how to leave the US

[Duke Leto]

Trains are tools of socialism.

OMG!!! Has anyone told Dagny Taggart?

"You must spread some reputation around before you can give it to bilby again."

 

[Togo]

Americans think the rest of the world as poor? Where do you get this drivel from? Which Americans wold that be?

From my experience, they can be found in LA, New York, the Deep South, and the Mid-West. They're not overwhelming, but they're there. Remember all those people arguing that the 9/11 attacks were about jealousy?

As to the world hating America, I would disagree. I have worked with many from around the world and have heard it all, the criticisms and the positive views.. I do not need to travel to get a sense of that.

Because of course you'll get a balanced view from people who have chosen to live and work in the US? Seriously?
Not everyone hates America. But there are plenty who do, and can come up with some pretty convincing reasons. You don't dominate the world militarily and economically without causing people problems.

You gain sensitivity over time actually dealing with cultural issues and communications. I've worked closely professionally with immigrants from India, South Africa, Iran, Somalia, China Taiwan, Japan, South Korea, Russia, Vietnam, Iran and others who have English as a second language. Once you get past the language, stereotypes, and apparent cultural differences

Most of the work there has already been done by the person you're talking to...

we are all pretty much the same. Eat, drink, family, socializing, work.

That's a pretty common US cultural attitude.

Culture and ethnicity is the major cause of conflict today

Kurds-Iraquis
Turks-Kurds
Catalonian separatists
Northern Ireland
Scottish separatists
Arabs-Persians

US-world? I'm not sure how you can argue both that culture is the cause of conflict, but that US culture doesn't cause. Unless you think of culture as something that other countries have?

This is quite an important point. You do realise that by saying that 'culture' is the problem, what you're in effect saying is that 'non-US culture' is the problem? It kinda makes you sound like the Borg, you know? It's this kind of position that gives US citizens the legendary reputation for cultural ignorance that they enjoy around the world.

We look at the world and think we do it better, and yes even exceptional. we have bee an anchor post WWII. The still bickering European states can not work together without US leadership. They ask for it.

??? Can you give an example that doesn't involve using US economic or military power to solve a problem that is troublesome to Europeans? Because, hate to break it you, but that's not 'asking for leadership'.

In one direction from me there is a Sons Of Norway house. In another a Sikh temple, and another an Asian temple. All within about 5 miles of each other.

Three different religions within a ten mile diameter? Sanitised celebrations and parades? That's your idea of multicultural? I mean don't get me wrong, I'm sure Seattle is more diverse than some places, but that really doesn't seem to me much to boast about.

My wife comes from a small industrial town in the north of England. They have cultural holidays, immigrant populations, multiple religions in a small area, street signs in various languages, and so on. They're pretty good but I'd hardly call them a beacon of diversity and multiculturalism that would be unimaginable to an Australian. What the heck are you using a baseline?

The idea that Americans are singular cultural bad actors is nonsense. Consider French, German, and English nationalism.

??? What about them? Does Germany stick up a wire fence and armed guards to keep immigrants out? Where's the equivalent of Pat Buchanan's proposal to sew the Mexican border with land mines?

The stereotype is not that Americans are culturally bad actors, it's that they're culturally crass and ignorant.

The US as a modern empire harking back to the British past is as much nonsense as the Zionist conspiracies.

...

As to American hegemony and empire, reality does not fit the definition. If we were empire with an hegemony we wold not face the problems we do. We would dictate.

Why? The British didn't dictate, they had to build consensus with other powers and offer them regional advantage to join in. It was only the smallest countries that got dictated to. The British would send in a gunboat, do a bit of light shelling or raiding, and basically humiliate the government with their powerlessness. The US tend to try and hurt detractors financially instead, but it's the same basic principle. Economic rather than straight military enforcement is definitely an improvement, but the basic process is unchanged.

You rant from ignorance and the physical isolation of Australia from the rest of the world.

Honestly steve, I don't think he's displaying any more ignorance than you are.

 

[dx713]

<personal experience and geopolitical stuff snipped>
Tell me,would you buy a house in a 50/50 black-white split area? If you have a daughter would you be OK with her having a black husband and having mixed blood grand kids? Would your family accept it? Do you think twice about sitting next to blacks in a restaurant? The test of cultural sensitivity is how you react in real everyday situations, not traveling as a tourist. I have been through my own learning curve
<more snipped>

Nice rant, and you might be right about some of the geopolitical stuff (but note bilby's post was about cultural stuff). But the way you feel bound to go all defensive and produce such a long rant rather undermines your point.
And the quote I've selected proves Bilby's point even more, and does make you look like an isolationnist USian with poor understanding of other cultures. Do you realize that the black racism is a typical US problem, and that, despite most still having racism all classism issues, the way you present it would garner you a raised eyebrow and a "why not" in a lot of places, or even total misunderstanding and a "let's back away slowly"?

 

[Jokodo]

bilby

I know you think you are engaged in an epic contest of wills with me, but is really all in your head.

That is absolutely the most entertaining anti-USA rant I have ever heard. Interesting mix of bigotry and ignorant stereotype.

Rant? You know what's a rant? Your post. Bilby just, rather politely in my opinion, informed you that your kind of attitude is what gives Americans a bad name.

Americans think the rest of the world as poor? Where do you get this drivel from? Which Americans wold that be?

You, for example. Like where you went on about how, due to your superior "western road system", 1000km is nothing for you, obviously assuming that other places don't have any roads to speak of.
Meanwhile, in reality: Google maps of the Northeast US vs. Central Europe, at the same zoom level:
https://www.google.at/maps/@47.5307687,-122.2487019,7z
https://www.google.at/maps/@49.3802669,12.6007672,7z
There's more highways on the European map than there's roads of any kind significant enough to be displayed at the given scale on the American one, by a big margin too. And that's before we talk about the nonexistence (for all practical purposes) of trains in the NW US. Now of course, the main reason for this discrepancy is population densities. But the reasons don't change the fact that the road system you assumed to be superior without thought is in fact not quite so superior.

 

[dx713]

Back to the OP: the way I did it when I went to Korea was to use a company from my own country sending me there. They handled all the initial installation help (some rental systems can be very opaque to the foreigners) and the work visa and family visas paperwork.

Then, once there, I could have tried to build a contacts network to find work in an indigenous company, for instance my customer. I didn't because I didn't envision spending my life half-world away from my family (and in-laws) in a country whose language I'd never fully master and that's still officially at war, but that's how I would have played it.

But maybe it's different on your domain of work. I've heard that nurses, or English teachers, have it more easy when it comes to finding work overseas, for instance. In that case, the right move might be to look for a job through the Internet and/or go visit on a tourist visa and try to find a job once there (illegal but usual, just don't say it to the immigration officer).

What store do you work with, do they have an international reach? Or could you switch to another kind of customer-oriented management like tourism, hostels?
I've understood it's much easier to apply for a work visa when you have a job lined-up and an employer vouching for you. (all subject to local immigration laws, of course, once again Internet might be a good source of info)

 

[dystopian]

In one direction from me there is a Sons Of Norway house. In another a Sikh temple, and another an Asian temple. All within about 5 miles of each other.

Three different religions within a ten mile diameter? Sanitised celebrations and parades? That's your idea of multicultural? I mean don't get me wrong, I'm sure Seattle is more diverse than some places, but that really doesn't seem to me much to boast about.

This caused me to raise an eyebrow too. There's places here where you can have a Buddhist temple, a Sikh temple, a synagogue, a mosque, and a couple of different denominational churches practically *on the same street*; not to mention over a hundred different nationalities living on the same block. If having three different religions represented in buildings within a 5 mile radius constitutes an impressive amount of multi-culturalness; I must live in in the very center of the interdimensional multiverse or something. Within about 5 miles I can find AT LEAST the following: A Vietnamese Buddhist Temple, a Sikh Temple, a Protestant Combination Catholic Church, an Iranian Church, too many Evangelical Churches to count including a Nigerian Church, a Pentacostal Church, an Apostolic Church (a known cult), a Jehova's Witness temple, a Hindu Temple, at least 3 Mosques (including an ahmadiyya one), an Ashkenazi Synagoge, and a Mormon church. And all that is within what is essentially a suburban landscape; the diversity would be far greater in Amsterdam proper. While this may be quite diverse, I imagine one could find a similar diversity in say Sydney.

 

[4321lynx]

Also, if you work for the military or any large tech company and have access to classified information on new technologies, Chinese immigration authorities are willing to speed up your citizenship requests.

And I suppose North Korea and the Islamic State of Iraq & Syria will as well. And they will end your problems with life quickly if THEY need to.

 

[ZiprHead]

Unless you want to return to a country you have heritage in. I believe I could 'return' to England or Sweden without too much difficulty.

Hmmm, supposedly my family has a castle in England. Maybe I need to join Ancestry.com.

 

[skepticalbip]

Back to the OP: the way I did it when I went to Korea was to use a company from my own country sending me there. They handled all the initial installation help (some rental systems can be very opaque to the foreigners) and the work visa and family visas paperwork.

Then, once there, I could have tried to build a contacts network to find work in an indigenous company, for instance my customer. I didn't because I didn't envision spending my life half-world away from my family (and in-laws) in a country whose language I'd never fully master and that's still officially at war, but that's how I would have played it.

But maybe it's different on your domain of work. I've heard that nurses, or English teachers, have it more easy when it comes to finding work overseas, for instance. In that case, the right move might be to look for a job through the Internet and/or go visit on a tourist visa and try to find a job once there (illegal but usual, just don't say it to the immigration officer).

What store do you work with, do they have an international reach? Or could you switch to another kind of customer-oriented management like tourism, hostels?
I've understood it's much easier to apply for a work visa when you have a job lined-up and an employer vouching for you. (all subject to local immigration laws, of course, once again Internet might be a good source of info)

All good advice.

It isn't that difficult to find work out of the country. There are business everywhere looking for talent. The problem is finding an offer in a country that you want to go to that is looking for your specific talent. However, once you find it, the company will handle most of the hassles of getting you official government permission to move there.

I was an ex-pat living in the Bahamas for about four years. The work was enjoyable and challenging. The SCUBA and snorkel diving, fishing, sailing, etc. was great. But living on a small island eventually brings "island fever" for anyone who loves the open road.

 

[4321lynx]

If you give our Canadian govt a sum of money as a five year interest-free loan, you can have your permanent resident visa in 3 to 4 weeks. The sum used to be $75,000, but has recently been raised, not so conservatively the story goes, by the Conservative federal govt. How do you think so many of the Hong Kong Canadians of Chinese origin who populate Toronto, Vancouver, and, yes, Hong Kong too, got here so fast?

 

[SimpleDon]

I have lived and worked in four different countries, the PRC, Canada, Germany and the US. In addition I have worked for months at a time in fifteen or so other countries, primarily in Asia.

Some points not covered by others.

1. It is different living in a country than it is traveling to it as a visitor or on a short term assignment. Talk to everyone you can in a country that you are interested to move to, but concentrate on other expatriates. They have moved there from other countries and have been through it all. In Europe there are professional relocation companies that can help, but naturally they are expensive.
   
2. Language isn't going to be a problem, you speak everyone's second language, English. (Exception - Montreal, at least in the 1980's when I lived there.) You will want to learn the local language if for no other reason than the need to read signs and for small talk in shops, etc. My company in Germany does its daily business in English. Even down to the lunch room and the security people. And it is a German company.
3. It is not an easy thing, moving to another country. It is not even the big things that you think will be a problem. They will be, work permits, residence permits, driver's licenses, health care, taxes, etc. But those are expected. But everyday you will be caught up by something different, a small thing that you have to learn.
4. You have to be a certain type of person to do it, you have to have a strong reason to do it. I worked together with an Austrian whose father was a diplomat, he had lived all over the world, including behind the iron curtain and in Mao's cultural revolution era People's Republic of China. He told me that the hardest place for him to get use to living in was Sweden. And his wife was Swedish. He finally decided that the Swedes had decided to do everything the hardest way possible. You never know.
5. Yes, there are a lot of places where the people don't like the US. But in most of those places I have found that they are able to still separate the actions of the US government from the Americans that they meet. One place that I have seen this is Iran.
6. Your mother was right, let good manners be your first reaction. And, please, learn what constitutes good manners.
7. I have found that in China and North Korea I had to be circumspect about having been a Naval Aviator. Surprisingly it helped me in the one place that you think that it would hurt, the country that I bombed, Vietnam. You never know.
8. Yes, they make fun of Americans for a whole list of supposed offences. But they also make fun of every other nationality too. Go with it. Turn about is usually fair play.
9. The odds are that you will eventually return to the US. Don't burn those bridges. During the height of the mass immigration to the US in the late 19th and early 20th century half of the immigrants returned to their home countries.

I would strongly question your reasons for leaving the US. This is a wonderful place to live and to work. You will find in every country that most people believe that things have gotten worse during their lifetimes. They, like you, are wrong. Things are constantly improving. We don't need to go back to some better times, we live in the best of times right now.

I was born into times that faced nuclear bombs, diseases that crippled and killed, widespread famines that would kill millions, totalitarianism. illiteracy, racism, misogyny, homophobia, lack of political and personal freedom and a host of other problems. It has all gotten better. It will continue to get better. Those who fear change fear the future. They can't hold it back for long, they can't turn the clock back.

Oh, if you are going to move to another country it helps if you are an optimist, a glass is half full kind of person.

 

[bilby]

bilby

I know you think you are engaged in an epic contest of wills with me, but is really all in your head.

Sorry Steve, but my father always told me that it is unsportsmanlike to engage in a battle of wits against an unarmed opponent.

Any 'epic contest' is purely a figment of your imagination.

I see that many others have responded to your massive rant, so I won't bother repeating their efforts.

 

[Jokodo]

Rant? You know what's a rant? Your post. Bilby just, rather politely in my opinion, informed you that your kind of attitude is what gives Americans a bad name.

Americans think the rest of the world as poor? Where do you get this drivel from? Which Americans wold that be?

You, for example. Like where you went on about how, due to your superior "western road system", 1000km is nothing for you, obviously assuming that other places don't have any roads to speak of.
Meanwhile, in reality: Google maps of the Northeast US vs. Central Europe, at the same zoom level:
https://www.google.at/maps/@47.5307687,-122.2487019,7z
https://www.google.at/maps/@49.3802669,12.6007672,7z
There's more highways on the European map than there's roads of any kind significant enough to be displayed at the given scale on the American one, by a big margin too. And that's before we talk about the nonexistence (for all practical purposes) of trains in the NW US. Now of course, the main reason for this discrepancy is population densities. But the reasons don't change the fact that the road system you assumed to be superior without thought is in fact not quite so superior.

I have to apologise for a typo - the first google map is from the NorthWEST USA, not Northeast USA. I was going for the Northwest because what steve_bnk identifies as his location. the "east" is just a really stupid typo. The road network in the NorthEAST USA is of cource much denser, but outside of the main agglomarations, it doesn't really come close to Central Europe either.

 

[dx713]

SimpleDon nailed it.
Read this man, and read him again. From my limited experience, he knows what he's talking about.

1. It is different living in a country than it is traveling to it as a visitor or on a short term assignment. Talk to everyone you can in a country that you are interested to move to, but concentrate on other expatriates. They have moved there from other countries and have been through it all. In Europe there are professional relocation companies that can help, but naturally they are expensive.
   
2. Language isn't going to be a problem, you speak everyone's second language, English. (Exception - Montreal, at least in the 1980's when I lived there.) You will want to learn the local language if for no other reason than the need to read signs and for small talk in shops, etc. My company in Germany does its daily business in English. Even down to the lunch room and the security people. And it is a German company.

A caveat to this: look closely who those expatriates are: what kind of job, where?
When I moved to Korea, all expats blogs and other contacts I had told me everyone there speaks English, no worries. Except once there, I discovered they were all working in Seoul, and most in banking or international trade. I would be working on Engineering on the South Coast, oops.
Cue learning to write every answer so the less English proficient of my team could take their time to understand them (luckily, my team leader spoke perfect English), and being glad I had learned alphabet, salutations, and numbers, just for politeness sake I thought, because no one else spoke more than a tiny bit of English there outside of work! (doctor visit or administrative stuff were not fun, you learn to call your work colleagues for help)

Oh, if you are going to move to another country it helps if you are an optimist, a glass is half full kind of person.

This squared!
When I was in Korea, there were two distinct groups. The ones who noticed everything that the Korean did differently, that looked silly to our French eyes, that hampered our work, that were an extra hassle out of work, complained consistently, and eventually felt like they were there only for the money and couldn't wait to get back. They now regard the experience as a learning experience, a money-making and carreer-expanding event, but don't wish to repeat it (except for money or career).
The other ones were determined to enjoy their time in such a strange (to western eyes) country, and to laugh the differences and silly things out. They had a great time, and when I meet them now, we still remember that mission as a very happy time and all have our eyes open for possible repeat missions.
It really makes a difference. (and Korea is really not a difficult country for a foreigner)

 

[dystopian]

I'd say you should also be prepared for the different stages of being an expat. I have no expat experience, but from reading people who do, it becomes clear there's 4 stages to it:

Stage one: Everything is awesome! These people are awesome! Their culture is awesome! Their food is awesome! Everything is awesome!

Stage two: I want to go home and tell people how awesome everything is over here. Also, I miss [x].

Stage three: Everything is horrible. These people are horrible. Their culture is horrible. Their food is horrible. Everything is horrible.

Stage four: Everything is pretty cool if not perfect. These people are pretty cool if not perfect. Their culture is pretty cool if not perfect. Their food is pretty cool if not perfect.

Whatever you do, do *not* leave a country when you're experiencing stage three, because you will hate that country and its people for life instead of coming to realize that they're pretty cool if not perfect.

 

[Malintent]

I've given thought about trying to move to another country. For those who have done it, can you give me any advice? I'm figuring you have to get a work visa first, then perhaps a residence license, and then perhaps if it works out you can apply for citizenship.

I think the country is going to pot and it ain't going to get better.

Maybe visit elsewhere for a while first... while I most likely agree with you on what is good and what is bad about our country, for the most part, I also am very well traveled and can tell you that it is worse almost everywhere else... so.. where did you have in mind and what is the worse part of the US that you are trying to get away from, and also what are your "must haves" in a country that you would not consider living in without?

 

[Malintent]

Most of the islandar ex-pats I have come to run into are completely nuts. They left the US to escape Orwellean-class paranoid delusions they have... like that their phones were tapped by the men in black... so now they live on a beach that has no phones... carefull where you run off to.. they will be your neighbors.

 

[arkirk]

Most of the islandar ex-pats I have come to run into are completely nuts. They left the US to escape Orwellean-class paranoid delusions they have... like that their phones were tapped by the men in black... so now they live on a beach that has no phones... carefull where you run off to.. they will be your neighbors.

You got it right!? Who would ever want to leave this paradise. They gotta be paranoid...or perhaps just tired or bullshit.

 

[arkirk]

I'd say you should also be prepared for the different stages of being an expat. I have no expat experience, but from reading people who do, it becomes clear there's 4 stages to it:

Stage one: Everything is awesome! These people are awesome! Their culture is awesome! Their food is awesome! Everything is awesome!

Stage two: I want to go home and tell people how awesome everything is over here. Also, I miss [x].

Stage three: Everything is horrible. These people are horrible. Their culture is horrible. Their food is horrible. Everything is horrible.

Stage four: Everything is pretty cool if not perfect. These people are pretty cool if not perfect. Their culture is pretty cool if not perfect. Their food is pretty cool if not perfect.

Whatever you do, do *not* leave a country when you're experiencing stage three, because you will hate that country and its people for life instead of coming to realize that they're pretty cool if not perfect.

Easy to say in Amsterdam...not so easy in Riyadh or Fallujah or anywhere in Mississippi.

 

[dystopian]

Easy to say in Amsterdam...not so easy in Riyadh or Fallujah or anywhere in Mississippi.

Obviously these stages apply to someone who moves somewhere they anticipate to be awesome.