How should west respond to potential (likely) Russian invasion of Ukraine?

[Elixir]

Russian textbooks say Trump lost in rigged election

History books reportedly used in Russian schools push the former president's baseless claims of election fraud.

www.newsweek.com

When contacted for more information about the textbook, Sonin provided Newsweek with a PDF copy of the book. He also told Newsweek that he didn't doubt the authenticity of its contents and that the book's publication was announced earlier this year during a press conference by the book's authors and Sergei Kravstov, Russia's minister of education.

New job opportunity for barbos! When the intellectuals get rounded up and sent to die in Ukraine patriotically volunteer to fight against evil Ukrainian Nazi zombies, barbos can be a high school teacher educating young Russians with revisionist propagandistic bullshit glorious history about Great Mother Russia! Praise be to Putin!

Pretty compelling stuff. If I was a Russian, this would make me SO eager to go get myself blown to smithereens, I’d be breaking down the door of the conscription office. Don’t know how babs has missed out!

 

[Copernicus]

...

Russian textbooks say Trump lost in rigged election

History books reportedly used in Russian schools push the former president's baseless claims of election fraud.

www.newsweek.com

I especially liked that little political cartoon at the bottom of the page with the title "Knock out! Knock out!" The picture shows the world holding up the hands of both winners--George Bush and Mikhail Gorbachev. A defeated image of the Cold War lies on the mat. The image was published at the end of the Soviet era, before the collapse of the Soviet Union. All blame goes to Gorbachev, which is a very popular scapegoating meme in Russia. His concessions to the West allowed the US and EU to frame themselves as the victors in the Cold War--a very popular meme in the West. This perceived humiliation is what drives Putin's obsessive revanchist war to reclaim lost territory.

The reader of that section is then asked to answer the question "How did the Cold War end?" And the suggestion for discussion next to the cartoon is "Explain the concept of the picture." This is how political indoctrination works.

 

[Ford]

Ukraine F-16 Speculation Mounts as Russia Loses 8 Fighter Jets in 3 Weeks

In recent days, Russian-aligned or anti-Ukrainian Telegram channels have speculated that Ukraine may have made use of the advanced jets to take out key Russian assets, although there has been no confirmation that Ukraine has received the jets.

A U.S. source told Newsweek on Wednesday that it was likely Ukraine had indeed received the first of the promised F-16s.

...

"I hope the West has learned NOT to announce new weapons systems, as was done for the most part for the first 20 months of the war," said Daniel Rice, former special adviser to Ukraine's lead commander, General Valery Zaluzhny.


"Russian forces should learn 'the hard way' when Ukraine fields a new weapon," Rice, who is now president of American University Kyiv, told Newsweek.

We do need to do a better job of keeping our mouths shut when it comes to assisting Ukraine against Russian Hitler. Get them the weapons and let them do their jobs, which they have done exceedingly well.

I just read a few days ago their training in Britain was completed.

Yeah, I don't know if it is just the basic familiarization training. I think there is a combat maneuvers follow-on course.

It is also possible or even likely that the public timeline to get Ukrainian pilots trained up/planes delivered was itself disinformation. Russia thinks they have a few more months to prepare, and next thing you know their planes start becoming mysteriously susceptible to gravity.

Given that Ukraine has had some surprising victories (like taking out a significant portion of the Black Sea fleet despite having no navy) it isn't a stretch to believe that NATO has been playing a game of "fake out the feeble" for quite some time.

 

[Cheerful Charlie]

Another on bites the dust.

......
Vladimir Egorov, an ally of Russian President Vladimir Putin, was found dead on Wednesday, according to Russian state media.

Tobolsk City Duma deputy Egorov, 46, a member of Putin's ruling United Russia party, fell from the third-floor window of a house on Kedrovaya Street in Tobolsk in the Tyumen Oblast, Russian Telegram channel Baza, which has links to Russian security services, reported.
.....

Putin ally found dead after falling from third-floor window: Reports

Russian investigators are probing the death of Vladimir Egorov, a member of Vladimir Putin's ruling United Russia party.

www.newsweek.com

 

[ZiprHead]

Yeah, he "fell".

 

[Rhea]

They are executing people in public. ANd the world media is letting them pretend they aren’t.

 

[bilby]

It's snowy in Tobolsk, with maximum temperatures a degree or two below freezing.

Obviously, you'd want the windows open.

 

[ZiprHead]

Russia unleashes biggest air attack on Ukraine since start of full-scale invasion

Russia has launched the biggest air attack on Ukraine since the beginning of its full-scale invasion, the Ukrainian military told CNN, with an unprecedented number of drones and missiles fired at targets across the country, killing at least 31 people and injuring more than 150 others.

The wave of attacks began overnight into Friday and struck nationwide, with blasts reported in the capital Kyiv, as well as at a maternity hospital in the central city of Dnipro, the eastern city of Kharkiv, the southeastern port of Odesa, and the western city of Lviv, far from the frontlines.

The strikes continued Friday afternoon, Ukraine’s air force said, as a barrage of missiles targeted the northern Cherkasy region, with one hitting the city of Smilla. Other missiles were detected from Russia’s Kursk region heading towards the northeastern Ukrainian city of Sumy.


“It’s been a long time since we have seen so many enemy targets on our monitors in all regions and all directions,” Yurii Ihnat, spokesperson for Ukraine’s air force, told national television. “Everything was being fired.”

Russia used 158 drones and missiles, including hypersonic Kinzhal missiles, cruise missiles and Shahed drones, to strike targets in Kyiv, the east, south and west of the country, Ukraine’s air force said.

Desperation?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Russia has no choice but to defeat this US Proxy war. Otherwise Russia is no more.

Nobody's going to destroy Russia other than from internal problems.

Yep, that was the plan, create internal problems leading to destruction.
You CAN learn.

We aren't creating internal problems. You are with your invasion of Ukraine.

The west had been content to let the bear sleep. Until the perfect storm of your failed invasion of Ukraine allowed us to pull a whole bunch of bear teeth. You have stirred up enough hatred in the world that you won't be able to just peacefully go back to sleep when it's over, it's going to take a long time for the sanctions to go away and you've probably permanently tainted your oil/gas industry as nobody will want to be dependent on it anymore.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

At one point you took it by force.

Nope. go learn some history. You can do that, I know you can.

It is pretty clear your knowledge of history has some substantial gaps. When you find your understanding of the world to be very different than a whole bunch of people it's a good idea to go digging for the facts rather than dig in your heels and assume what you were taught in school was accurate. History classes in dictatorships are usually distorted.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

They have no choice.

Of course they have a choice, they can surrender and live happily ever after in Russia.

Happily ever after? It's clear that you intend to genocide them.

That's a stupidest thing you have said in a while.

You have been doing it in the areas where you captured Ukrainian civilians. Kill the men, kidnap the children.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Russia is also using more munitions than it can theoretically produce.

And? Nobody knows how much Russia can theoretically produce. The last guy who tried to find out is im Russian Prison.
Russia, right now produces more ammunition than the whole "Free" World combined. And ratio is only going to get worse for you.

Production capacity doesn't sit in isolation.

While obviously we have no way of knowing exactly how much industry there is in Russia we can approximate it by seeing what you're capable of producing. Wartime increases in production are to a substantial degree redirected effort from the civilian economy. Thus that gives a reasonable approximation.

Furthermore, we have the more obvious thing that we keep finding western hardware jerry-rigged into Russian equipment. Would you be rigging imported stuff into weapons if you had the indignous ability to produce it??

 

[bilby]

History classes in dictatorships are usually always distorted.

FTFY.

Granted, the problem is a little worse in dictatorships than in most democracies, but if you imagine that there's anywhere that has ever taught an unbiased history to school children, I have a bridge to sell you.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

The assets are frozen. They’ll remain frozen until Russia rejoins the civilized world and stops its imperialism. That will take a very long time. Why not put these assets to work? Help to rebuild Ukraine. If so, your side will benefit. Once the war is over, a rebuilt Ukraine could be very prosperous with a high tech workforce that could buy your gas. You gots to think long term comrade!

Russia's relationship with its neighbors has always been a reflection of its relationship with itself, one of violence and revolution. Has Russia ever had a relationship with a free neighbor that wasn't based on fear and aggression? China doesn't count because China is just another totalitarian shithole where citizens are subjugated, not empowered. When you have to build walls around your country to keep people in you know you're living in Fuckheadistan.

Yup. I have been in a fair number of countries. It's surprising how much you can learn about a country just from the airport and it's border policies. I only ever saw appreciable exit formalities in countries in the communist orbit. Mostly Moscow's orbit but China has more exit formalities than any free nation I have been in.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

History classes in dictatorships are usually always distorted.

FTFY.

Granted, the problem is a little worse in dictatorships than in most democracies, but if you imagine that there's anywhere that has ever taught an unbiased history to school children, I have a bridge to sell you.

But not to anywhere near the degree they are in dictatorships. My wife had no idea the bomb was used by anybody, anywhere. Nor was she aware of the Japanese biological attacks on China. (China is #1. Things which would expose that as not true were omitted.)

 

[DrZoidberg]

Russia is also using more munitions than it can theoretically produce.

And? Nobody knows how much Russia can theoretically produce. The last guy who tried to find out is im Russian Prison.
Russia, right now produces more ammunition than the whole "Free" World combined. And ratio is only going to get worse for you.

"You". My side is for general human prosperity and freedom. Whatever side in the war will lead to that is who I will back.

I'm not a nationalist. I don’t care about nations, national autonomy or even borders (other than its generally good not to change borders).

Putin is a classic fascist strongman. I will always be against autocrats. Why would anyone support such a guy?

Its a question of dedication. Russias entire combined economy is tiny, inefficient and underdeveloped. It has the capacity of output on par with Italy. If the west wanted to crush Russa, they could do so easily. Right now, the west is supporting Ukraine to a level where it won't hurt us economically. We don't have war time economies right now. Russia does. Russia is sacrificing future prosperity to win this. The west isn't. Even if Russia wins this war will be highly economically destructive for Russia for generations to come. Why is Putin doing this? Obviously, because he doesn't care about Russian prosperity. He only seems to care about staying in power

 

[Elixir]

Russia, right now produces more ammunition than the whole "Free" World combined.

What a claim to fame.
I think it's put to shame by Idaho's State motto, but hey - maybe that's just me.
What is notable above, is the admission that it is Russia against the free world - i.e. Russia is an oppressive regime.
Yes babs, we knew that.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

Its a question of dedication. Russias entire combined economy is tiny, inefficient and underdeveloped. It has the capacity of output on par with Italy. If the west wanted to crush Russa, they could do so easily. Right now, the west is supporting Ukraine to a level where it won't hurt us economically. We don't have war time economies right now. Russia does. Russia is sacrificing future prosperity to win this. The west isn't. Even if Russia wins this war will be highly economically destructive for Russia for generations to come. Why is Putin doing this? Obviously, because he doesn't care about Russian prosperity. He only seems to care about staying in power

The western democracies have feared Russian dictators because of the military power those dictators have possessed. We should be past that but we are not. We in the west should ask ourselves why we are so afraid of Russian dictators, the only trump card they have ever possessed. Maybe subconsciously we honestly are wary that Russia could develop into an actual economic juggernaut. It certainly has the potential in terms of resources but it's leaders have always been thieves and tyrants for the most part. Revolutions in Russia have always replaced one tyrant with another. We in the west could stop that in one generation if we were smart enough. We came close in the early 90's.

 

[Elixir]

We in the west should ask ourselves why we are so afraid of Russian dictators

Since the 50's it's been fear of getting nuked.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Its a question of dedication. Russias entire combined economy is tiny, inefficient and underdeveloped. It has the capacity of output on par with Italy. If the west wanted to crush Russa, they could do so easily. Right now, the west is supporting Ukraine to a level where it won't hurt us economically. We don't have war time economies right now. Russia does. Russia is sacrificing future prosperity to win this. The west isn't. Even if Russia wins this war will be highly economically destructive for Russia for generations to come. Why is Putin doing this? Obviously, because he doesn't care about Russian prosperity. He only seems to care about staying in power

The western democracies have feared Russian dictators because of the military power those dictators have possessed. We should be past that but we are not. We in the west should ask ourselves why we are so afraid of Russian dictators, the only trump card they have ever possessed. Maybe subconsciously we honestly are wary that Russia could develop into an actual economic juggernaut. It certainly has the potential in terms of resources but it's leaders have always been thieves and tyrants for the most part. Revolutions in Russia have always replaced one tyrant with another. We in the west could stop that in one generation if we were smart enough. We came close in the early 90's.

Nukes. That's the reason. Russia has lots of fully operational long range ballistic nukes that can strike any target in Europe at any time.