How should west respond to potential (likely) Russian invasion of Ukraine?

[aupmanyav]

Duh. Nobody is prohibiting Russia or China from expanding their influence. Doing it militarily violates international law.
Invading a country, destroying its infrastructure, murdering its citizens and planting your flag in their soil is NOT “expansion of influence”. You and Modi would be horrified if equal ”influence” was meted out to Russia.

Russia does not have options. It is activating its nuclear bases, may give some bombs to North Korea. China is certainly expanding its influence with its money as well as its nuclear pile (it is supposed to be 500 now). Do you think nations at war worry about international law?

 

[Elixir]

Russia does not have options.

Sure it does. It can go home, let Ukrainians go home, and live un-bothered forever and ever amen. Pootey fucking CHOOSES CONQUEST in pursuit of riches, including 40% of the world’s supply of grain.
He could still go home and lose nothing - except maybe his job and his life, for the massive fuckup he has undertaken. “The West” isn’t going to allow it. He can pray for Trump and that’s about all he can do.

 

[ZiprHead]

You're not wrong. You're absolutely not wrong. However one of those two is making a decision and surrounding himself with younger people who have fresh ideas. "New Blood", you might say.

Yes, new blood with fresh ideas about how to start nuclear war.

Putin is the only one to have threatened to use nukes over the Ukraine war.

That's patently false. The first one was your demented president when early on, during war, said "F-16 in Ukraine means nuclear war" Russia said nothing. Then your media started campaign of lies claiming that Russia threatens to use nuclear weapons in Ukraine (no such thing was even remotely implied by the Russian side). Then your demented president agreed to send F-16s (which according to him meant nuclear war). Russia conducted tactical nukes drills in responce.
Sorry dude, it's you not us.

Nope. That was Poostain that said that.

Russia warns Ukraine's F-16s will be treated as nuclear threats

The Russian government said it "cannot ignore" that the planes have the potential to deliver nuclear weapons.

www.newsweek.com

 

[Elixir]

Nope. That was Poostain that said that.

Russia warns Ukraine's F-16s will be treated as nuclear threats

The Russian government said it "cannot ignore" that the planes have the potential to deliver nuclear weapons.

www.newsweek.com

Go ahead Pootey, treat them however you like. And they will return the favor.

 

[ZiprHead]

No, I didn't.

Yes, you did. You and president of Finland both did.
Every time you say "Slava Ukraina" you are praising ..... nazis.
Because "Slava Ukraina" was a part of nazi Salute during WW2. Just saying.

Glory Ukraine is nazi now?

Yes. it's a part of nazi salute, unfortunately.
One nazi says "Glory to Ukraine"
another should reply "Glory to heroes"
And they both proceed to murdering poles, jews, and commies.
And before you are going to say it's very generic statement and such. No, it's not, in the context it is used in Ukraine now it is pretty specific reference to WW2 ukro-nazi - Bandera and his gang.
So when your imbecile Trudeau during group photo at G7 shouts out his stupid "Slava Ukraine" he is basically shouting out "Heil Hitler"
And you are not going to get much sympathy for that in Russia.

 

[ZiprHead]

Medvedev calls Biden senile old geezer. And Trudeau a blockhead, referring to his nazi salute-greeting during group photo.

Oooh, and Putin is a poopy head.

 

[bilby]

It's no different than the Cold War.

It’s like the Cold War, but with more genocide and Property Damage

It's still not recommended to brush your teeth with Vietnamese water, due to the Agent Orange residue. What caracterised the cold war was proxy wars, just like the one in Ukraine

I don't think Ukraine is a proxy war. In Vietnam, it was a clear proxy war between China and the USA. In Ukraine, it's a direct war between Russia and Ukraine, with Ukraine getting limited materiel assistance from a basket of nations who have an interest in containing Russia, and Russia getting similar assistance from places like Iran, China, and India.

But it would be absurd to characterise the Ukraine War as a proxy war between (say) the Netherlands and Iran.

The idea that NATO, as an organisation, has anything to do with the war in Ukraine is Putinist propaganda nonsense. Putin's mindset is thirty-five years out-of-date, and he wants everyone else to accept his absurd claim that this is a new Cold War.

But it's not; It's just an old fashioned colonial war between a powerful nation and a smaller neighbour, in which the agressor underestimated both the resolve of their victim, and the ability of their victim to get assistance from nations whose interest is in preventing agression and expansionism from being a viable strategy.

 

[bilby]

You're not wrong. You're absolutely not wrong. However one of those two is making a decision and surrounding himself with younger people who have fresh ideas. "New Blood", you might say.

Yes, new blood with fresh ideas about how to start nuclear war.

Putin is the only one to have threatened to use nukes over the Ukraine war.

That's patently false. The first one was your demented president when early on, during war, said "F-16 in Ukraine means nuclear war" Russia said nothing. Then your media started campaign of lies claiming that Russia threatens to use nuclear weapons in Ukraine (no such thing was even remotely implied by the Russian side). Then your demented president agreed to send F-16s (which according to him meant nuclear war). Russia conducted tactical nukes drills in responce.
Sorry dude, it's you not us.

Nope. That was Poostain that said that.

Russia warns Ukraine's F-16s will be treated as nuclear threats

The Russian government said it "cannot ignore" that the planes have the potential to deliver nuclear weapons.

www.newsweek.com

My car has the potential to deliver nuclear weapons.

 

[ZiprHead]

You're not wrong. You're absolutely not wrong. However one of those two is making a decision and surrounding himself with younger people who have fresh ideas. "New Blood", you might say.

Yes, new blood with fresh ideas about how to start nuclear war.

Putin is the only one to have threatened to use nukes over the Ukraine war.

That's patently false. The first one was your demented president when early on, during war, said "F-16 in Ukraine means nuclear war" Russia said nothing. Then your media started campaign of lies claiming that Russia threatens to use nuclear weapons in Ukraine (no such thing was even remotely implied by the Russian side). Then your demented president agreed to send F-16s (which according to him meant nuclear war). Russia conducted tactical nukes drills in responce.
Sorry dude, it's you not us.

Nope. That was Poostain that said that.

Russia warns Ukraine's F-16s will be treated as nuclear threats

The Russian government said it "cannot ignore" that the planes have the potential to deliver nuclear weapons.

www.newsweek.com

My car has the potential to deliver nuclear weapons.

Imagine how many you could get into that bus.

 

[ZiprHead]

Russians line up to buy US dollars as ruble plummets after new sanctions

Post-Soviet and international politics expert Jason Jay Smart said the "ruble is collapsing" in response to news of lines forming at money changers in Russia.

www.newsweek.com

Russians lined up to purchase U.S. dollars after the Moscow Exchange enforced an immediate suspension of trading in dollars and euros in response to fresh U.S. sanctions, a video circulating on social media appears to show.

Russia's central bank said Wednesday that exchange trading and settlements of deliverable instruments in U.S. dollars and euros were suspended effective June 13 "due to the introduction of restrictive measures by the United States against the Moscow Exchange Group." It added that over-the-counter trading data would be used to set official exchange rates for the currencies.

The move followed the U.S. Treasury's expansion of an executive order issued by President Joe Biden in December that allows Washington to directly sanction foreign banks facilitating significant transactions for Russia. The U.S. threatened to block banks that conduct business with firms that support Russia's defense industry from its financial system.

"In St. Petersburg, a line formed at a [money] exchanger after the news about the suspension of currency trading on the Moscow Exchange," Russian Telegram channel Bankrollo wrote, sharing footage of people in a queue. Bankrollo has more than 300,000 subscribers and posts updates about Russia's economy and banks.

 

[ZiprHead]

Vladimir Putin lays out terms for Ukraine ceasefire

Ukraine immediately branded the Russian president's proposals "offensive to common sense".

www.bbc.com

Vladimir Putin has said Ukraine would need to withdraw troops from territories Russia claims to have annexed before a ceasefire could begin - a proposal Ukraine's president called a Hitler-like "ultimatum".
Volodymyr Zelensky has long said Ukraine will not negotiate with Moscow until Russian forces leave all Ukrainian territory, including Crimea.
The Russian president also said Ukraine would have to give up on joining Nato before peace talks could start.
Mr Putin's statement setting out his ceasefire conditions comes as leaders from 90 countries prepare to meet in Switzerland on Saturday to discuss paths towards peace in Ukraine - a summit Russia has not been invited to.
Speaking to a meeting of Russian ambassadors in Moscow on Friday, Mr Putin called on the Ukrainian government to withdraw from four regions partially occupied by Russia - Donetsk, Luhansk, Kherson and Zaporizhzhia.
He also said Ukraine would need to officially give up in its efforts to join the Nato military alliance for the Russian advance to be halted.
Mr Putin said: "As soon as Kyiv declares that it is ready for such a decision... an order to cease fire and begin negotiations will immediately follow from our side, literally at the same minute."

Something left out of the BBC article:

The Russian leader’s broader demands included cementing Ukraine’s “neutral, nonaligned, nonnuclear status” and lifting all Western sanctions against Russia. Putin also doubled down on the ill-defined goals of “denazifying and demilitarizing” Ukraine, aims that he used as pretexts for the invasion in February 2022, essentially signaling that his proposed deal envisions a de facto unconditional surrender of Ukraine.

WAPO Link

Essentially the same offer they made years ago.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

You're not wrong. You're absolutely not wrong. However one of those two is making a decision and surrounding himself with younger people who have fresh ideas. "New Blood", you might say.

Yes, new blood with fresh ideas about how to start nuclear war.

Putin is the only one to have threatened to use nukes over the Ukraine war.

That's patently false. The first one was your demented president when early on, during war, said "F-16 in Ukraine means nuclear war" Russia said nothing. Then your media started campaign of lies claiming that Russia threatens to use nuclear weapons in Ukraine (no such thing was even remotely implied by the Russian side). Then your demented president agreed to send F-16s (which according to him meant nuclear war). Russia conducted tactical nukes drills in responce.
Sorry dude, it's you not us.

Nope. That was Poostain that said that.

Russia warns Ukraine's F-16s will be treated as nuclear threats

The Russian government said it "cannot ignore" that the planes have the potential to deliver nuclear weapons.

www.newsweek.com

Hitler and Germany warned Britain that if they didn't surrender they would be annihilated. How did that work out?

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

For some reason aupy admires this behavior. Can't say why.

I neither admire Putins action nor NATO's action. I understand the compulsions of Russia and the strategy of NATO. Russia does not give me an honorarium.

You are saying it's okay for Putin to invade Ukraine. You've stated earlier that no one should be supplying Ukraine with weapons. So maybe "admire" was too strong a word. You clearly favor Putin and his invasion of Ukraine.

 

[DrZoidberg]

It's no different than the Cold War.

It’s like the Cold War, but with more genocide and Property Damage

It's still not recommended to brush your teeth with Vietnamese water, due to the Agent Orange residue. What caracterised the cold war was proxy wars, just like the one in Ukraine

I don't think Ukraine is a proxy war. In Vietnam, it was a clear proxy war between China and the USA. In Ukraine, it's a direct war between Russia and Ukraine, with Ukraine getting limited materiel assistance from a basket of nations who have an interest in containing Russia, and Russia getting similar assistance from places like Iran, China, and India.

But it would be absurd to characterise the Ukraine War as a proxy war between (say) the Netherlands and Iran.

The idea that NATO, as an organisation, has anything to do with the war in Ukraine is Putinist propaganda nonsense. Putin's mindset is thirty-five years out-of-date, and he wants everyone else to accept his absurd claim that this is a new Cold War.

But it's not; It's just an old fashioned colonial war between a powerful nation and a smaller neighbour, in which the agressor underestimated both the resolve of their victim, and the ability of their victim to get assistance from nations whose interest is in preventing agression and expansionism from being a viable strategy.

The Vietnam war was USA propping up the South Vietnamese government, (after France had fucked off). Over time USA got more and more involved, until USA was the South Vietnamese government. Initially they sent little more than money and material. Which is exactly what is happening now.

I'd say the parallels between Vietnam and Ukraine are numerous. Russia can be seen as an ex-colonial overlord over Ukraine, wanting to cling to power. The difference now is which side is aligned with the imperialists and which side is aligned with the ex-colonials.

USA's goal with the Vietnamese war wasn't to take over Vietnam. It was to stop Russian expansion. That's exactly the same thing as is happening now in Ukraine. USA was never trying to take over Vietnam. They only did it because it was necessary. Because the South Vietnamese government was a corrupt mess. Incidentaly... very similar to Ukraine now.

What makes Ukraine a proxy war is that Ukraine couldn't fight this war alone. The Ukraine war, is in practice NATO against Russia.

Why do you deny that NATO is a combatant in Ukraine? I have a Swedish officer friend, who right now, is training Ukrainian fighter pilots in England. He's doing that because NATO. NATO is involved up their eyeballs. When Putin makes that claim, he's not lying.

What Putin ('s propaganda) is wrong about, (regarding NATO) is what NATO is. NATO isn't expansionist or an imperial system. NATO isn't trying to dominate anything. NATO is nothing but an anti-Russian defence pact. Not officially, but certainly in practice. That's of course why Putin hates NATO. It ruins his Russian imperial dreams.

 

[TV and credit cards]

The only way the Russia/Ukraine war can be defined as a proxy war is that it may in the end serve Western strategic interests but this is only due to Putin’s gross miscalculation.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Then why be adversaries? If Russia ceased its imperialism of other countries and quit threatening the world with nuclear war, there would be no need to be adversaries.

NATO has forced Russia to be an adversary. Smart people. They are using Ukrainians to fight Russians. They do not worry about Ukraine or its people.

Russia invaded Ukraine. Also, criminals, non-ethnic Russians were fighting Ukrainians, at least early on.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

Why do you deny that NATO is a combatant in Ukraine?

Are any NATO troops dying in Ukraine? Are any NATO troops fighting in Ukraine? Are any NATO troops in Ukraine?

And Vietnam was more about China than Russia. I don't think those two states were on very good terms at the time. Vietnam was not a proxy war.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Why do you deny that NATO is a combatant in Ukraine?

Are any NATO troops dying in Ukraine? Are any NATO troops fighting in Ukraine? Are any NATO troops in Ukraine?

NATO money is dying in Ukraine. A lot of it. More NATO money is dying in Ukraine than Ukrainian money. Most Ukrainian military hardware is now NATO hardware

And Vietnam was more about China than Russia. I don't think those two states were on very good terms at the time. Vietnam was not a proxy war.

No, it wasn’t. That’s what China wanted. But the Vietnam communist party was worried about being dominated by China. So they reached out to USSR. Which was where most of their support came from.

They're still closely tied together

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

NATO money is dying in Ukraine. A lot of it. More NATO money is dying in Ukraine than Ukrainian money. Most Ukrainian military hardware is now NATO hardware

Money is a combatant? Get serious. Ukraine is a necessary fight because Hitler is alive and well again in Russia. It's a pretty simple thing to understand for those sufficiently informed and capable of responding.

 

[DrZoidberg]

NATO money is dying in Ukraine. A lot of it. More NATO money is dying in Ukraine than Ukrainian money. Most Ukrainian military hardware is now NATO hardware

Money is a combatant? Get serious. Ukraine is a necessary fight because Hitler is alive and well again in Russia. It's a pretty simple thing to understand for those sufficiently informed and capable of responding.

I have no idea wtf you are talking about? What is this even a reference to? I don't even understand what you are refuting or what you are for?

How does your comment disprove that it's a proxy war? Without US/NATO money Ukraine would have lost already. That makes it a proxy war.

It's not like a proxy war is equated with being evil or not justified. It just means that one side of the conflict doesn't have boots on the ground. They fight via a proxy.

Proxy war - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org