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How should west respond to potential (likely) Russian invasion of Ukraine?

An Ukrainian missile apparently hit some houses in Belgorod, with civilian casualties. Possibly due to being intercepted by air defenses, possibly due to just missing whatever the target was. It's not impossible that this was a Russian missile either, but I don't think so.

Russia will likely milk this for everything it can, and try to claim it was done with American HIMARS, which Ukraine promised not to use against Russia. In reality it was probably a soviet-era cruise missile. But as far as I know, Ukraine hasn't commented or admitted to striking Russia before, which means Russia can frame the story first and then Ukraine has to either ignore it or break their habit and comment it somehow.
 
Russia lost another traditional ally in Bulgaria. Russian embassy staff are leaving the country:


Is there another country in the history of the planet that so covets respect and friendship from local countries and border countries; does everything that it can to antagonize its neighbors; then has absolutely no idea why they aren't liked?!!! I think that if we really wanted world peace to move forward, that the world would send an army of volunteer psychologists to teach the Russian leadership human nature and how to win friends!
 
Perhaps, in the end, Putin will discover that the real special military operation was the friends that he made along the way?
 
Russia lost another traditional ally in Bulgaria. Russian embassy staff are leaving the country:


Is there another country in the history of the planet that so covets respect and friendship from local countries and border countries; does everything that it can to antagonize its neighbors; then has absolutely no idea why they aren't liked?!!! I think that if we really wanted world peace to move forward, that the world would send an army of volunteer psychologists to teach the Russian leadership human nature and how to win friends!
We could chip in enough to send Dale Carnegies' book to Putin.
 
Russia lost another traditional ally in Bulgaria. Russian embassy staff are leaving the country:


Is there another country in the history of the planet that so covets respect and friendship from local countries and border countries; does everything that it can to antagonize its neighbors; then has absolutely no idea why they aren't liked?!!! I think that if we really wanted world peace to move forward, that the world would send an army of volunteer psychologists to teach the Russian leadership human nature and how to win friends!
We could chip in enough to send Dale Carnegies' book to Putin.
I was going to say, How to Win Friends and Influence People must have gotten a piss-poor translation into Russian.
 

Video in the link. Only one of four bombs actually hit the island.

It may seem like a crazy idea to waste four phosphorus bombs on a deserted island, but consider it from the pilot's perspective: little risk of being shot down. It was a goodwill gesture from the Russian military's perspectives, because they weren't trying to murder civilians with those bombs.

They were trying to destroy equipment that got left behind. It's a reasonable military target and there isn't likely to be a Stinger threat there.
 
Is there another country in the history of the planet that so covets respect and friendship from local countries and border countries; does everything that it can to antagonize its neighbors; then has absolutely no idea why they aren't liked?!!!
I was going to say “The United States of America”, but they have no idea that they aren’t liked.
 
Is there another country in the history of the planet that so covets respect and friendship from local countries and border countries; does everything that it can to antagonize its neighbors; then has absolutely no idea why they aren't liked?!!!
I was going to say “The United States of America”, but they have no idea that they aren’t liked.
To be fair, Australia is living in one mighty fine glass house in this regard as well. South East Asia agrees with me.
 
Is there another country in the history of the planet that so covets respect and friendship from local countries and border countries; does everything that it can to antagonize its neighbors; then has absolutely no idea why they aren't liked?!!!
I was going to say “The United States of America”, but they have no idea that they aren’t liked.
To be fair, Australia is living in one mighty fine glass house in this regard as well. South East Asia agrees with me.
It just seems to me that everyone is focused so much on being powerful that they don't seem to understand that they should be empowering instead.
 
Is there another country in the history of the planet that so covets respect and friendship from local countries and border countries; does everything that it can to antagonize its neighbors; then has absolutely no idea why they aren't liked?!!!
I was going to say “The United States of America”, but they have no idea that they aren’t liked.

I'd like to believe that Barbos is an idiot.

That the USA couldn't possibly have meddled in Ukrainian affairs, or started a proxy war, while lying the whole time. Because we have freedom of speech, and a transparent government who would never do any such heinous things.

But I know better. I know people who still believe that the U.S. invasion of Iraq was necessary, because Saddam Hussein was a part of Alqeda and a security threat to the USA and we were going in there to rescue the Iraqi people from a vicious tyrant. Bush was our leader and nearly all of rallied around.

20 years later, and many people around here still believe that. It doesn't surprise me that Russians respond similarly to Putin.

There are very good reasons that the USA is considered The Great Satan. But most Americans don't want to see them.
Tom
 


The guy with good analysis of total collapse of ukrainian "defense" around Severodonetsk.

Also talks about lithuanian debacle I mentioned before. These small "countries" with populations of average city or Chinese village clearly don't have brain power to predict consequences of their idiotic actions.

Prepare for Lithuanian Oblast of Russia.

What does "prepare for Lithuanian Oblast of Russia mean? As an aside, the next sanction meant to hurt Russia is the banning of Russian gold, just announced this morning. Somehow the world needs to find a way to stop Russian imperialism. Talks aren't going to work.

It means what it says.
EU critters told Lithunian idiots to back off of Kalinigrad. If they don't, they all (Lithuania/Latvia/Estonia) will be royally screwed and there is nothing NATO would do about it.
Anyway, Lithunian idiots are backing off.
 
Russia may eventually "win" the unprovoked, murderous, and despicable invasion of it's neighbor.
You forgot about 8 years of murderous provocations from nazi regime in Ukraine.
Both sides killed each other during that time. But it was Russia's unprovoked invasion of Ukraine in 2014 that got the ball rolling.

ETA: By "unprovoked", I mean that Ukraine did nothing that would warrant an invasion by another country. Deposing Yanukovich wasn't it. Odessa clashes and deaths weren't it. The new language laws weren't it. And whatever other imaginary things Russian propagandists made up certainly weren't it.
Enough with this "both sides" crap.
Ukrainian nazi started bombing Eastern Ukraine civilians on the day one they said "We are out!"
 
Russia may eventually "win" the unprovoked, murderous, and despicable invasion of it's neighbor.
You forgot about 8 years of murderous provocations from nazi regime in Ukraine.
Both sides killed each other during that time. But it was Russia's unprovoked invasion of Ukraine in 2014 that got the ball rolling.

ETA: By "unprovoked", I mean that Ukraine did nothing that would warrant an invasion by another country. Deposing Yanukovich wasn't it. Odessa clashes and deaths weren't it. The new language laws weren't it. And whatever other imaginary things Russian propagandists made up certainly weren't it.
Enough with this "both sides" crap.
Ukrainian nazi started bombing Eastern Ukraine civilians on the day one they said "We are out!"
As if the "people's republics" are anything but Russian puppets. :rolleyes: The people living there didn't want out, only the FSB installed terrorists like Igor Girkin. And of course, a bunch of Russian nazis who were looking for a fight.

Both sides have nazis, and on both sides they are fringe groups. For example, that Donetsk bombing in 2014 that you've brought up, was done by air. That means official air force of Ukraine, who are not nazis, and by order of Poroshenko, who is also not a nazi. The Azov battalion dídn't have planes or pilots, and still don't. But in Russian propaganda, all 40+ million Ukrainians have been transformed to vile nazis with swastika tattoos, which is obviously false to anyone with half a brain cell.

You're right though that "both sides" talk when it comes to atrocities is uncalled for: Russia is orders of magnitude worse than Ukraine in this regard. For every civilian Ukraine killed, Russia has killed a hundred.
 
Russia lost another traditional ally in Bulgaria.
Bulgarian puppet regime has not been Russia's ally for ages.
bulgarian people are still on Russia's side.
No, they don't. Not anymore.


Over 75% of the Bulgarians surveyed see Russia’s invasion of Ukraine as unjustified. Ukraine President Volodymyr Zelenskiy, who was completely unknown to Bulgarians until recently, was approved by 40%, and 29% had a negative opinion of him. This is despite pro-Russian propaganda on social networks.

Despite propaganda and fake news, the EU’s unprecedented and unified move in imposing sanctions on Russia is seen as the right policy by 63% of Bulgarian citizens, with 32% opposed.
 
The Royal United Services Institute published an interesting analysis yesterday about Ukraine's and Russia's capabilities, and how the west should best help the former:


I highly recommend reading it, or at least the summary.

The key point is that Russia has very good artillery, which Ukraine is struggling to deal with, but certain western weapons systems could help blunt the Russian advantage:

1. Multiple Launch Rocket Systems, with guided munitions. USA just delivered first four HIMARS systems to Ukraine a little over week ago, and they're already showing promising results: Almost every night there is an ammunition depot or two blowing up, and because they "shoot and scoot", Russia hasn't been able to do anything about it. The number of such systems is going to increase, but eventually, Russia will get lucky and be able to destroy some of them too, and Russia has probably hundreds of ammunition dumps all over the occupied territory which means that it will not run out of ammo, but might become constrained locally by the logistics. And the obvious counter is to just have more smaller depots instead of large ones, which I'm pretty sure Russia is in the process of doing.

With guided munitions, Ukraine won't need UAVs to correct fire, unlike most Russian systems, but the downside is of course that the targets need to be stationary. I think it's pretty obvious that NATO or the US is analysing satellite images to provide Ukraine with targets, though of course nobody wants to say so publicly to avoid escalation. Local informants might help as well. But MLRS probably won't help with mobile artillery systems. I do hope they can at some point start hitting Russian SAM batteries though.

2. Suicide drones for taking out Russian Electronic Warfare units. The importance of EW on Russian side was new to me at least: based on the paper, they're able to pretty much deny the airspace to Ukrainian drones over the front line, which means that Ukraine doesn't know what they should be hitting, and can't correct fire like Russia can with its Orlan-10 drone. But what's even more amazing is the simplicity of the solution: The west just needs to come up with a simple sensor and guidance system that homes in on Russian jamming signals, and then put that in cheap drones with explosives. If Russian EW units can be disabled, Ukraine could fly their own drones and drastically improve their ability to do counter-battery fire or ground maneuvers.

3. On the other hand, Russian drones are a huge problem for Ukraine. They're embedded with the artillery units, so that if a drone sees a target, it can hit it within a few minutes, as opposed to half and hour or so that it takes for other means. The article does mention Starstreak and Martler missiles as being useful, but they're hardly cost-effective: googling the prices, Starstreak costs about $3 million and Martlet $1.5 million, compared to Orlan drone that's less than $100k (and given the simplicity of Orlan-10, I'm pretty sure that even if that's the public price, the actual cost to manufacture is way less). And Russia has thousands of Orlan drones. The article doesn't really go into more detail about this problem, so I wonder if any cheaper systems could be used to detect and shoot down the drones.

Heat seeking missiles like Stinger or their soviet counterparts are nearly useless, because the small drones don't have big enough infrared signature for the missile to lock on to.

Finally, the report suggests that the west should train Ukrainian troops to be able to carry about large scale counter-offensives. I'm a bit skeptical how realistic it is to do that in less than several years or decades. And this is why I think that even though Ukraine might be able to stop Russia, it will have a very hard time doing counter-attacks and retake land that is already occupied. The best that Ukraine can hope for is to stop the Russian advance, and then negotiate a peace deal with reasonable security guarantees.
 
The best that Ukraine can hope for is to stop the Russian advance, and then negotiate a peace deal with reasonable security guarantees.
There are NO guarantees when dealing with Russia.
They already "guaranteed" Ukraine's sovereignty in exchange for giving up their nukes.
Russia's guarantees are not worth the oxygen they spend lying about them.
 
The best that Ukraine can hope for is to stop the Russian advance, and then negotiate a peace deal with reasonable security guarantees.
There are NO guarantees when dealing with Russia.
They already "guaranteed" Ukraine's sovereignty in exchange for giving up their nukes.
Russia's guarantees are not worth the oxygen they spend lying about them.
Totally agree. Russian word is shit.
 
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The best that Ukraine can hope for is to stop the Russian advance, and then negotiate a peace deal with reasonable security guarantees.
There are NO guarantees when dealing with Russia.
They already "guaranteed" Ukraine's sovereignty in exchange for giving up their nukes.
Russia's guarantees are not worth the oxygen they spend lying about them.
The guarantees would have to be based on something other than Russia's pinky promise. Such as NATO air patrols, or that Russia withdraws behind borders that Ukraine can easily defend. For example, Russian presence in Kherson city on east side of Dnipro is unacceptable, but if Russia withdrew behind the river, it would form a natural barrier that would make it very hard to cross again.
 
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