If Biden Falls, Who Will Rise?

[Toni]

Yeah, what happened to Harris? I looked and she is 7?%???

nope.

 

[TV and credit cards]

I don’t think Biden is long for this race. These gaffes are going to look increasingly like the cognitive decline of an old man. Going forward this is going to be more and more of a concern among voters. I can’t imagine him making it through four years as president.

Harris and Booker both screwed up going after Biden in the debate. Uncle Joe is loved by many and the tragedies he’s suffered in his life gives him the sympathy card. They attacked America’s Uncle Joe and they paid the price.

I think Warren can pick up much of Biden’s voters if she plays it right. I think all she needs to do is run with a “take America back” motto.

I still like Mayor Pete. I’ve watched a number of his speeches now and think he is the whole package. Yang is sharp but we don’t need a businessman guessing at foreign policy. Many are inclined toward business from a young age and should stay in that world. Buttigieg has been inclined toward politics.

And I would like nothing better than the Trumkins to have a First Husband to look to. It warms my heart just thinking about it.

 

[Toni]

Actually, other than one tiny outlier poll, Biden's numbers have remained pretty steady. People who like him don't give a shit about his gaffes. But, if it's not Biden, it will likely be Warren, imo. I really don't care who it is at this point, as anyone is far better than Trump. I'm not worried about how far left Warren' plans are it's highly unlikely any of them will ever be passed into law. Well over half of the Democrats in Congress are moderates and even if the Dems were to take back the Senate, it will be extremely difficult to get Warren's plans passed. She has a history of compromising, and I think if she becomes president, she knows she will need to compromise. Anybody else 2020 is my motto. So far, it looks as if Trump will go down in defeat regardless of which candidate becomes the nominee.

I worry about Biden's age but I do think he's electable.

Bernie sticks to his stumping points because that's where his mental capacity is at the moment. He may have a better angel on his shoulder than Trump, but he does not have a better mental capacity. I really do see Bernie/Trump as two sides of the same coin: ego maniacs, old men who have been past their prime for at least 20 years who are only able to rile their rabid bases and frankly, that's all they care about and their own egos. Trump/Gabbard are identical, imo.

 

[Horatio Parker]

To me Biden represents the past, corporate Dems that got us where we are today.

I'd vote for a ham sandwich opposing Agent Orange, but so far Warren appears to be the standout.

 

[Politesse]

I've seen an awful lot of "think pieces" intimating increased support for Warren the last few weeks. Assuming that media coverage isn't exactly random, I wonder whether the DNC leadership has made their backup pick and is sending some whispers around.

 

[Jason Harvestdancer]

Actually, other than one tiny outlier poll, Biden's numbers have remained pretty steady. People who like him don't give a shit about his gaffes. But, if it's not Biden, it will likely be Warren, imo. I really don't care who it is at this point, as anyone is far better than Trump. I'm not worried about how far left Warren' plans are it's highly unlikely any of them will ever be passed into law. Well over half of the Democrats in Congress are moderates and even if the Dems were to take back the Senate, it will be extremely difficult to get Warren's plans passed. She has a history of compromising, and I think if she becomes president, she knows she will need to compromise. Anybody else 2020 is my motto. So far, it looks as if Trump will go down in defeat regardless of which candidate becomes the nominee.

Tulsi Gabbard would not be better than Trump. Different issues but her strings are pulled by foreign powers and special interests and she has zero internal core values except power and money. She's younger and prettier but so what? Trump at her age would not have been a better POTUS.

She really does scare you. Look at the crap you are spreading about her. You're trying to tie her to Assad, Putin, and Trump.

 

[Toni]

Actually, other than one tiny outlier poll, Biden's numbers have remained pretty steady. People who like him don't give a shit about his gaffes. But, if it's not Biden, it will likely be Warren, imo. I really don't care who it is at this point, as anyone is far better than Trump. I'm not worried about how far left Warren' plans are it's highly unlikely any of them will ever be passed into law. Well over half of the Democrats in Congress are moderates and even if the Dems were to take back the Senate, it will be extremely difficult to get Warren's plans passed. She has a history of compromising, and I think if she becomes president, she knows she will need to compromise. Anybody else 2020 is my motto. So far, it looks as if Trump will go down in defeat regardless of which candidate becomes the nominee.

Tulsi Gabbard would not be better than Trump. Different issues but her strings are pulled by foreign powers and special interests and she has zero internal core values except power and money. She's younger and prettier but so what? Trump at her age would not have been a better POTUS.

She really does scare you. Look at the crap you are spreading about her. You're trying to tie her to Assad, Putin, and Trump.

I'm not tying her to anything. She's tied herself and reporters are reporting.

So what is it about her that does it for you, exactly? The bulge in your pants?

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

I really do see Bernie/Trump as two sides of the same coin: ego maniacs, old men who have been past their prime for at least 20 years who are only able to rile their rabid bases and frankly, that's all they care about and their own egos. Trump/Gabbard are identical, imo.

I would like to hear your reasons for thinking each of these things. What exactly did Bernie say to make you think he is an egomaniac like Trump? Is it just because he challenged Hillary or do you have other reasons? And why do you think Tulsi is controlled by foreign powers? Have you seen speeches or actions or votes of theirs that I have not?

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

To me Biden represents the past, corporate Dems that got us where we are today.

I'd vote for a ham sandwich opposing Agent Orange, but so far Warren appears to be the standout.

I agree. Biden strikes me as the second coming of Hillary, except more gaffes and folksy charm and less identity politics and less self entitlement. Just like Hillary he is all about going back to how it was and more of that same, rather than change for the better.

 

[barbos]

Yeah, what happened to Harris? I looked and she is 7?%???

nope.

nope what?

https://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/latest_polls/democratic_nomination_polls/

 

[Toni]

Yeah, what happened to Harris? I looked and she is 7?%???

nope.

nope what?

https://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/latest_polls/democratic_nomination_polls/

The ‘latest’ I read yesterday had Harris at 10, fourth in the top 4.

I definitely see Bernie and Biden as too old. Whatever else I might think of them, to me, their ages are concerning—very. Warren is not significantly different in age but she seems
much more youthful and energetic and her mental acuity is greater.

I read an interesting piece a week or two ago which suggested that Black voters think that a white man is who is required to beat Trump. I think this is what Biden has going for him the most: he represents a better, more hopeful time, and stability. He’s a known factor.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

I read an interesting piece a week or two ago which suggested that Black voters think that a white man is who is required to beat Trump. I think this is what Biden has going for him the most: he represents a better, more hopeful time, and stability. He’s a known factor.

He represents what was, so yes, I do think he will appeal to many as an undo button. But that also throws away the silver lining of the Trump presidency - the breaking of the old system so something better can rise in its ashes. I remember back when Trump and HIllary were running and many on the left were so fed up with politics as usual, phoney baloney politicians full of empty platitudes, no substance, and bought by special interest groups and corporations. Its a big reason Hillary lost. And Biden in office is a return to it. Trump having taken office meant the possibility of better than pre-Trump once Trump is out. We wouldn't have Bernie or Warren as front runners in the primary had Trump not won. We wouldn't have medicare for all, the green new deal, or much of the rest of the progressive planform mainstreamed in the Democrat party if Hillary had taken office and continued politics as usual.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

I read an interesting piece a week or two ago which suggested that Black voters think that a white man is who is required to beat Trump. I think this is what Biden has going for him the most: he represents a better, more hopeful time, and stability. He’s a known factor.

He represents what was, so yes, I do think he will appeal to many as an undo button. But that also throws away the silver lining of the Trump presidency - the breaking of the old system so something better can rise in its ashes.

What exactly?

I remember back when Trump and HIllary were running and many on the left were so fed up with politics as usual, phoney baloney politicians full of empty platitudes, no substance, and bought by special interest groups and corporations. Its a big reason Hillary lost. And Biden in office is a return to it. Trump having taken office meant the possibility of better than pre-Trump once Trump is out. We wouldn't have Bernie or Warren as front runners in the primary had Trump not won. We wouldn't have medicare for all, the green new deal, or much of the rest of the progressive planform mainstreamed in the Democrat party if Hillary had taken office and continued politics as usual.

We don't have it now. Had Clinton won, we wouldn't have magically had it then either, but we'd been moving towards it.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

What exactly? We don't have it now. Had Clinton won, we wouldn't have magically had it then either, but we'd been moving towards it.

We have a disruption in the status quo of polished insider politics now. That's what Trump broke. And that's why the progressive wing of the Democrats have been able to make so much progress. Hillary and the rest of the bought corporate insider politicians, on both the left and the right were taken down. Trump is a fire that burned the system and norms down. Its a chance for a better system and norms to rise from the ashes. Bernie, Warren, Yang, hell we've even got Williamson in the race. The wheel is broken. Instead of fixing it, lets build wings and soar to higher ground.

 

[Toni]

What exactly? We don't have it now. Had Clinton won, we wouldn't have magically had it then either, but we'd been moving towards it.

We have a disruption in the status quo of polished insider politics now. That's what Trump broke. And that's why the progressive wing of the Democrats have been able to make so much progress. Hillary and the rest of the bought corporate insider politicians, on both the left and the right were taken down. Trump is a fire that burned the system and norms down. Its a chance for a better system and norms to rise from the ashes. Bernie, Warren, Yang, hell we've even got Williamson in the race. The wheel is broken. Instead of fixing it, lets build wings and soar to higher ground.

Obama was a ‘polished insider?’ Reagan? Carter? No. Polished? Maybe. But not insiders.

What’s this ‘let’s’ business? You’re not from my country.
Trump appeals to spoiled 4 year olds who think the only way to make something better is to destroy it. Unfortunately not a mindset to do anything but damage. If that’s what you want: try it in your own country first. I’ll pop the corn.

What Trump has broken is a sense that integrity and rule of law matter. That doing what is right is more important than doing what profits a handful of individuals. Not to mention the whole ‘give me your yearning masses’ we’re a nation of immigrants thing.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

Obama was a ‘polished insider?’ Reagan? Carter? No. Polished? Maybe. But not insiders.

Carter wasn't. Reagan and Obama quickly became so. Hillary didn't start out as a sell out politics as usual corporatist either. But she became that well before she ran for the presidency. I see no risk of this happening to Yang or Bernie (or Williamson), and a slight risk of it happening to Warren, but not nearly as much with her as with others like Harris, Booker, etc. Biden is already there.

Trump appeals to spoiled 4 year olds who think the only way to make something better is to destroy it.

Of Democrats, yes. Of Republicans, no. Republicans and some in the center actually did (and some amazingly still do) simply see him as the better choice. A number of Democrats did see the way to change the system as to destroy it and building something better. I understand your hesitation to not want to destroy it, but that's pretty much done now. Trump is a destruction of it, so why not now go with them for the rebuild of something better? Why rebuild the same status quo that we had before a la Biden?

Unfortunately not a mindset to do anything but damage. If that’s what you want: try it in your own country first. I’ll pop the corn.

No need. My country already has univeral single payer health care. I'd like to see dental covered. I'd like to see UBI come in as well. We tried it in Ontario but the new conservative government ended the experiment before it could get off the ground. Hopefully the next liberal government of Ontario will go back towards it. These are changes that we can steadily work towards, and we wont have people bankrupt and dying for lack of money in the interim. As for our Prime Minister Trudeau, he's a bit of a himbo and he likely wouldn't be in power if not for his family name (which irks me), but he's no Trump. We're allowing refugees and immigrants in without talk of building a wall too. Do you really want to compare countries on social policy?

What Trump has broken is a sense that integrity and rule of law matter.

No, he hasn't. There has been plenty of outrage at his missteps (and even some overblown). He's shown that your system fails to account for abuses of it from the Presidency. If your people have any sense, these holes will be plugged during the next regime to ensure against future Trumps. Its amazing that some questions that have been raised about the powers and duties of presidents can even be asked without immediate obvious answers.

That doing what is right is more important than doing what profits a handful of individuals. Not to mention the whole ‘give me your yearning masses’ we’re a nation of immigrants thing.

Both of these fictions have long been bullshit in the USA. You haven't seen either taken seriously since FDR.

Also, still waiting for your explanation about what you said about Bernie and Tulsi. Why do you think Bernie is an egomaniac and why do you think Tulsi is a foreign agent?

 

[laughing dog]

Carter wasn't. Reagan and Obama quickly became so. Hillary didn't start out as a sell out politics as usual corporatist either. But she became that well before she ran for the presidency. I see no risk of this happening to Yang or Bernie (or Williamson), and a slight risk of it happening to Warren, but not nearly as much with her as with others like Harris, Booker, etc. Biden is already there.

I strongly suspect you have no clue what it is like to live and work in the DC area. Almost everyone in power becomes an insider to a large degree pretty quickly or they are out on their ass.

Of Democrats, yes. Of Republicans, no.

You are misinformed. I know plenty of Republicans who did not vote for Trump because of who he is. And voting for anyone but HRC is not a vote one should count on.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

What exactly? We don't have it now. Had Clinton won, we wouldn't have magically had it then either, but we'd been moving towards it.

We have a disruption in the status quo of polished insider politics now.

We have a diversion that could lead the US away from the Representative Democracy we have built. This is a bigger opportunity for authoritarianism than it is progressive policies. And I'm confused beyond all heck how you can see this an an optimistic time. Our Federal Election Commission is now out of business for regulating our elections!

That's what Trump broke.

Trump isn't the source of this. Trump was hob nobbing with whomever would elevate his stature, including the Clintons. He is an opportunist that has taken the situation to his advantage. The people, and how they've been manipulated by AM Radio for the last 30 years and then more recently by social media, is what is broken. When Americans demand the Federal Government keep their hands off their Social Security, we have a serious problem.

And that's why the progressive wing of the Democrats have been able to make so much progress.

I know you are north of the border and don't understand American politics, but Sanders got a large deal of his platform on to the DNC ticket. A Clinton victory would have begun the arduous process of making college education affordable again. That sort of stuff takes time. Right now, what is being proposed isn't much different that what was on the Clinton DNC platform because she knew she needed Sanders' full support in '16.

Hillary and the rest of the bought corporate insider politicians, on both the left and the right were taken down. Trump is a fire that burned the system and norms down. Its a chance for a better system and norms to rise from the ashes. Bernie, Warren, Yang, hell we've even got Williamson in the race. The wheel is broken. Instead of fixing it, lets build wings and soar to higher ground.

That is simply childish wishful nonsense.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

Carter wasn't. Reagan and Obama quickly became so. Hillary didn't start out as a sell out politics as usual corporatist either. But she became that well before she ran for the presidency. I see no risk of this happening to Yang or Bernie (or Williamson), and a slight risk of it happening to Warren, but not nearly as much with her as with others like Harris, Booker, etc. Biden is already there.

I strongly suspect you have no clue what it is like to live and work in the DC area. Almost everyone in power becomes an insider to a large degree pretty quickly or they are out on their ass.

And you don't see that as a problem? It was Carter's undoing, but he didn't get absorbed by it (good on him). Trump has been breaking it. Bernie would stand up to it. So would Yang. So would Williamson. The government should serve the people, not the other way around. It shouldn't be "I'm with her/him". It should be that she/he is with the people. And that brings me back to Toni's claim that Bernie is an egomaniac. Why does anyone think that? He's been about his policy ideas ahead of himself since day one.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

We have a diversion that could lead the US away from the Representative Democracy we have built. This is a bigger opportunity for authoritarianism than it is progressive policies.

You don't have much of a representative democracy. That's mostly a fiction. USA doesn't crack the top 20 on the Democracy Index. What representative democracy you do have was already being whittled away at under the status quo prior to Trump. Trump accelerated it, but after he is out, you've got a golden opportunity to improve it.

And I'm confused beyond all heck how you can see this an an optimistic time.

I'm an optimist. Even with Trump in office, overall the picture is not as bad as people like to scream. He's the worst president you've had in a long time, and he's stacked your judiciary very badly against progress, and he's given plenty of reason to be concerned, but he's done little damage that can't be repaired, and his shock to the system creates or SHOULD create an impetus to fix the system. He's like grabbing your hand and jamming it into boiling water, rather than slowly increasing the water to a boil. In the former, you notice, and you do something about it. Or you SHOULD. I'm amazed to see so many on the left not wanting to take that opportunity and push for the better rather than the status quo of what you had before.

I know you are north of the border and don't understand American politics, but Sanders got a large deal of his platform on to the DNC ticket.

It was a great accomplishment that he should be remembered for, whether or not he ever becomes president. And Clinton only adopted what she did from Sanders because Sanders pushed so hard. After the election, I doubt very much she would have actually delivered on any of what Sanders was pushing for though. She was simply too bought by corporate interests. She'd never shut down the medical insurance industry. There's a good chance that Sanders and Warren would.

A Clinton victory would have begun the arduous process of making college education affordable again.

Bullshit. Tuition fees would have continued to climb, not come down.

Its a chance for a better system and norms to rise from the ashes. Bernie, Warren, Yang, hell we've even got Williamson in the race. The wheel is broken. Instead of fixing it, lets build wings and soar to higher ground.

That is simply childish wishful nonsense.

It is optimism and wanting actual change. It is what people hoped Obama would be, before he sold out. Obama won that election. This can also win. Democrats win when they sell optimism, hope and change. They lose when they sell pessimism and and dismiss hope and change as childish wishful nonsense. Women's suffrage, the end of racist government policies, gay marriage, were all initially dismissed as childish wishful nonsense too. You can do it. All you need is the political will to do it. And you win that by selling hope and change for the better. Yes You Can.