If Biden Falls, Who Will Rise?

[Toni]

Carter wasn't. Reagan and Obama quickly became so. Hillary didn't start out as a sell out politics as usual corporatist either. But she became that well before she ran for the presidency. I see no risk of this happening to Yang or Bernie (or Williamson), and a slight risk of it happening to Warren, but not nearly as much with her as with others like Harris, Booker, etc. Biden is already there.



Of Democrats, yes. Of Republicans, no. Republicans and some in the center actually did (and some amazingly still do) simply see him as the better choice. A number of Democrats did see the way to change the system as to destroy it and building something better. I understand your hesitation to not want to destroy it, but that's pretty much done now. Trump is a destruction of it, so why not now go with them for the rebuild of something better? Why rebuild the same status quo that we had before a la Biden?

Unfortunately not a mindset to do anything but damage. If that’s what you want: try it in your own country first. I’ll pop the corn.

No need. My country already has univeral single payer health care. I'd like to see dental covered. I'd like to see UBI come in as well. We tried it in Ontario but the new conservative government ended the experiment before it could get off the ground. Hopefully the next liberal government of Ontario will go back towards it. These are changes that we can steadily work towards, and we wont have people bankrupt and dying for lack of money in the interim. As for our Prime Minister Trudeau, he's a bit of a himbo and he likely wouldn't be in power if not for his family name (which irks me), but he's no Trump. We're allowing refugees and immigrants in without talk of building a wall too. Do you really want to compare countries on social policy?

What Trump has broken is a sense that integrity and rule of law matter.

No, he hasn't. There has been plenty of outrage at his missteps (and even some overblown). He's shown that your system fails to account for abuses of it from the Presidency. If your people have any sense, these holes will be plugged during the next regime to ensure against future Trumps. Its amazing that some questions that have been raised about the powers and duties of presidents can even be asked without immediate obvious answers.

That doing what is right is more important than doing what profits a handful of individuals. Not to mention the whole ‘give me your yearning masses’ we’re a nation of immigrants thing.

Both of these fictions have long been bullshit in the USA. You haven't seen either taken seriously since FDR.

Also, still waiting for your explanation about what you said about Bernie and Tulsi. Why do you think Bernie is an egomaniac and why do you think Tulsi is a foreign agent?

Sometimes outsiders such as yourself have a clear vision of the US and the US political system—and sometimes they don’t.

You actually don’t know or understand much about the US as a nation nor its political system or its politics, which is different than its political system. I’m sorry but you just don’t.

 

[laughing dog]

Carter wasn't. Reagan and Obama quickly became so. Hillary didn't start out as a sell out politics as usual corporatist either. But she became that well before she ran for the presidency. I see no risk of this happening to Yang or Bernie (or Williamson), and a slight risk of it happening to Warren, but not nearly as much with her as with others like Harris, Booker, etc. Biden is already there.

I strongly suspect you have no clue what it is like to live and work in the DC area. Almost everyone in power becomes an insider to a large degree pretty quickly or they are out on their ass.

And you don't see that as a problem? It was Carter's undoing, but he didn't get absorbed by it (good on him). Trump has been breaking it. Bernie would stand up to it. So would Yang. So would Williamson. The government should serve the people, not the other way around. It shouldn't be "I'm with her/him". It should be that she/he is with the people.

The point of being in power is getting things done. By not becoming an insider, one restricts and limits what can be accomplished.

And that brings me back to Toni's claim that Bernie is an egomaniac. Why does anyone think that? He's been about his policy ideas ahead of himself since day one.

Having policy ideas is irrelevant to the issue of egomania. I think all Presidential candidates are egomaniacs to some degree. But I think anyone who is trying to get the candidacy of political party where they are not a member is a bit of an egomaniac or Machiallevian. Then, when I watch him speak, he sounds to me as if he is some sort of prophet who has the answers and will not listen to anyone else or brook any deviation. That sounds like an egomaniac to me.

 

[repoman]

I am not saying this is the case for Biden but it might be:

What is the term for when a candidate who is not intended by TPTB to be the final nominee is used early in the race to put a damper on the buzz of the more grassroots or radical candidates?

Something like stalking horse.

 

[Toni]

Carter wasn't. Reagan and Obama quickly became so. Hillary didn't start out as a sell out politics as usual corporatist either. But she became that well before she ran for the presidency. I see no risk of this happening to Yang or Bernie (or Williamson), and a slight risk of it happening to Warren, but not nearly as much with her as with others like Harris, Booker, etc. Biden is already there.



Of Democrats, yes. Of Republicans, no. Republicans and some in the center actually did (and some amazingly still do) simply see him as the better choice. A number of Democrats did see the way to change the system as to destroy it and building something better. I understand your hesitation to not want to destroy it, but that's pretty much done now. Trump is a destruction of it, so why not now go with them for the rebuild of something better? Why rebuild the same status quo that we had before a la Biden?

Unfortunately not a mindset to do anything but damage. If that’s what you want: try it in your own country first. I’ll pop the corn.

No need. My country already has univeral single payer health care. I'd like to see dental covered. I'd like to see UBI come in as well. We tried it in Ontario but the new conservative government ended the experiment before it could get off the ground. Hopefully the next liberal government of Ontario will go back towards it. These are changes that we can steadily work towards, and we wont have people bankrupt and dying for lack of money in the interim. As for our Prime Minister Trudeau, he's a bit of a himbo and he likely wouldn't be in power if not for his family name (which irks me), but he's no Trump. We're allowing refugees and immigrants in without talk of building a wall too. Do you really want to compare countries on social policy?

What Trump has broken is a sense that integrity and rule of law matter.

No, he hasn't. There has been plenty of outrage at his missteps (and even some overblown). He's shown that your system fails to account for abuses of it from the Presidency. If your people have any sense, these holes will be plugged during the next regime to ensure against future Trumps. Its amazing that some questions that have been raised about the powers and duties of presidents can even be asked without immediate obvious answers.

That doing what is right is more important than doing what profits a handful of individuals. Not to mention the whole ‘give me your yearning masses’ we’re a nation of immigrants thing.

Both of these fictions have long been bullshit in the USA. You haven't seen either taken seriously since FDR.

Also, still waiting for your explanation about what you said about Bernie and Tulsi. Why do you think Bernie is an egomaniac and why do you think Tulsi is a foreign agent?

Watching Bernie is enough.

I've linked articles re: Tulsi. See post 1679 in the Democrats 2020 thread.

And I'm sorry: you don't know bupkis about the US. I'm beginning to think I know more about Canada than you do about the US and that's pretty pitiful. At least I don't spend hours telling Canadians that they are doing it wrong or what they are all about.

You also know bupkis about the immigrants to the US since FDR, who, btw, was not enthusiastic about welcoming Jewish refugees. On the other hand, I know more than quite a few of those yearning masses who have immigrated to the US in the past 20 years.

 

[Jason Harvestdancer]

She really does scare you. Look at the crap you are spreading about her. You're trying to tie her to Assad, Putin, and Trump.

I'm not tying her to anything. She's tied herself and reporters are reporting.

So what is it about her that does it for you, exactly? The bulge in your pants?

She didn't tie herself, but reporters are reporting it anyway.

I'm sure you think all men just think with their dicks, which is the only reason someone might support Gabbard. Men, in your world, don't actually think. It would explain why I didn't like Hillary, even though I did give lots of ideological reasons to oppose her and her policy of never seeing a country that she didn't want to invade.

By the way, opposing Hillary as a warmonger might give you a hint as to why I like Gabbard. Probably not. If you were to figure it out, it would force you to conclude that a man actually thought through an issue, and men don't do that in your world.

 

[Toni]

She really does scare you. Look at the crap you are spreading about her. You're trying to tie her to Assad, Putin, and Trump.

I'm not tying her to anything. She's tied herself and reporters are reporting.

So what is it about her that does it for you, exactly? The bulge in your pants?

She didn't tie herself, but reporters are reporting it anyway.

I'm sure you think all men just think with their dicks, which is the only reason someone might support Gabbard. Men, in your world, don't actually think. It would explain why I didn't like Hillary, even though I did give lots of ideological reasons to oppose her and her policy of never seeing a country that she didn't want to invade.

By the way, opposing Hillary as a warmonger might give you a hint as to why I like Gabbard. Probably not. If you were to figure it out, it would force you to conclude that a man actually thought through an issue, and men don't do that in your world.

My apologies if this is a repeat of a post that seems to be MIA.

Gabbard certainly has a lot of interesting connections and stances for someone who wants the Democratic nomination and to be POTUS. Until recently or until it became convenient for her to change her position, she was pretty much against abortion rights or LGBTQ rights.

I strongly suspect that you and I shared some of the same concerns about Hillary as candidate for POTUS.

You don’t know me at all. Your attempts to cast aspersions my way re: my attitudes towards men fall so far off the mark they’d have to stand on their tippy toes on the top rung of a ladder to fall flat.

But go ahead and tell yourself that I hate men or whatever garbage filters through your mind when you run into a woman who doesn’t agree with you.

 

[Jason Harvestdancer]

She didn't tie herself, but reporters are reporting it anyway.

I'm sure you think all men just think with their dicks, which is the only reason someone might support Gabbard. Men, in your world, don't actually think. It would explain why I didn't like Hillary, even though I did give lots of ideological reasons to oppose her and her policy of never seeing a country that she didn't want to invade.

By the way, opposing Hillary as a warmonger might give you a hint as to why I like Gabbard. Probably not. If you were to figure it out, it would force you to conclude that a man actually thought through an issue, and men don't do that in your world.

My apologies if this is a repeat of a post that seems to be MIA.

Gabbard certainly has a lot of interesting connections and stances for someone who wants the Democratic nomination and to be POTUS. Until recently or until it became convenient for her to change her position, she was pretty much against abortion rights or LGBTQ rights.

You know how many democrats that describes?

I strongly suspect that you and I shared some of the same concerns about Hillary as candidate for POTUS.

Yeah, but you think them because only women can think in depth. Any agreement therefore is accidental. For brutish men, it can't be because of the issues, it is either mysogyny or attraction.

 

[Elixir]

Just because you're an egomaniac, it doesn't mean you're wrong any more than being paranoid assures that they're not really after you.

 

[laughing dog]

By the way, opposing Hillary as a warmonger might give you a hint as to why I like Gabbard. Probably not. If you were to figure it out, it would force you to conclude that a man actually thought through an issue, and men don't do that in your world.

Kneejerk reaction to "warmongering" is the antithesis of thought.

 

[Toni]

I strongly suspect that you and I shared some of the same concerns about Hillary as candidate for POTUS.

Yeah, but you think them because only women can think in depth. Any agreement therefore is accidental. For brutish men, it can't be because of the issues, it is either mysogyny or attraction.

Actually I thought that you had a genuine concern about Hillary’s seeming willingness to go to war because you had given it some thought.

You seem to be working really hard to prove me wrong. But I’ve got to tell you that this supposed psychic ability you seem to believe you have is really letting you down.

 

[Jason Harvestdancer]

By the way, opposing Hillary as a warmonger might give you a hint as to why I like Gabbard. Probably not. If you were to figure it out, it would force you to conclude that a man actually thought through an issue, and men don't do that in your world.

Kneejerk reaction to "warmongering" is the antithesis of thought.

War is such a uniquely terrible thing that it is its own reason to not go to war. If you do want to make an argument in favor of a war, those reasons must be even better to overcome that high hurdle. That you don't see it makes you very much like the guy you defended.

 

[laughing dog]

By the way, opposing Hillary as a warmonger might give you a hint as to why I like Gabbard. Probably not. If you were to figure it out, it would force you to conclude that a man actually thought through an issue, and men don't do that in your world.

Kneejerk reaction to "warmongering" is the antithesis of thought.

War is such a uniquely terrible thing that it is its own reason to not go to war. If you do want to make an argument in favor of a war, those reasons must be even better to overcome that high hurdle.

Thank you Captain Obvious. Now if you would link it to why HRC was a "warmonger", you'd might have a point. All you have now another example of a kneejerk response.

[
That you don't see it makes you very much like the guy you defended.

Your confidence in your mind-reading abilities is laughable.

 

[J842P]

She didn't tie herself, but reporters are reporting it anyway.

I'm sure you think all men just think with their dicks, which is the only reason someone might support Gabbard. Men, in your world, don't actually think. It would explain why I didn't like Hillary, even though I did give lots of ideological reasons to oppose her and her policy of never seeing a country that she didn't want to invade.

By the way, opposing Hillary as a warmonger might give you a hint as to why I like Gabbard. Probably not. If you were to figure it out, it would force you to conclude that a man actually thought through an issue, and men don't do that in your world.

My apologies if this is a repeat of a post that seems to be MIA.

Gabbard certainly has a lot of interesting connections and stances for someone who wants the Democratic nomination and to be POTUS. Until recently or until it became convenient for her to change her position, she was pretty much against abortion rights or LGBTQ rights.

I strongly suspect that you and I shared some of the same concerns about Hillary as candidate for POTUS.

You don’t know me at all. Your attempts to cast aspersions my way re: my attitudes towards men fall so far off the mark they’d have to stand on their tippy toes on the top rung of a ladder to fall flat.

But go ahead and tell yourself that I hate men or whatever garbage filters through your mind when you run into a woman who doesn’t agree with you.

Bullshit, Toni. You are the one who made the initial sexist projection on to another poster, and then you take umbrage at someone calling you out on it. You are transparent as hell.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

Watching Bernie is enough.

So you admit you've got nothing.

I've linked articles re: Tulsi. See post 1679 in the Democrats 2020 thread.

I'll see what you linked. I'm not expecting much but maybe you'll surprise me....

And I'm sorry: you don't know bupkis about the US.

You're funny how you keep claiming people who you disagree with know nothing. Its almost like you're full of yourself.

I do find it sad that you refuse to push for actual hope and change for your country and instead liken Bernie and Tulsi to Trump...

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

You know how many democrats that describes?

Indeed. Both Hillary and Obama were against gay marriage, until they weren't. Politicians change.

 

[laughing dog]

She didn't tie herself, but reporters are reporting it anyway.

I'm sure you think all men just think with their dicks, which is the only reason someone might support Gabbard. Men, in your world, don't actually think. It would explain why I didn't like Hillary, even though I did give lots of ideological reasons to oppose her and her policy of never seeing a country that she didn't want to invade.

By the way, opposing Hillary as a warmonger might give you a hint as to why I like Gabbard. Probably not. If you were to figure it out, it would force you to conclude that a man actually thought through an issue, and men don't do that in your world.

My apologies if this is a repeat of a post that seems to be MIA.

Gabbard certainly has a lot of interesting connections and stances for someone who wants the Democratic nomination and to be POTUS. Until recently or until it became convenient for her to change her position, she was pretty much against abortion rights or LGBTQ rights.

I strongly suspect that you and I shared some of the same concerns about Hillary as candidate for POTUS.

You don’t know me at all. Your attempts to cast aspersions my way re: my attitudes towards men fall so far off the mark they’d have to stand on their tippy toes on the top rung of a ladder to fall flat.

But go ahead and tell yourself that I hate men or whatever garbage filters through your mind when you run into a woman who doesn’t agree with you.

Bullshit, Toni. You are the one who made the initial sexist projection on to another poster, and then you take umbrage at someone calling you out on it. You are transparent as hell.

Toni made a specific comment to a specific poster, not a generalization about men in general, so your response is not based on reality.

 

[laughing dog]

I do find it sad that you refuse to push for actual hope and change for your country and instead liken Bernie and Tulsi to Trump...

Neither Mr. Sanders nor Ms. Tulsi have a hope of affecting substantive change in the US. First, they have to get the nomination, which is a long shot for either one. Second, they have to win the election which is another long shot for either one. Third, even if they are elected, they would need to win in a landslide because without a real mandate, Congress is not going to go along with their ideas in a lock step fashion. Mr. Sanders is not a real Democrat, so he has no real base within the Congressional establishment. Ms. Tulsi has barely been around long enough to have a real base or connection with the Congressional establishment.

Mr. Sanders and Ms. Tulsi may represent the hopes and dreams of millions of Americans, but neither has a record of getting anything of substance accomplished.

Only the naive, desperate or those ignorant of the US would think either represent a real chance for substantive change.

 

[Toni]

She didn't tie herself, but reporters are reporting it anyway.

I'm sure you think all men just think with their dicks, which is the only reason someone might support Gabbard. Men, in your world, don't actually think. It would explain why I didn't like Hillary, even though I did give lots of ideological reasons to oppose her and her policy of never seeing a country that she didn't want to invade.

By the way, opposing Hillary as a warmonger might give you a hint as to why I like Gabbard. Probably not. If you were to figure it out, it would force you to conclude that a man actually thought through an issue, and men don't do that in your world.

My apologies if this is a repeat of a post that seems to be MIA.

Gabbard certainly has a lot of interesting connections and stances for someone who wants the Democratic nomination and to be POTUS. Until recently or until it became convenient for her to change her position, she was pretty much against abortion rights or LGBTQ rights.

I strongly suspect that you and I shared some of the same concerns about Hillary as candidate for POTUS.

You don’t know me at all. Your attempts to cast aspersions my way re: my attitudes towards men fall so far off the mark they’d have to stand on their tippy toes on the top rung of a ladder to fall flat.

But go ahead and tell yourself that I hate men or whatever garbage filters through your mind when you run into a woman who doesn’t agree with you.

Bullshit, Toni. You are the one who made the initial sexist projection on to another poster, and then you take umbrage at someone calling you out on it. You are transparent as hell.

Sure. That's exactly what's going on here.

 

[Toni]

So you admit you've got nothing.

Absolutely everything he's said or done for the past 40 years is not nothing. Hint: mostly what he's said because he ain't done much. Which is really a shame. If he could overcome his own righteous ego and reach out and work well with others or even work with others, he coulda been a contender.

Instead, he's embraced his 'lone wolf/righteous indignation so long that it's hard to take him seriously.


But more important than that, I really do fear that the reason he clings so hard to his talking points is that he simply doesn't have much mental agility any more. This makes him a scary prospect in the White House. We've already gotten one mentally incompetent fool. It really isn't better if this one swings left instead of right.

I'll see what you linked. I'm not expecting much but maybe you'll surprise me....

I'm trembling with anticipation! Seriously: do some google searches. When her name first came up, I looked around and was a bit alarmed that she's running--and getting support. Rumor has it a lot of it is foreign. Which is not legal.

You're funny how you keep claiming people who you disagree with know nothing. Its almost like you're full of yourself.

But seriously, you don't. You make all kinds of assertions that almost make sense but they really don't because you don't really know much about what's going on beyond whatever you read on the internets.

I do find it sad that you refuse to push for actual hope and change for your country and instead liken Bernie and Tulsi to Trump...

Bernie and Tulsi are way too much like Trump for comfort. I take no pleasure in that comparison. In fact, I find it quite upsetting. One would think that there would be only one such ideologue/century. Granted, Trump and Sanders are spanning more than one century but still. Makes my skin crawl.

I find it sad that you don't look at your own wonderful country (and I do believe that Canada is wonderful, truly!) and see if there might be something that needs improvement. Because of course there is. Because: people.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

I find it sad that you don't look at your own wonderful country (and I do believe that Canada is wonderful, truly!) and see if there might be something that needs improvement. Because of course there is. Because: people.

That's your privilege and prejudice talking again. What makes you think I don't see anything worth fixing in Canada? What makes you think I'm not actively pushing for change within Canada? Just because I don't post much of such things here where every time I have they have gone ignored because few here know anything about Canada? This isn't he forum for it. Like most online forums that pretend to be general, this one centres around US mentality and experience. And the idea that you think you may know more about another country than somebody from another country will know about the US is just plain hilarious on the face of it. I assure you, most of us non-Americans know way way way more about the USA than your people know about any of our countries.

And with you dumping on Bernie, who seeks to bring real substantial change for the better to your country, and likening him to Trump... frankly you deserve Trump. If he wasn't breathing his spittle on the the rest of the world I'd be more than happy to leave you to him.