How should west respond to potential (likely) Russian invasion of Ukraine?

[ZiprHead]

Russia Has Already Lost the War

Right-wing apologists for Putin have been saying that Russia will eventually win the war in Ukraine. �They argue that Russia will prevail because they have a larger population, economy, and military ...

www.dailykos.com

Right-wing apologists for Putin have been saying that Russia will eventually win the war in Ukraine. They argue that Russia will prevail because they have a larger population, economy, and military than Ukraine. That may all be true, but what is also true is that the Ukraine war has turned into an unmitigated disaster for Russia.

Putin’s vanity project of trying to seize Ukraine in three days failed miserably. Instead of admitting defeat, Putin doubled down and essentially committed the Russian military to fight an attritional campaign against Ukraine.

Putin has only succeeded in attritting the Russian military. Their losses have been nothing short of catastrophic. Undermanned and outgunned, the Ukrainian military has managed (if the numbers are to be believed) to kill or wounded over 560,000 soldiers, destroyed over 15,000 artillery systems, 8,000 tanks, 15,000 armored personnel vehicles, as well more than 22,000 pieces of other ground-based equipment. This totals over 60,000 pieces of equipment lost. The Russians also lost 28 ships to a country with no Navy. In addition, Russia has lost 361 aircraft and 326 helicopters in the bargain. Even if these numbers have been inflated, cutting the estimates of losses in half still would yield staggering results.

The Russian military has only made minimal advances across the front and is no closer to a breakthrough. The Russians have resorted to using vengeance weapons of rockets, glide bombs, and drones against Ukrainian civilians to break their spirit. Any student of military history will tell you that vengeance weapons only steel the population's resolve.

Putin and his people claim that Russia will not stop fighting until they conquer all of Ukraine. But this goal is totally unrealistic. They don’t have the money or the troops to secure a country of over 37 million people that will be very hostile to a Russian occupation.

The definition of insanity is doing the same thing repeatedly and expecting different results. Russia sends over a thousand soldiers to be wounded or killed and loses well over a hundred pieces of equipment every single day. For their effort, the Russians seize a bombed-out non-strategic hamlet or town if they make any advances at all; ergo, the Russian army can’t make major advances, and Putin won’t retreat because he can’t admit defeat.

 

[barbos]

Doesn't mean they're controlling things, though.

Come on, who would not like to sit in some chair in Ukraine and control things?
It probably took CIA director hours to get there after the coup.

 

[ZiprHead]

Doesn't mean they're controlling things, though.

Come on, who would not like to sit in some chair in Ukraine and control things?
It probably took CIA director hours to get there after the coup.

Stupid conjecture. Your standard Nazi routine.

 

[barbos]

100% of weapons Regime in Kiev use is from the West.
Russia no longer use Iranian drones and NK ammunition was merely tried and turned out not great.

Sorry man, you are not winning. But if you think you are, keep doing it, I am not going to interfere

They're making their own drones, it's only the heavy stuff we are sending.

Only?
You sound almost as if Ukraine does not need your "help"

 

[barbos]

Doesn't mean they're controlling things, though.

Come on, who would not like to sit in some chair in Ukraine and control things?
It probably took CIA director hours to get there after the coup.

Stupid conjecture. Your standard Nazi routine.

No, not a conjecture, just a simple historical fact. And nazi is your side.

 

[ZiprHead]

Putin ‘peddling lies’ about ailing Russian economy, say EU ministers

Group of finance ministers call for sanctions to be ratcheted up amid signs Moscow’s war machine is weakening

www.theguardian.com

Academic economist falls out of window of her apartment in Moscow

The injuries that the woman received as a result of the fall were incompatible with life.

english.pravda.ru

 

[SLD]

I thought that this was an interesting response. Are you trying to say that Russia isn't losing any soldiers in Ukraine?

That's not what you said. You talked trash about Putin and Russia.

Russia does lose men, but a lot less than Ukrainian Regime.

Really? And you still can’t conquer them? Dude, your army sucks. They’re doing so great at killing Ukrainians, but they can’t take any territory? Are they cowards? Afraid to move forward? So it would seem.

 

[steve_bank]

The EU and NATO is about mutually assured prosperity and security over centuries of ruinous conflict.

Instead of worrying about a neighbor invading one can kick back in the hot tub sniping wine.

International rule of law and courts to settle disputes. Russia and China want no part of the order, an order which has allowed for China's rise from a disastrous Maoism to a modern economic power. Western investment and technology.

Russia under Putin is making Russia a backwater. Other than nukes Russia made itself irrelevant'

Whie the US and China are adversaries in many ways we just got loaned two giant pandas at a zoo. Happens once in a while. Chinese shows tour periodically. The is a Disneyland in China.

Tourism both ways.

But there are bumps in the road.

Beijing suspended the broadcast of NBA games in 2019 after Daryl Morey, then general manager of the Houston Rockets team, tweeted in support of anti-government protests in Hong Kong. Chinese state television only resumed broadcasting games about a year later.Feb 23, 2024

Every year in China town a few blocks from where I live there is the China town parade with the requisite Dragon Dance. Very popular in Seattle.

Point being our cultural mix dispite the adversarial nature pf poliics.

Russia? There is a Russian Orthodox church and maybe a restaurant or two, but little else.

Other than Ukraine and Putin Americas see little of Russia whatever it is. Our media can not talk to and freely report on Russians from Russia.

The Russian Federation is a black hole I have no interest in knowing about. Russian culture seems to be inbred and decline.

Barbos represents the old us vs them Soviet mentality. Putin echos it. Maybe Russians really believe the west would have or will invade, not going to happen. War is too disruptive and the majority of western Europeans live good lives.

Soccer has become a popular American sport and basketball has spread globally. Russian does not seem to mix in the global cultural flow.

People know major landmarks in Europe, China, and Japan. Not so much Russia.

Lack of familiarity breeds fear. Without a global cultural mix Putin controls what people think about the world.

 

[steve_bank]

Barbos good buddy, can you post a link to a site hosted in Russia where I can express my views on Russia and Putin?

 

[aupmanyav]

Spies keep an eye on things ..

And try to manipulate if ordered to do so. Yeah, spies everywhere.

 

[barbos]

I thought that this was an interesting response. Are you trying to say that Russia isn't losing any soldiers in Ukraine?

That's not what you said. You talked trash about Putin and Russia.

Russia does lose men, but a lot less than Ukrainian Regime.

Really? And you still can’t conquer them? Dude, your army sucks. They’re doing so great at killing Ukrainians, but they can’t take any territory? Are they cowards? Afraid to move forward? So it would seem.

Yes, really. No, our army does not suck. Even your NATO forces chief does not think they suck, even Ukro-Wehrmacht chief does not think so. Yes we are doing great killing ukrainian soldiers. And territory will come later, it actually started to come already. No, we are not cowards, we are simply not stupid.

 

[barbos]

Barbos good buddy, can you post a link to a site hosted in Russia where I can express my views on Russia and Putin?

You can do it here, I report all of you to Putin.

 

[barbos]

Putin ‘peddling lies’ about ailing Russian economy, say EU ministers

Group of finance ministers call for sanctions to be ratcheted up amid signs Moscow’s war machine is weakening

www.theguardian.com

Academic economist falls out of window of her apartment in Moscow

The injuries that the woman received as a result of the fall were incompatible with life.

english.pravda.ru

Yes, everybody knows we can trust EU ministers

 

[bilby]

Other than nukes Russia made itself irrelevant

Assuming that Russia even still has nukes, and the capability to deliver them to foreign targets.

Both are doubtful; Their bombers and submarines were obsolete forty years ago, and if their missiles and warheads have been maintained as effectively and efficiently as the rest of their armed forces, they are no longer a threat to anyone but their operators.

I mean, up until February 2022, everyone thought Russia had a formidable conventional military. Today we think they have a fearsome nuclear arsenal - but do they, really?

They last exploded a nuclear device in October 1990, back when there was still a Soviet Union. I wouldn't bet my bottom dollar that they still can today.

 

[steve_bank]

Barbos good buddy, can you post a link to a site hosted in Russia where I can express my views on Russia and Putin?

You can do it here, I report all of you to Putin.

Yep, there are no Russian sites where I can speak freely as you do here. Same with China, things we say here about China would be purged from Chinese social media.

 

[barbos]

Barbos good buddy, can you post a link to a site hosted in Russia where I can express my views on Russia and Putin?

You can do it here, I report all of you to Putin.

Yep, there are no Russian sites where I can speak freely as you do here. Same with China, things we say here about China would be purged from Chinese social media.

There is a difference between speaking freely and free to lie.

 

[barbos]

Other than nukes Russia made itself irrelevant

Assuming that Russia even still has nukes, and the capability to deliver them to foreign targets.

Both are doubtful; Their bombers and submarines were obsolete forty years ago, and if their missiles and warheads have been maintained as effectively and efficiently as the rest of their armed forces, they are no longer a threat to anyone but their operators.

I mean, up until February 2022, everyone thought Russia had a formidable conventional military. Today we think they have a fearsome nuclear arsenal - but do they, really?

They last exploded a nuclear device in October 1990, back when there was still a Soviet Union. I wouldn't bet my bottom dollar that they still can today.

A guy in Australia is trying to make Russia test their nukes on US.

 

[barbos]

3 men ran away from gestapo kidnappers when van stopped at gas station

В сеть попали кадры успешного побега украинцев от военкомов - Газета.Ru | Новости

Украинцы сбежали из автомобиля ТЦК на заправке. Об этом сообщает издание «Страна.ua», приводя кадры побега, которые сняли камеры видеонаблюдения.

www.gazeta.ru

Women on a bus in Odessa talking trash to gestapo kidnappers. They speak russian in case you wonder:

В Одессе произошел новый конфликт населения с военкомами - Газета.Ru | Новости

Жители Одессы снова устроили перепалку с сотрудниками ТЦК в автобусе. Об этом сообщает украинское издание «Страна.ua».

www.gazeta.ru

 

[barbos]

Barbos good buddy, can you post a link to a site hosted in Russia where I can express my views on Russia and Putin?

You can do it here, I report all of you to Putin.

Yep, there are no Russian sites where I can speak freely as you do here. Same with China, things we say here about China would be purged from Chinese social media.

There is a difference between speaking freely and free to lie.

Yeah, there is a cultural difference between the West and Russia. In the West, especially in US you have a tradition of free speech. Which basically means everyone is free to speak whatever they want and ..... everybody else is free to ignore you.
That's basically your way of having utterly incompatible ideas to coexist.
In Russia we don't really have that. You better be right when you open your pie hole. It's reflected in russian expression "Отвечать за базар" which actually come from criminal subculture but it applies in general too. We are different and I find it annoying when people don't listen/ignore, but that's your way of dealing with inconvenient "free" speech.
There are advantages and disadvantages in both ways.

 

[steve_bank]

Barbos good buddy, can you post a link to a site hosted in Russia where I can express my views on Russia and Putin?

You can do it here, I report all of you to Putin.

Yep, there are no Russian sites where I can speak freely as you do here. Same with China, things we say here about China would be purged from Chinese social media.

There is a difference between speaking freely and free to lie.

The crux of the issue of free speech.

Who says what is true and what is not true? In Russia right now it is Putin.

In the west there are some restrictions on speech but it is up to the individual to determine what is true and false. Not the government or a dictator.

Everyone has a voice these days.

We believe it should all get worked out in the 'market pace of ideas'.

Du bring the Cod War there was an on above ground Communist Party free to say and publish as it saw fit. I think they had a few candidates in elections. Communism was rejected and never took root.

Of course it is not perfect, but we have few limits n speech to ensure all voices are heard.

The question of freedomss and speech had a long evolutionary path in Europe. The Russian revolution wet from a monarchy to a dictatorship.

Russia had no such evolution of thought. The issues had been debated in colonial America well before the revolution. And at hat free speech as we have it today began with the civil rights and free speech movements in the 60s 70s. Was it Marx who said the revolution never ends?

Russia appears to be a stagnant system isolated from changes in the rst of the world.