win and they are winning. Russia is losing and Ukraine needs to just hang on. They may have effectively encircled Bakhmut. Even an so called stalemate is a win for Ukraine. He won’t last forever. And there’s a good chance that Putin will face internal pressures, possibly another coup. That would put an end to this real quickly. Putin needs to just fuck off and die. Like the guy‘s sign that said it early in this war, can we just skip to the part where you blow out your brains in a bunker?
 
Ukraine should start talking about peace negotiations. The war is at a stalemate, neither side seems to be able to make progress, and Russia certainly won't make an initiative. But time isn't on Ukraine's side. They should deal when they're on top. Or at least try to steer the war into a direction that they can't win all their land back.

More critical than just acres is that Ukraine gets a permanent border, no matter where it is. Not a frozen conflict where neither side acknowledges the other. Another key part is that there are security guarantees from NATO that make it impossible for Russia to attack again.
Perhaps wait until the NATO summit has concluded. We'll see how quickly Ukraine will be allowed to join NATO. I can't imagine NATO members will even imply that the sooner Ukraine ends this the sooner they will be allowed to join. Considering all that has transpired over the past year and a half, this would be quite insulting.
And Erdoğan looks to be snubbing Putin to whatever ends that may serve. I reckon he's going to get his F-16s.

Last I heard Ukraine is still holding the main body of their trained battalions and equipment in reserve. This while hitting the most expected and best defended areas in Bakhmut, Zaporizhzhia, and the river crossing in Kherson. And they are making progress. Once these areas are sufficiently softened up, more and fresh Ukrainian forces can be sent to engage. Not to sound callous but lets at least wait to see if cluster munitions help the cause.

If at this summit NATO members reassert their commitment to Ukraine for the remainder of the year without equivocation, then they see hope for expelling Russia from Ukrainian lands.
It's my understanding that NATO rules do not allow new membership to any nation in conflict with another.
Correct. It sounds like they might cut out a process called MAP or Membership Action Plan which normally could take some time as it is tailored to the country applying. Bosnia and Herzegovina have been at it since 2010. Getting Ukraine in just as soon as the fighting stops and before Russia can regroup its evil forces is essential.
 
Ukraine should start talking about peace negotiations. The war is at a stalemate, neither side seems to be able to make progress, and Russia certainly won't make an initiative. But time isn't on Ukraine's side. They should deal when they're on top. Or at least try to steer the war into a direction that they can't win all their land back.

More critical than just acres is that Ukraine gets a permanent border, no matter where it is. Not a frozen conflict where neither side acknowledges the other. Another key part is that there are security guarantees from NATO that make it impossible for Russia to attack again.
Bullshit. Why should Russian aggression be rewarded at all? They agreed to respect Ukrianian boundaries decades ago. Russia can end this war easily. Turn around and go home - even Crimea.

And Ukraine can win and they are winning. Russia is losing and Ukraine needs to just hang on. They may have effectively encircled Bakhmut. Even an so called stalemate is a win for Ukraine. He won’t last forever. And there’s a good chance that Putin will face internal pressures, possibly another coup. That would put an end to this real quickly. Putin needs to just fuck off and die. Like the guy‘s sign that said it early in this war, can we just skip to the part where you blow out your brains in a bunker?
I can imagine coming home one day and a squatter tells me that I need to begin negotiations with him for possession of my home, car, etc., while he destroys property and kills members of my family. Negotiate? No way. I'll die fighting for what is mine first. Any sane person would. Anything less is negotiating with the worst kind of scum Earth has to offer.

You can't even conduct a legitimate referendum in these occupied areas because Putin and his criminals have removed so much of the original population. The only way to deal with Putin is to kill the fucker and all the fuckers that are helping him in crime, no matter the cost. This is essentially avoiding a much larger WW3, a small price to pay in comparison.
 
Ukraine should start talking about peace negotiations. The war is at a stalemate, neither side seems to be able to make progress, and Russia certainly won't make an initiative. But time isn't on Ukraine's side. They should deal when they're on top. Or at least try to steer the war into a direction that they can't win all their land back.

More critical than just acres is that Ukraine gets a permanent border, no matter where it is. Not a frozen conflict where neither side acknowledges the other. Another key part is that there are security guarantees from NATO that make it impossible for Russia to attack again.
Bullshit. Why should Russian aggression be rewarded at all? They agreed to respect Ukrianian boundaries decades ago. Russia can end this war easily. Turn around and go home - even Crimea.
Ukraine needs to take the initiative on peace negotiations precisely because it can't end the war quickly. Russia is an autocracy, and Putin can pretty much what he wants. And if he's too stubborn, he can be removed, although he has made it rather hard. But Ukraine is a democracy, a slow-turning boat. Zelensky or his replacement in case of an assassination simply can't surrender to Russia to stop the war, even if he wanted to for some reason. The people need to be massaged to accept the idea. And that takes time.

And Ukraine can win and they are winning.
The "counter-offensive" fizzled to local tactical fighting. Ukraine's taking losses (although probably less than it did in the spring defending Bakhmut) and doesn't have infinite reserves. At some point they'll run out of steam. Russia isn't doing any better, but they have bigger reserves to draw from. At some point they'll have to cut some sort of compromise, no matter how unfair it is.

Zelensky is already saying that Ukraine will start negotiating when they reach Crimean border. It's kind of a compromise already.
 
More critical than just acres is that Ukraine gets a permanent border, no matter where it is. Not a frozen conflict where neither side acknowledges the other. Another key part is that there are security guarantees from NATO that make it impossible for Russia to attack again.
Europe does not need a DMZ, like between nth & sth Korea set up.
 
Ukraine should start talking about peace negotiations. The war is at a stalemate, neither side seems to be able to make progress, and Russia certainly won't make an initiative. But time isn't on Ukraine's side. They should deal when they're on top. Or at least try to steer the war into a direction that they can't win all their land back.

More critical than just acres is that Ukraine gets a permanent border, no matter where it is. Not a frozen conflict where neither side acknowledges the other. Another key part is that there are security guarantees from NATO that make it impossible for Russia to attack again.
Bullshit. Why should Russian aggression be rewarded at all? They agreed to respect Ukrianian boundaries decades ago. Russia can end this war easily. Turn around and go home - even Crimea.
Ukraine needs to take the initiative on peace negotiations precisely because it can't end the war quickly. Russia is an autocracy, and Putin can pretty much what he wants. And if he's too stubborn, he can be removed, although he has made it rather hard. But Ukraine is a democracy, a slow-turning boat. Zelensky or his replacement in case of an assassination simply can't surrender to Russia to stop the war, even if he wanted to for some reason. The people need to be massaged to accept the idea. And that takes time.

And Ukraine can win and they are winning.
The "counter-offensive" fizzled to local tactical fighting. Ukraine's taking losses (although probably less than it did in the spring defending Bakhmut) and doesn't have infinite reserves. At some point they'll run out of steam. Russia isn't doing any better, but they have bigger reserves to draw from. At some point they'll have to cut some sort of compromise, no matter how unfair it is.

Zelensky is already saying that Ukraine will start negotiating when they reach Crimean border. It's kind of a compromise already.
Again. Absolute bullshit. End the war quickly? Not necessary. Bleed Russia dry. It’s already happening. You keep looking at this through the lens that mass equals force. It doesn’t. Russia doesn’t have the mass that it appears. They have far too many other security threats than Ukraine, particularly internal ones as was so aptly demonstrated a few weeks ago.

Nor can Putin do what he wants. His options are quite limited. He may appear strong on the outside, but he has been severely weakened by this war and every set back results in further alienation. As pointed out above, Russian forces in Bakhmut have become effectively trapped. Russia can’t supply them with food or ammunition. It has trouble supplying all of its front line troops with such. It requires numerous troops just to keep the front line troops in order. They basically steal their supplies. The entire apparatus is corrupt and the Russians aren’t fighting for the government.

the only thing Russia can do is bomb. They have a lot of artillery, and missiles to lob at them. but even these aren’t limitless and by several accounts they are depleting even their stocks of these.

As for the counter offensive, it has seriously degraded Russian capabilities. It is working but it will take time. It doesn’t need thought to have a massive sweep of terrain to be successful either. It just has to degrade Russian operational capacity. Right now Russia has lost a huge of their combat capabilities. Their elite units have been decimated. They’re relying on untrained and unmotivated conscripts for the most part. They just lost their most effective force, Wagner, and Putin can’t afford to rely on the Chechens.

No. Putin is in a world of shit. He will watch his combat power erode further over the next year. He has to worry about a whole scale collapse and revolt by his own Army. Wagner turned on him. So can the rest of the Army. Fuck ‘em. No mercy For them until they are on their knees begging for it. That may take A while, yet, but Ukraine can hold out against Russia for years if necessary. And every Russian casualty is a dagger at Putin’s heart. Soon enough they’ll tire of the cocksucker.
 
Again. Absolute bullshit. End the war quickly? Not necessary. Bleed Russia dry. It’s already happening. You keep looking at this through the lens that mass equals force. It doesn’t. Russia doesn’t have the mass that it appears. They have far too many other security threats than Ukraine, particularly internal ones as was so aptly demonstrated a few weeks ago.

Nor can Putin do what he wants. His options are quite limited. He may appear strong on the outside, but he has been severely weakened by this war and every set back results in further alienation. As pointed out above, Russian forces in Bakhmut have become effectively trapped. Russia can’t supply them with food or ammunition. It has trouble supplying all of its front line troops with such. It requires numerous troops just to keep the front line troops in order. They basically steal their supplies. The entire apparatus is corrupt and the Russians aren’t fighting for the government.

the only thing Russia can do is bomb. They have a lot of artillery, and missiles to lob at them. but even these aren’t limitless and by several accounts they are depleting even their stocks of these.

As for the counter offensive, it has seriously degraded Russian capabilities. It is working but it will take time. It doesn’t need thought to have a massive sweep of terrain to be successful either. It just has to degrade Russian operational capacity. Right now Russia has lost a huge of their combat capabilities. Their elite units have been decimated. They’re relying on untrained and unmotivated conscripts for the most part. They just lost their most effective force, Wagner, and Putin can’t afford to rely on the Chechens.

No. Putin is in a world of shit. He will watch his combat power erode further over the next year. He has to worry about a whole scale collapse and revolt by his own Army. Wagner turned on him. So can the rest of the Army. Fuck ‘em. No mercy For them until they are on their knees begging for it. That may take A while, yet, but Ukraine can hold out against Russia for years if necessary. And every Russian casualty is a dagger at Putin’s heart. Soon enough they’ll tire of the cocksucker.
This is exactly the message Churchill delivered to his fellow Britons for years before they finally came to their senses about Hitler and all the comforting bullshit they were being fed about "Peace in our time." Churchill understood the danger and didn't pretend that it was just going to go away if we really, really, really hoped it would and that there would be no cost. The Ukrainians are modern day Greeks fighting modern day Persians to keep their freedom. Failure simply is not an option when it comes to opposing this kind of open aggression that humanity is all too familiar with. Putin must be stopped and must be stopped now. By invading Ukraine he has literally extended his neck so that the head can be severed. For every life unfortunately lost today we will save thousands. For every dollar spent we will save millions. Now is the time.
 
Back
Top Bottom