How should west respond to potential (likely) Russian invasion of Ukraine?

[barbos]

I asked you to show evidence, not repeat bullshit.

I provided the evidence.
I provided evidence million times. NATO is forcing countries to attack Russia. Georgians said as much.
And it does not even matter. Ukrainians can all 100% vote to join NATO it would not matter a one bit.
NATO is an aggressive terrorist organization and Russia can not allow it to operate in Ukraine, period.
It's existential problem for Russia, and if murdering ukrainians is the solution to this problem so be it.

When has NATO ever taken territory anywhere? People who are scared of you have joined it for safety, that's all.

When they said that Ukraine will be in NATO without even asking Ukraine.

And you're "right" that Ukraine in NATO is an existential problem for Russia--because you made it so.

You made it so by expanding and occupying countries around Russia,

You lose in Ukraine, other provinces will realize they can leave without being destroyed.

We have absolutely no reason to attack you.

And yet you do. And yes, you have plenty of reason to attack us. And that reason is China.
You attacked us hoping to regime change Russia into a puppet like current Ukraine.

The Ukraine war has made that abundantly clear--you simply do not have the firepower to challenge us.

No so. Despite what your nazi propaganda says, This war has shown that you can not challenge us.

So far you are pretty much at a standstill while facing a small fraction of our short range firepower.

Nope. Russia is using tiny fraction of our capabilities against whole NATO and winning.

 

[DrZoidberg]

And finally... the west side in the Ukraine conflict also makes up lies in order to justify our actions. Ukraine is a dysfunctional shit show of a nation dominated by gangsters and corrupt as hell. The leader of such a nation, Zelenskyy... obviously has a closet full of skelletons. But he's somehow always shown wearing a gloria.

I now have quite a lot of friends who have been in Ukraine as volonteers or soldiers. They all tell the same stories of absurd corruption and dysfunctionality on the Ukrainian side. We're also deluded about what kind of war this is. We've gilded the Ukrainian turd way more than what it deserves. Backing Ukraine is a huge gamble. There's no guarantee that a winning Zelenskyy won't turn Ukraine into a new Russia Putinstan.

I have heard multiple Ukrainian who said that Ukraine used to be a corrupt mess but they cleaned themselves up after the 2014 invasion.

Sure. But its still bad. Its important to acknowledge that the source of the corrupt culture is Russia. So getting Ukraine away from Russian power will improve matters.

But they have found natural gas in Ukraine. When that starts being extracted Ukraine might turn into yet another country where power stems from controlling that single resource = corruption

There's no guarantee a free Ukraine won't turn to shit again

 

[barbos]

Sure. But its still bad.

No still, it's exactly the same. And right now, current regime is stealing like there is no tomorrow.

Its important to acknowledge that the source of the corrupt culture is Russia

Well, considering that Ukraine IS Russia.
Having said that, ukrainians historically were more corrupt than russians. I mean it's a common knowledge and source of countless jokes.

 

[aupmanyav]

On a number of threads you try to make India relevant, I get that.

US also is not very relevant for us. Sanctions affect just about 1% of our GDP. We do not buy much oil or military equipment from US. US too needs our personnel in medicine, computers, teaching, etc. Sanctions have energized us to look for opportunities elsewhere. We thank US for that. However, the two governments are negotiating. Let us see if something good comes out of that.

 

[aupmanyav]

And you're "right" that Ukraine in NATO is an existential problem for Russia--because you made it so. You lose in Ukraine, other provinces will realize they can leave without being destroyed.

Which provinces are you thinking about?

 

[barbos]

Speaking of slight or not cultural differences between Russians, Ukrainians and .... Jews.
An ukrainian jew once told me the this anecdote.
A guy dies and gets to hell. And hell "attendants" give him a tour of hell's operation.
They pass the first cauldron where people are being boiled in oil. People are actively trying to jump out and these who jumped out trying to help others to get out, lots of devils around cauldron guarding and pushing people back into the cauldron.
The guy asks who are they? Hell attendant says these are jews.
They pass the next cauldron where people are being boiled in oil. People are also jumping out and but don't help the ones who are still in the cauldron, so there is less work for devils and there're fewer of them guarding.
Hell attendant says these are russians.
They go to the next cauldron, people sitting in the cauldron and nobody is guarding it. These who try to escape are being pulled back by the ones remaining there.
Hell attendant says these are ukrainians

 

[bilby]

Yikes, how self-deluded is this?!! Barbos accuses Nato of being imperialist, despite the fact that Nato has not taken a square inch of Russia!

Patently false. NATO took Ukraine which is Russia.

Patently false. Just because Russia owned it at one point doesn't make it part of Russia.

And NATO hasn't "taken it" anyway. Most of it is in Ukrainian control, and the rest is occupied by Russian invaders.

 

[DrZoidberg]

I have quite a few friends now who have been volonteers in Ukraine in a variety of functions. They all have the same story. The cynicism with which the soldiers and population have towards their own leads is pretty extreme, by western standards. The corruption is so egregrious it's like a comedy. To be fair, which is normal in war. But even to people with low standards, Ukraine is extreme.

I have a bunch of bizarre stories now. At the front it's of course less corrupt. Because any such behaviour can lead to immediate death. It's behind the lines it's extremely bad.

I expect that Russia is worse, ie the mother of all corruption. But Ukraine is no western country.. by any stretch.

 

[bilby]

The nuclear threat is Putin holding a gun to his own head.

Fanatics who are genuinely prepared to die, as long as they take a lot of others with them, are rare; The 9/11 hijackers are the exception that proves the rule. Putin is not a religious fanatic in that mould - he doesn't anticipate paradise for his martyrdom.

He won't use his nukes, even if he has any that still work, because he knows that a few minutes after he does, he, his family, his friends (if any), his armies, and their immediate environs, will be rapidly expanding clouds of radioactive gas and dust.

At least, I hope he knows that. And that the world's other nuclear powers remind him of it at every opportunity.

Disagree. He will not use a nuke against a nuclear power. He probably won't use a nuke against a western power. That doesn't mean he wouldn't use a nuke against Ukraine, though.

I am pretty sure that he is on notice from at least three of the other nuclear powers that such an action would not be tolerated.

Certainly the only way to maintain deterrence is to make clear that first use against any state, nuclear armed or not, will provoke a retailiatory strike.

During the Cuban Misslie Crisis, JFK said “It shall be the policy of this nation to regard any nuclear missile launched from Cuba against any nation in the Western Hemisphere as an attack by the Soviet Union on the United States, requiring a full retaliatory response upon the Soviet Union”

The only way to prevent first use by anyone, is for at least one of the other nuclear powers to state, unequivocally and believably, that all such use, against anyone, demands a retaliatory response against the leadership and remaining nuclear arsenal of the nation responsible.

 

[bilby]

We are winning and we are going to win.

 

[barbos]

We are winning and we are going to win.

View attachment 52328

You look good in the uniform

 

[DrZoidberg]

So calm