If Biden Falls, Who Will Rise?

[Toni]

I find it sad that you don't look at your own wonderful country (and I do believe that Canada is wonderful, truly!) and see if there might be something that needs improvement. Because of course there is. Because: people.

That's your privilege and prejudice talking again. What makes you think I don't see anything worth fixing in Canada? What makes you think I'm not actively pushing for change within Canada? Just because I don't post much of such things here where every time I have they have gone ignored because few here know anything about Canada? This isn't he forum for it. Like most online forums that pretend to be general, this one centres around US mentality and experience. And the idea that you think you may know more about another country than somebody from another country will know about the US is just plain hilarious on the face of it. I assure you, most of us non-Americans know way way way more about the USA than your people know about any of our countries.

And with you dumping on Bernie, who seeks to bring real substantial change for the better to your country, and likening him to Trump... frankly you deserve Trump. If he wasn't breathing his spittle on the the rest of the world I'd be more than happy to leave you to him.

Here’s the thing: I know I don’t know much about Canadian politics. Which is why I don’t post about Canadian politics. IMO, I’d be both too arrogant to tolerate and too ill informed to offer anything useful.

I’m not saying that you fall into that category with regards to the US political system or current or recently past political climate. When you advocate for Sanders or Gabbard as agents of much needed change! And criticize others for not embracing your ill informed opinions, then that’s not just an over reach. Here you simply do not know what you are talking about. Sanders has had years to affect change in an arena where he would likely be most effective. But he hasn’t really been that effective because he won’t work with others. Oh, sure, he likes to ‘work with others’ so long as he tells them what they should do and that everyone who doesn’t share their vision is WRONG but that’s not actually a good way to win allies or to pass legislation. If he wanted to really make changes, he would join an established party or else form his own. He won’t do the first and can’t do the second because he won’t compromise and he lacks the necessary leadership skills. That makes him a poor candidate for POTUS. He’s a great ideologue but we don’t need one of those.

Gabbard simply espouses whatever she thinks will propel her into power.

Both of those descriptions could apply to Trump, except that Trump had the sense to join a party.

 

[barbos]

I hope Biden falls and Warren becomes a president.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

When you advocate for Sanders or Gabbard as agents of much needed change!

Where did I advocate for Gabbard as an agent of much needed change? I merely balked at your equating her to Donald Trump, which is patently absurd. I also balk at your accusation earlier that people could only support her because she's good looking. That was equally absurd, and rather sexist.

And criticize others for not embracing your ill informed opinions

We all criticize each other for not supporting each others opinions. You yourself do it routinely, and I consider your views quite ill informed on most matters.

Here you simply do not know what you are talking about.

I think I know as well as you do, and probably better.

Sanders has had years to affect change in an arena where he would likely be most effective.

And he has done so. He didn't win the previous presidential election (and he's not my favoured candidate in this one), but he did succeed in shifting the Democratic Party towards the left.

But he hasn’t really been that effective because he won’t work with others.

He has worked with plenty of others. I think you don't like him because he doesn't sell out. Actually I think you're just sore at him because he challenged Hillary who was to be the anointed one. I don't see you throwing the same venom as Ocasio Cortez (who worked on the Bernie campaign and stands for almost all of the same policy standings he does) or at Warren who is pretty close to him as well.

Gabbard simply espouses whatever she thinks will propel her into power.

So do most politicians. It doesn't equate them to Trump. Were Hillary and Trump the same? Actually, she and many politicians are more calculating than Trump. He's not all that calculating. He says whatever suits his ego far more than whatever will win him power.

 

[Toni]

Where did I advocate for Gabbard as an agent of much needed change? I merely balked at your equating her to Donald Trump, which is patently absurd.

It's really not absurd. Unfortunately. She and Bernie and Trump all are the sort of candidates who give rise to cult like followings--and who appear to attract a lot of support from foreign powers.

I also balk at your accusation earlier that people could only support her because she's good looking. That was equally absurd, and rather sexist.

Balk all you like but it's pretty well established that looks matter in politics and that looks matter for women far more than they do for men. I seriously doubt that she'd get any national attention if she were plainer or overweight.

We all criticize each other for not supporting each others opinions. You yourself do it routinely, and I consider your views quite ill informed on most matters.

Yes, we do. The difference is that I do not claim expertise in Canada. And I know that you consider my views ill informed. I've accepted that you are often wrong or wrong-headed.

Here you simply do not know what you are talking about.

I think I know as well as you do, and probably better.

I realize that you believe that but you are incorrect.

Sanders has had years to affect change in an arena where he would likely be most effective.

And he has done so. He didn't win the previous presidential election (and he's not my favoured candidate in this one), but he did succeed in shifting the Democratic Party towards the left.

Really, he hasn't. And no, he did not shift the Democratic Party to the left. Such leanings tend to be cyclical and what we--including you--today call 'left' is actually somewhat right of Richard Nixon in some ways.

He has worked with plenty of others. I think you don't like him because he doesn't sell out. Actually I think you're just sore at him because he challenged Hillary who was to be the anointed one. I don't see you throwing the same venom as Ocasio Cortez (who worked on the Bernie campaign and stands for almost all of the same policy standings he does) or at Warren who is pretty close to him as well.

The entire world should be bitter that Clinton didn't win. It is now a much more dangerous place. She wasn't my favorite candidate but she was the candidate. Bernie's sudden and short lived desire to become a Democrat of convenience did hurt the Dem. chances of winning the election and more so because he inspires a rabid fanbase, as does Trump. FWIW, I don't disagree with Sanders on most issues or with AOC. I DO disagree that Sanders is effective or is a good leader or would be/would have been a good POTUS. To the extent that he is effective, he is effective as the 'outsider' the person who is not in the system. The moment he becomes POTUS, he loses that entirely and is stuck with nothing but political enemies on both sides of the aisle and finds that being POTUS means compromise and leading, not just spoiling and standing on the sidelines screaming "You're all wrong and I'm right--I'm the only one who is right!" with spittle flying. He's a lot like Trump and that is indeed a sad thing. It gives me no pleasure.

AOC is more effective in her first half of her first term than Sanders has been. And yeah: a big part of it is that she's pretty. I wish that looks didn't matter but unfortunately, they do. The fact that she's so good looking does help advance her cause. The fact that she's intelligent and well informed makes her cause worth listening to.

Gabbard simply espouses whatever she thinks will propel her into power.

So do most politicians

Like Bernie?????

It doesn't equate them to Trump.

I'm not equating GAbbard to Trump but there are striking comparisons.

Were Hillary and Trump the same? Actually, she and many politicians are more calculating than Trump. He's not all that calculating. He says whatever suits his ego far more than whatever will win him power.

Trump is quite calculating in the most cynical way possible. I think he's less racist than he is willing to exploit the racism of his fanbase. I think he's less racist than he is calculatingly willing to exploit the vulnerabilities of a demographic when he can, such as in his policies when he actually ran his rentals. I think he's quite calculating when he says that he could shoot someone in the middle of the street and it wouldn't matter. The difference is that Hillary was actually attempting to put forth a political agenda for the country. Trump has only ever cared about himself.

Trump is a cult of personality. I think Bernie is as well, especially when his followers are spouting all this 'only Bernie' nonsense. Gabbard is on her way if her foreign supporters have their way.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

It's really not absurd.

It really is. To equate anybody on that Democrat debate stage with Donald Trump is absurd. Obama had a strong cult of personality behind him. Hillary was so clearly calculated that she admitted to having public and private policy positions and was against gay marriage until she was for it (as was Obama). Do you equate them both to Trump?

Balk all you like but it's pretty well established that looks matter in politics and that looks matter for women far more than they do for men. I seriously doubt that she'd get any national attention if she were plainer or overweight.

You were not saying looks merely matter. You were saying the only reason a male poster in here could like Gabbard is because she is attractive physically. Warren is far ahead of her in the polls, as are Haris and Klobuchar. Are they all just so much better looking than Gabbard?

Really, he hasn't. And no, he did not shift the Democratic Party to the left.

He most certainly has. You would not have AOC without him. You would not have medicare for all as a mainstreamed position within the Democratic party without him. Warren would also likely not have run had he not paved the way. He entered in 2016 only after she decided not to.

I'm not equating GAbbard to Trump but there are striking comparisons.

Then stop explicitly doing so. We can't read your mind that you don't really mean it. You didn't merely write that there are things in common between Gabbard and Trump. You didn't merely write that you fear she attracts foreign attention (so did Hillary). You equated her to Trump, and you equated Bernie to Trump. They are not. Neither, for her many flaws, is Hillary. Neither is Obama, Biden, Haris, Warren or any other Democrat, or any other Republican who has run for office in the past decade. Trump is a unique special snowflake all his own.

 

[Toni]

It really is. To equate anybody on that Democrat debate stage with Donald Trump is absurd. Obama had a strong cult of personality behind him. Hillary was so clearly calculated that she admitted to having public and private policy positions and was against gay marriage until she was for it (as was Obama). Do you equate them both to Trump?



You were not saying looks merely matter. You were saying the only reason a male poster in here could like Gabbard is because she is attractive physically. Warren is far ahead of her in the polls, as are Haris and Klobuchar. Are they all just so much better looking than Gabbard?

Really, he hasn't. And no, he did not shift the Democratic Party to the left.

He most certainly has. You would not have AOC without him. You would not have medicare for all as a mainstreamed position within the Democratic party without him. Warren would also likely not have run had he not paved the way. He entered in 2016 only after she decided not to.

I'm not equating GAbbard to Trump but there are striking comparisons.

Then stop explicitly doing so. We can't read your mind that you don't really mean it. You didn't merely write that there are things in common between Gabbard and Trump. You didn't merely write that you fear she attracts foreign attention (so did Hillary). You equated her to Trump, and you equated Bernie to Trump. They are not. Neither, for her many flaws, is Hillary. Neither is Obama, Biden, Haris, Warren or any other Democrat, or any other Republican who has run for office in the past decade. Trump is a unique special snowflake all his own.

Saying that someone is like Trump and then listing ways that they are like Trump is not absurd. You're free to disagree. You're free to point out ways that my comparing this action/word/deed of this candidate is different than Trump when I see it as similar all you want.

I don't care whether you agree with me.

Telling me to stop doing something isn't going to change my mind, especially when you mischaracterize what you claim I'm doing.

I've pointed out specific ways that I think that Gabbard and Sanders resemble Trump. Disagree all you want. If you want to make a point, you'll need some details.

 

[Cheerful Charlie]

So if a given politician has a following of any sort, you are going to label that "a cult"? So only those politicians that have 2% of the voter approval pass muster with you for not being "a cult"? This is nonsense.

 

[Derec]

So if a given politician has a following of any sort, you are going to label that "a cult"? So only those politicians that have 2% of the voter approval pass muster with you for not being "a cult"? This is nonsense.

It's kind of like this, but with politics instead of religion.

 

[Derec]

I hope Biden falls and Warren becomes a president.

Hopefully not. She supports reparations and she thinks, despite her (possibly AA?) law degree, that Michael Brown was "murdered". I.e., in addition to being very left on economics, she is also fully committed to identity politics.
#NeverFauxcahontas

 

[Toni]

I hope Biden falls and Warren becomes a president.

Hopefully not. She supports reparations and she thinks, despite her (possibly AA?) law degree, that Michael Brown was "murdered". I.e., in addition to being very left on economics, she is also fully committed to identity politics.
#NeverFauxcahontas

Knock the fuck off with that stupid Elizabeth Warren was only head hunted for her position at Harvard by faculty and recruiters who didn't know anything about her family history until after she was hired but she's definitely an affirmative action hire because god knows the woman didn't have a couple of arms full of accomplishments.

 

[Derec]

Knock the fuck off with that stupid Elizabeth Warren was only head hunted for her position at Harvard by faculty and recruiters who didn't know anything about her family history until after she was hired but she's definitely an affirmative action hire because god knows the woman didn't have a couple of arms full of accomplishments.

She claimed to be "American Indian" in her professional life years before she was hired by Harvard. It was hardly just "family history" that nobody outside her family/friends knew about.
Also, far from being this brilliant lawyer, she doesn't understand what "murder" is.

 

[Toni]

Knock the fuck off with that stupid Elizabeth Warren was only head hunted for her position at Harvard by faculty and recruiters who didn't know anything about her family history until after she was hired but she's definitely an affirmative action hire because god knows the woman didn't have a couple of arms full of accomplishments.

She claimed to be "American Indian" in her professional life years before she was hired by Harvard. It was hardly just "family history" that nobody outside her family/friends knew about.
Also, far from being this brilliant lawyer, she doesn't understand what "murder" is.

Yer jus jealous.

 

[barbos]

I hope Biden falls and Warren becomes a president.

Hopefully not. She supports reparations and she thinks, despite her (possibly AA?) law degree, that Michael Brown was "murdered". I.e., in addition to being very left on economics, she is also fully committed to identity politics.
#NeverFauxcahontas

I think economics is too much on the right and needs to go left a little. As for the rest I think it's just pondering to the base. Nobody in his right mind thinks that Michael Brown was murdered. I think Warren once elected will work on the economy mostly. Andrew Yang is the best candidate but he is not winning

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

Saying that someone is like Trump and then listing ways that they are like Trump is not absurd.

Agreed. That would not be absurd. There are many ways that Hillary, Obama, Bernie, Gabbard, you, and your neighbor are like Trump too, and I see no fault in listing what you've got in common.

But that's quite a shift of the goalposts, Toni. This is the absurd thing you wrote:

I really do see Bernie/Trump as two sides of the same coin: ego maniacs, old men who have been past their prime for at least 20 years who are only able to rile their rabid bases and frankly, that's all they care about and their own egos. Trump/Gabbard are identical, imo.

You've got absolutely no basis for your attacks on either Bernie or Gabbard in equating them to Trump so strongly. They have their faults of course, but that's not what you addressed.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

So if a given politician has a following of any sort, you are going to label that "a cult"? So only those politicians that have 2% of the voter approval pass muster with you for not being "a cult"? This is nonsense.

Only if its somebody she dislikes. Note how she didn't respond to my point that Obama had quite a vigorous and enthusiastic following.

 

[laughing dog]

Saying that someone is like Trump and then listing ways that they are like Trump is not absurd.

Agreed. That would not be absurd. There are many ways that Hillary, Obama, Bernie, Gabbard, you, and your neighbor are like Trump too, and I see no fault in listing what you've got in common.

But that's quite a shift of the goalposts, Toni. This is the absurd thing you wrote:

I really do see Bernie/Trump as two sides of the same coin: ego maniacs, old men who have been past their prime for at least 20 years who are only able to rile their rabid bases and frankly, that's all they care about and their own egos. Trump/Gabbard are identical, imo.

You've got absolutely no basis for your attacks on either Bernie or Gabbard in equating them to Trump so strongly.

Um, she listed the basis for her view about Trump and Sanders. You don't have to like her reasons nor do you have to accept them, but she is entitled to her views.

As to Trump and Gabbard, she already made her point about foreign interference. Apparently the Russian troll machine is touting her, just like it went to work for Trump. Once again, you don't have to like her reasons nor do you have to accept them, but she is entitled to her views.

In both cases, she gave her basis for her views. So your claim that Toni has no basis is false. Please either amend your claim or stop telling such blatant falsehoods.

 

[southernhybrid]

Not that Toni needs any validation, but I agree with what she has said about Sanders. To me, he's totally off the rails. He may not be as nutty as Trump but he's stubborn, irrational and doesn't seem to understand the word compromise. Gabbard has no chance of winning the nomination so I don't even take her seriously.

And, I'm not interested in any candidate who is under the age of 45, and doesn't have what I would consider to be relevant experience for the job. There are plenty of things I could criticize Warren for, but she's very energetic, and smart. I feel quite confident that she will track to the middle if she is elected. If not, she will get nothing accomplished. Unlike Trump and Sanders, I think she would try to represent the entire country and not just her base. To be perfectly honest, I'm not thrilled with any of the numerous candidates, but almost any of them will be a big improvement compared to Trump.

We all have our opinions about the candidates and it seems nonsensical for us to try and convince each other who to support. Fortunately, people in Canada don't get to vote in US elections, just like we don't get to vote in the elections of other countries.

 

[Harry Bosch]

Not that Toni needs any validation, but I agree with what she has said about Sanders. To me, he's totally off the rails. He may not be as nutty as Trump but he's stubborn, irrational and doesn't seem to understand the word compromise. Gabbard has no chance of winning the nomination so I don't even take her seriously.

And, I'm not interested in any candidate who is under the age of 45, and doesn't have what I would consider to be relevant experience for the job. There are plenty of things I could criticize Warren for, but she's very energetic, and smart. I feel quite confident that she will track to the middle if she is elected. If not, she will get nothing accomplished. Unlike Trump and Sanders, I think she would try to represent the entire country and not just her base. To be perfectly honest, I'm not thrilled with any of the numerous candidates, but almost any of them will be a big improvement compared to Trump.

We all have our opinions about the candidates and it seems nonsensical for us to try and convince each other who to support. Fortunately, people in Canada don't get to vote in US elections, just like we don't get to vote in the elections of other countries.

I personally met Bernie in 2016. I introduced him in a town hall kind of debate near a reservation. Bernie launched into his spiel, then there was Q&A. The thing that I noticed about Bernie is that he does not listen to people. He came in with an agenda. But he couldn't listen and then respond to the issues the crowd wanted to hear. They wanted to hear issues that affected the reservation and local issues. I also didn't find him to be very warm back stage or personable.

 

[Toni]

So if a given politician has a following of any sort, you are going to label that "a cult"? So only those politicians that have 2% of the voter approval pass muster with you for not being "a cult"? This is nonsense.

No. I see much of Trump’s base as being cult-like. There is a certain blind devotion that overlooks any possible flaw. This seems to have lessened among over time. I’m not seeing a lot if MAGA hats or signs. Fewer people are taking about him as though he is the second coming. I see at least a portion of Bernie supporters as cult like: they believe he has no flaws, they believe that only Bernie can (fill in the blank) and they brook no criticism or counterpoints if someone disagrees. I’ve only recently run into anyone who takes Gabbard at all seriously. But it’s similar: not people who will tolerate any mention of weak points or any discussion —nothing but rabid support.

I don’t care which candidate it is: this is unwise and anti-democratic behavior.

My top candidates are Harris, Warren, Booker and maybe Klobuchar. None of them is perfect but they each have strengths that I think could make them effective as POTUS and as national and international leaders. They are all bright, hard working and devoted to public service. They are not self-agrandizing in the way s that Trump obviously is and imo, that Bernie is IMO. I find it frightening that anyone is remotely considering Gabbard seriously. I have very deep concerns about where her money is coming from and how many bots she has working for her.

 

[barbos]

I personally met Bernie in 2016. I introduced him in a town hall kind of debate near a reservation. Bernie launched into his spiel, then there was Q&A. The thing that I noticed about Bernie is that he does not listen to people. He came in with an agenda. But he couldn't listen and then respond to the issues the crowd wanted to hear. They wanted to hear issues that affected the reservation and local issues. I also didn't find him to be very warm back stage or personable.

This is consistent with my impression (from TV only) of him. Bernie is a broken record. I think his age is a problem.
In contrast Warren physically and mentally looks 60 to me.