How should west respond to potential (likely) Russian invasion of Ukraine?

[Ford]

Whichever one Putin tells him.

We should keep this front of mind instead of treating babs as an independent agent advancing his own thoughts.

No, babs is a grown up with access to the same information you have and can reach his own conclusions. These are his thought. He believes the shit he spews.

I doubt it. He’s not a drooling moron; he knows NATO didn’t invade Ukraine (for example).

The only thing I don't get is...what's the end game here? Not in Ukraine (Putin wants to be the second coming of Peter The Great) but here at this forum.

I mean...this is not exactly a wildly popular corner of the internet. There are just over 2,000 members here, and dozens online at the moment. If I were trying to "move the meter" to the positive side on all things Russia by constantly posting the state's propaganda, I'd probably pick some other venue. But hey....maybe Barbarossa is aligned with our collective identity as irreligious infidels and thoroughgoing skeptics? Kinda hard to tell, as he pretty much only posts on one topic: Russia, Russia, Russia. I can't for the life of me remember when Barbenheimer posted something on any other topic being discussed here. Not secular life, or science, or infidel humor. It's all about that Vlad.

So if he's being paid by Moscow to flood the internet with pro-Putin poo, this place is...an odd choice. If he's doing it here for free, that's even more odd. It would be a little helpful if Barbarella came clean with us and simply said "yes, I live in (insert Russian city here) and I'm a huge Putinista trying to convince you of his genius" but we don't even get that. Just official state talking points.

 

[Harry Bosch]

Whichever one Putin tells him.

We should keep this front of mind instead of treating babs as an independent agent advancing his own thoughts.

No, babs is a grown up with access to the same information you have and can reach his own conclusions. These are his thought. He believes the shit he spews.

I doubt it. He’s not a drooling moron; he knows NATO didn’t invade Ukraine (for example).

The only thing I don't get is...what's the end game here? Not in Ukraine (Putin wants to be the second coming of Peter The Great) but here at this forum.

I mean...this is not exactly a wildly popular corner of the internet. There are just over 2,000 members here, and dozens online at the moment. If I were trying to "move the meter" to the positive side on all things Russia by constantly posting the state's propaganda, I'd probably pick some other venue. But hey....maybe Barbarossa is aligned with our collective identity as irreligious infidels and thoroughgoing skeptics? Kinda hard to tell, as he pretty much only posts on one topic: Russia, Russia, Russia. I can't for the life of me remember when Barbenheimer posted something on any other topic being discussed here. Not secular life, or science, or infidel humor. It's all about that Vlad.

So if he's being paid by Moscow to flood the internet with pro-Putin poo, this place is...an odd choice. If he's doing it here for free, that's even more odd. It would be a little helpful if Barbarella came clean with us and simply said "yes, I live in (insert Russian city here) and I'm a huge Putinista trying to convince you of his genius" but we don't even get that. Just official state talking points.

I don't think that he's being paid by Putin. He doesn't totally toe the line. He was in the forum many years before the Russian invasion. I believe that he sincerely believes in the nonsense that he spews. I believe that he is sprouting an opinion that is probably held by a slight majority of Russians today.

 

[Cheerful Charlie]

Barbos is old enough he does not have to worry about being drafted as cannon fodder fighting Ukrainians. If he was, you can bet he would have a very different attitude about all of this and Pootie.

 

[Harry Bosch]

Barbos is old enough he does not have to worry about being drafted as cannon fodder fighting Ukrainians. If he was, you can bet he would have a very different attitude about all of this and Pootie.

Yea, that bothers the shit out of me. It's old people that start wars for the most part. And yet they don't have to serve.

 

[Ford]

Barbos is old enough he does not have to worry about being drafted as cannon fodder fighting Ukrainians. If he was, you can bet he would have a very different attitude about all of this and Pootie.

Yea, that bothers the shit out of me. It's old people that start wars for the most part. And yet they don't have to serve.

I mean, young people used to start wars. Barbie seems to think that Putin is some sort of world-spanning genius, but (checks Wikipedia) he was a low level KGB officer in East Germany at around the same age as Alexander the Great was when he died after conquering much of the known world. What gives?

(I fully admit that I'm intentionally poking our resident Russian bear, by the way, but really...)

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

Whichever one Putin tells him.

We should keep this front of mind instead of treating babs as an independent agent advancing his own thoughts.

No, babs is a grown up with access to the same information you have and can reach his own conclusions. These are his thought. He believes the shit he spews.

@barbos strongly reminds me of the bulk of Americans who believed what the Bush administration claimed, and the semi-official news agency Fox reported, during the lead up and early years of the USA invasion of Iraq.

The Iraqi government is a threat to U.S. security. Saddam Hussein is in league with Al Queda and has WMD. We'll be welcomed as liberators. It'll be over in a month.

Yeah, right.
Tom

This observation is right on the money. I remember those people. For the most part they were overly religious in my humble opinion and prone to paranoia. They swallowed the propaganda. I mean we had inspectors on the fucking ground in Iraq who could find nothing but they still wanted to suck Bush's balls. Who knows why some people can be so wrong. It's an emotional thing.

 

[Patooka]

Whichever one Putin tells him.

We should keep this front of mind instead of treating babs as an independent agent advancing his own thoughts.

No, babs is a grown up with access to the same information you have and can reach his own conclusions. These are his thought. He believes the shit he spews.

@barbos strongly reminds me of the bulk of Americans who believed what the Bush administration claimed, and the semi-official news agency Fox reported, during the lead up and early years of the USA invasion of Iraq.

The Iraqi government is a threat to U.S. security. Saddam Hussein is in league with Al Queda and has WMD. We'll be welcomed as liberators. It'll be over in a month.

Yeah, right.
Tom

And those people should be held accountable as well. In Australia it was even worse as Howard explicitly said if there was no clear evidence of WMDs, he would not support the invasion "despite how much I despise Saddam's regime", and then went balls deep anyways. I'm good friends with Phillip Ruddock's (Howard's AG) campaign manager at the time and I never let that go when Iraq comes up in conversation.

 

[TomC]

And those people should be held accountable as well.

Who is "those people"?

I live in a democratic republic, the USA.
I can't absolve myself completely, I was able to vote in 1980, and I did.
Tom

 

[Patooka]

Who is "those people"?

People who supported the invasion of Iraq, despite a plethora of evidence suggesting how much of a bad idea that would be. Mainly because I don't believe "they" were misinformed - "they" made "their" minds up and went off looking for articles supporting "their" facts.

Which is why I suspect the same people who endorsed the invasion of Iraq were a few years later convinced Obama was a gay Kenyan Muslim intent on bringing about sharia law. And now support QAnon.

Or if you want the short version; I believe supporters of the Iraq War are guilty of confirmation bias, have never been called out on it and as such are still doing it today in different contexts.

 

[Ford]

And those people should be held accountable as well. In Australia it was even worse as Howard explicitly said if there was no clear evidence of WMDs, he would not support the invasion "despite how much I despise Saddam's regime", and then went balls deep anyways. I'm good friends with Phillip Ruddock's (Howard's AG) campaign manager at the time and I never let that go when Iraq comes up in conversation.

But at least you can talk to him and hold his feet to the fire. I am old enough (and young enough) to know both US vets from the Vietnam and first Iraq wars, and am able to have...spirited disagreements about those respective wars. We agree to disagree, and that's the end of it. I don't have to worry about them going to some official and saying "hey, this Ford guy I know seems subversive and I think you should keep an eye on him" and next thing you know I'm looking into relocating to another country out of fear for my and my family's safety.

In the country where Barbacoa lives (I'm running out of clever nicknames) he has to think twice about criticizing the government. Here in the US or in Australia, we don't have that thing where reporters say "we've chosen to keep Patooka's last name hidden because he fears reprisals."

Barbecue (I'm really reaching here) doesn't live in that sort of place, and if he had some sort of revelation and - I dunno - joined a punk band where he had a song called "Fuck Putin Sideways" he'd be a target. I'm not excusing his endless repetition of the Kremlin's propaganda, but on some level I can see why he'd be reluctant to criticize the regime.

 

[Cheerful Charlie]

And those people should be held accountable as well.

Who is "those people"?

I live in a democratic republic, the USA.
I can't absolve myself completely, I was able to vote in 1980, and I did.
Tom

Project For The New American Century. The Neocon Scum that pitched the Iraq invasion to Bill Clinton and the George W. Bush.

Project for the New American Century - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

 

[Patooka]

But at least you can talk to him and hold his feet to the fire.

Not much of a much, but her feet to the fire.

In the country where Barbacoa lives (I'm running out of clever nicknames) he has to think twice about criticizing the government.

I'm not asking him to join Pussy Riot. And as far as I can see no one is forcing him to put on some pom poms and a skirt for Putin in, let's be fair here, a pretty fucking obscure part of the internet.

Barbecue (I'm really reaching here) doesn't live in that sort of place, and if he had some sort of revelation and - I dunno - joined a punk band where he had a song called "Fuck Putin Sideways" he'd be a target. I'm not excusing his endless repetition of the Kremlin's propaganda, but on some level I can see why he'd be reluctant to criticize the regime.

Last time I checked, barbos lives in the rural eastern part of Russia, where there is little or no scrutiny. Which makes his pathos even more confusing as one would expect him to scream about "Japan's unprovoked aggression towards the Kuril Islands" if he was a Putin bot. Nope, I believe he made the conscious decision to be a Putin Nationalist and actually expects to be treated as such.

 

[Ford]

Project For The New American Century. The Neocon Scum that pitched the Iraq invasion to Bill Clinton and the George W. Bush.

Thing is, in retrospect the PNAC is almost quaint. Like...the Enron scandal compared to the 2008 housing crash. Today's Republicans are looking at the Neocons from the 90s and thinking "oh you sweet summer child. We've moved beyond your naive notions of diplomacy." Seriously...some of the folks behind that debacle - Cheney, Bush, etc. - are saying that the worst thing that could happen to this country is that Trump gets back into office.

That should terrify every American.

 

[Patooka]

That should terrify every American.

It should fucking motivate them at the very least.

 

[bilby]

I believe that he is sprouting an opinion that is probably held by a slight majority of Russians today.

I had a Russian as a passenger about a week after the invasion started; She was absolutely convinced by the entire Russian propaganda campaign, despite living in Australia.

I think it's just an extension of the same tribalism that leads sports fans to be completely certain that the referees are biased against their team.

Many, likely most, Argentinians remain convinced that the infamous "Hand of God" goal was completely legitimate, despite the slow-motion footage being widely available.

What people believe about their tribe often has only the most tenuous link to reality.

Patriotism is, bizarrely, still seen by most people as some kind of virtue, rather than as a cognitive defect that renders them massively vulnerable to manipulation.

 

[barbos]

Another one drops. Elensky former BFF and spin doctor Arestovich says: "Yes, russians gave us a fabulous deal in Istanbul in March of 2022"
And now he claims Ukraine have about 100 desertions per day.
Elensky cancelled presidential election, but rumours say he will have elections if Zaluzhny agrees not to run.
Aluzhny currently have better rating than Elensky. Why all these guys have Z?

 

[barbos]

@barbos strongly reminds me of the bulk of Americans who believed what the Bush administration claimed, and the semi-official news agency Fox reported, during the lead up and early years of the USA invasion of Iraq.

I did not believe Bush at all. In fact I remember that day vividly. One of the professors visited that day and we obviously talked about it and agreed that was retarded idea.


insider talks about Bush administration.
And Clinton as well.
Apparently Clinton literally invited MIC heads to discuss NATO expansion into former Soviet Union Republics (except Russia)
Literally invited heads of Lockheed, Boeing and others.

 

[barbos]

Is it NATO of Ukraine that's wrecking trains in Russia?

Ukraine of course which is part of NATO, so NATO.

 

[barbos]

I had a Russian as a passenger about a week after the invasion started; She was absolutely convinced by the entire Russian propaganda campaign, despite living in Australia being subject to our propaganda

Fixed for you.

And it's way worse that you think, there are lot of australians and westerners like her.

 

[barbos]

By the way, Elensky announced that Summer offensive is over They go on defensive now