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If Solar And Wind Are So Cheap, Why Are They Making Electricity So Expensive?

Denand forcoal has dropped, price should rise to maintain profit. With large scale fracking and shale oil supply increased, price dropped, and oil companies went out of business.

Back in the 50s we lived in a place with coal heat.

I beieve the ISS uses flywheels for energy storafe wjen the solar panels are dark.

We could easily have an energy system of non fossil fuels, at least techically.

It would require a restructuring of business and general life. Society would have to adjust energy usage and time.
 
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We could easily have an energy system of non fossil fuels, at least techically.
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Of course we could. Humanity lived without using fossil fuels from the beginning of humanity until the industrial revolution. Of course, if we stopped using fossil fuels we would have to sacrifice most of our current standard of living and probably quickly deforest the planet with seven billion people competing for fire wood.
 
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We could easily have an energy system of non fossil fuels, at least techically.
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Of course we could. Humanity lived without using fossil fuels from the beginning of humanity until the industrial revolution. Of course, if we stopped using fossil fuels we would have to sacrifice most of our current standard of living and probably quickly deforest the planet with seven billion people competing for fire wood.

Or we could just replace them with nuclear power, and keep our standard of living, while massively reducing pollution, and saving the huge numbers of lives currently lost in the fossil fuel industries.
 
I am pro nuclear power to work with renewable energy.

I believe the French used a common design with a common control room.

The first use of controlled fire and heat used organic materials .. IOW wood.
 
Abstract: To displace fossil fuels and achieve the global greenhouse-gas emissions reductions required to meet the Paris Agreement on climate change, the prevalent argument is that a mix of different low-carbon energy sources will need to be deployed. Here we seek to challenge that viewpoint. We argue that a completely decarbonized, energy-rich and sustainable future could be achieved with a dominant deployment of next-generation nuclear fission and associated technologies for synthesizing liquid fuels and recycling waste. By contrast, non-dispatchable energy sources like wind and solar energy are arguably superfluous, other than for niche applications, and run the risk of diverting resources away from viable and holistic solutions.
http://www.mdpi.com/2071-1050/10/2/302/htm
 
Abstract: To displace fossil fuels and achieve the global greenhouse-gas emissions reductions required to meet the Paris Agreement on climate change, the prevalent argument is that a mix of different low-carbon energy sources will need to be deployed. Here we seek to challenge that viewpoint. We argue that a completely decarbonized, energy-rich and sustainable future could be achieved with a dominant deployment of next-generation nuclear fission and associated technologies for synthesizing liquid fuels and recycling waste. By contrast, non-dispatchable energy sources like wind and solar energy are arguably superfluous, other than for niche applications, and run the risk of diverting resources away from viable and holistic solutions.
http://www.mdpi.com/2071-1050/10/2/302/htm
Paid by nukes lobby?
And carbon based liquid fuels? from carbon in the atmosphere?
 
I'd hardley call alternative energy superfulous. The link I posted shows otherwise.

As to farmers, farming outside of big ag is a low margin business. Saving a few thousand a year is important.
 
Energy is a commodity just like food. Some places have a public power utility.

In the southwest new housing developments commonly include solar.

The main reason to go solar is to decentralize power. It is more secure and disaster proof, witness Puerto Rico. PR should be heavily vested in solar.

Commodities can be stored. Many things we harvest at one time in the year and then eat for the rest of the year.

Services can't be stored. They're consumed when they are produced.

Electricity can't be meaningfully stored, it's a service.

And lets look at what would happen if Puerto Rico had a whole bunch of solar:

Exactly what happened anyway.

1) For safety reasons on-grid solar installations shut down when the power grid goes down.

2) You can use more complex (expen$ive) switching equipment that will leave your solar power still working when the grid goes down. It will produce nowhere near what it normally produces, though. The only way to get full output is to have some reserve--batteries. Last I looked there is no battery that has a life cycle cost lower than typical electric cost. (That's just the wear on the battery, not the cost of the power to charge it.)
 
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We could easily have an energy system of non fossil fuels, at least techically.
... snip ...
Of course we could. Humanity lived without using fossil fuels from the beginning of humanity until the industrial revolution. Of course, if we stopped using fossil fuels we would have to sacrifice most of our current standard of living and probably quickly deforest the planet with seven billion people competing for fire wood.
Thus implying the  Olduvai theory, that our industrial civilization will have a lifetime limited by availability of convenient fossil-fuel deposits. That means that it will end at most a century after the present, and likely earlier.

But renewable energy sources are being developed fast enough to avoid that fate, it seems to me.

GLOBAL STATISTICS | GWEC: in 2007, total installed wind-turbine capacity was 540 GW, while 52 GW was installed in that year. That makes for an e-folding time of about 10 years or a doubling time of 7 years. Meaning that much of the installed capacity is still the earlier, more expensive installations.

 Growth of photovoltaics -- will reach 500 GW of capacity this year.

 Electric energy consumption -- world electricity generation: 2.4 terawatts (2400 GW), China: 550 GW, US 480 GW.

World electricity generation breaks down as fossil fuels 68%, nuclear 11%, renewables 21%
More detailed breakdown: Coal/Peat (39.3%), Natural Gas (22.9%), Hydro (16.0%), Nuclear (10.6%), Oil (4.1%), Others (Renew.) (7.1%)

 World energy consumption (2013 numbers) total consumption from primary energy sources: 18 terawatts
Breakdown (2015): Coal (30%), Natural Gas (24%), Hydro (7%), Nuclear (4%), Oil (33%), Others (Renew.) (2%)

To generate all the world's electricity, it will take 24 years, reaching completion in 2042. For all the world's primary energy supplies, it will take 36 years, reaching completion in 2054.
 
Abstract: To displace fossil fuels and achieve the global greenhouse-gas emissions reductions required to meet the Paris Agreement on climate change, the prevalent argument is that a mix of different low-carbon energy sources will need to be deployed. Here we seek to challenge that viewpoint. We argue that a completely decarbonized, energy-rich and sustainable future could be achieved with a dominant deployment of next-generation nuclear fission and associated technologies for synthesizing liquid fuels and recycling waste. By contrast, non-dispatchable energy sources like wind and solar energy are arguably superfluous, other than for niche applications, and run the risk of diverting resources away from viable and holistic solutions.
http://www.mdpi.com/2071-1050/10/2/302/htm
That is, synthetic fuels or synfuels.

To date, synfuel manufacture has had the most success when oil supplies are very restricted, or else in niche applications, like well-behaved motor oil. It is still too expensive for general use.

But it is being actively researched, with electrically-powered variations called power-to-gas and power-to-liquid. There is even a version of the latter called e-diesel or blue crude.

Synfuels are often made with coal for their carbon, but their carbon can also be supplied by getting carbon dioxide from the air, making the process carbon-neutral.
 
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We could easily have an energy system of non fossil fuels, at least techically.
... snip ...
Of course we could. Humanity lived without using fossil fuels from the beginning of humanity until the industrial revolution. Of course, if we stopped using fossil fuels we would have to sacrifice most of our current standard of living and probably quickly deforest the planet with seven billion people competing for fire wood.
Thus implying the  Olduvai theory, that our industrial civilization will have a lifetime limited by availability of convenient fossil-fuel deposits. That means that it will end at most a century after the present, and likely earlier.

But renewable energy sources are being developed fast enough to avoid that fate, it seems to me.

GLOBAL STATISTICS | GWEC: in 2007, total installed wind-turbine capacity was 540 GW, while 52 GW was installed in that year. That makes for an e-folding time of about 10 years or a doubling time of 7 years. Meaning that much of the installed capacity is still the earlier, more expensive installations.

 Growth of photovoltaics -- will reach 500 GW of capacity this year.

 Electric energy consumption -- world electricity generation: 2.4 terawatts (2400 GW), China: 550 GW, US 480 GW.

World electricity generation breaks down as fossil fuels 68%, nuclear 11%, renewables 21%
More detailed breakdown: Coal/Peat (39.3%), Natural Gas (22.9%), Hydro (16.0%), Nuclear (10.6%), Oil (4.1%), Others (Renew.) (7.1%)

 World energy consumption (2013 numbers) total consumption from primary energy sources: 18 terawatts
Breakdown (2015): Coal (30%), Natural Gas (24%), Hydro (7%), Nuclear (4%), Oil (33%), Others (Renew.) (2%)

To generate all the world's electricity, it will take 24 years, reaching completion in 2042. For all the world's primary energy supplies, it will take 36 years, reaching completion in 2054.

Installed capacity is a bogus measure for intermittent renewables. 500GW of solar installed capacity translates to about 125GW of actual electricity produced - much of that at times when its value is close to (or even below) zero.

A modern society needs electricity 24x7, and it needs supply to track the demand curve. Solar power cannot achieve either without MASSIVE amounts of storage - it's not unusual to have an overcast few days, or even a week, so you need in the order of 2400 x 24 x 7 = 403,200TWh of storage, in addition to at least 20TW of installed solar capacity (using circa 40sq km of land per GW, or about 800,000 sq km of land - an area about the size of the Amazon rainforest, and not including land required for the storage needs) if you are to provide the 2.4TW that is current demand.

Or you could just build 2.4TW of nuclear power capacity, and make electricity at night time, and when it's cloudy, and when the weather is calm.
 
Abstract: To displace fossil fuels and achieve the global greenhouse-gas emissions reductions required to meet the Paris Agreement on climate change, the prevalent argument is that a mix of different low-carbon energy sources will need to be deployed. Here we seek to challenge that viewpoint. We argue that a completely decarbonized, energy-rich and sustainable future could be achieved with a dominant deployment of next-generation nuclear fission and associated technologies for synthesizing liquid fuels and recycling waste. By contrast, non-dispatchable energy sources like wind and solar energy are arguably superfluous, other than for niche applications, and run the risk of diverting resources away from viable and holistic solutions.
http://www.mdpi.com/2071-1050/10/2/302/htm
That is, synthetic fuels or synfuels.

To date, synfuel manufacture has had the most success when oil supplies are very restricted, or else in niche applications, like well-behaved motor oil. It is still too expensive for general use.

But it is being actively researched, with electrically-powered variations called power-to-gas and power-to-liquid. There is even a version of the latter called e-diesel or blue crude.

Synfuels are often made with coal for their carbon, but their carbon can also be supplied by getting carbon dioxide from the air, making the process carbon-neutral.

Sourcing carbon from fossil fuels obviously makes syn-fuel a bit pointless wrt carbon dioxide emissions control. Historically it was done in Germany during WWII, and South Africa during the apartheid era, in both cases due to the difficulty of obtaining mineral oil.

The processes required to make synfuels are all well understood; but the big problem is getting CO2 out of air - because, perhaps paradoxically, there's not very much of it in air to begin with. The most efficient approach currently available is to grow fast growing plants, and then burn them to generate CO2 in concentrated form; But that's not really ideal.

Whether it ultimately makes more sense to use carbon neutral electricity to charge electric vehicle batteries, or to make synfuels to run internal combustion vehicles, remains to be seen.
 
The processes required to make synfuels are all well understood; but the big problem is getting CO2 out of air - because, perhaps paradoxically, there's not very much of it in air to begin with.
Not much??? Do you mean low concentration? It's currently 410 ppm by volume, or 0.041% per volume. I concede that that is not a very high concentration.
 
The processes required to make synfuels are all well understood; but the big problem is getting CO2 out of air - because, perhaps paradoxically, there's not very much of it in air to begin with.
Not much??? Do you mean low concentration? It's currently 410 ppm by volume, or 0.041% per volume. I concede that that is not a very high concentration.

Yes, that's what I mean. To be a viable feedstock for synfuel production, you want at least 10% CO2, and preferably without more than 1% O2.

Even a disastrous 0.05% CO2 concentration would be way too low for economic extraction of the stuff with current technology.

The paradox is that far too much atmospheric CO2 for life, is still far too little to be commercially useful.

The big barrier to synfuel production is obtaining sufficient concentrations of CO2 without burning fossil fuels to get it - which kinda defeats the purpose.
 
If it were actually cheaper to use solar and wind than coal then the power industry would have already switched from coal to those sources to cut their costs and increase their profits.
That's what's been happening, but it has been a gradual process, not an instantaneous one.

This comment is like someone a century ago asking what was so great about horseless carriages when large numbers of people continue to use horses.

That's not what's been happening. What's been happening is that wind and solar producers have been massively subsidised and protected from the reality that they cost more. And as the article in the OP points out, the result has been massive rises in electricity prices, where these have been widely adopted.

Electricity is a service, not a commodity - what people are prepared to pay for is electricity when they want or need it. What the big wind and solar producing nations now have is a situation where people are made to buy electricity when the producers have it to sell. Whether they need it or not. And then they also have to pay for the standby generation - usually gas - that has to be there for the big gaps when wind and solar produce nothing.

Even if we magically replaced the gas backups with some kind of miraculously adequate storage solution, the cost of that solution still must be worn by the consumers, and it's just poor accounting not to include that cost when considering whether intermittent renewables are cost effective.

There are only three serious contenders for making electricity without carbon dioxide emissions. Wind, Solar, and Nuclear. France, Sweden and Ontario have gone with nuclear; Germany and Denmark with wind. Nobody has yet gone far into solar, but California is starting to do so.

We can compare the results fairly easily. And doing so, we find that the nuclear nations have far lower carbon dioxide emissions, and far lower electricity bills, than the wind nations; And the fledgling solar adopters are going the same way as the wind power people.

Of course, the very powerful lobby in favour of wind and solar make it easy to imagine that this is not the case, by presenting irrelevant facts (eg 'Denmark runs for three days on wind power alone' - sure, but three days is meaningless. Wake me up when they run for a year on more than 90% renewables).

But an honest review of the bottom line - actual carbon dioxide emissions over a year; actual power prices averaged over all consumers for a year - shows the real story. Compare France and Sweden with Denmark and Germany in the video below. Then try to tell me, with a straight face, how effective Germany or Denmark have been at reducing carbon dioxide emissions.

Solar power has a capacity factor of around 30% in the tropics, dropping off dramatically at high latitudes. Wind has a capacity factor of between 30 and 55%, most sites at the lower end of that range. Nuclear power plants have a capacity factor of over 90%, and unlike wind or solar, the timing of the unproductive periods is flexible and can be planned to coincide with low demand, or to avoid coinciding with downtime at other nearby facilities.

Intermittent renewables are very cheap and clean. Sometimes. But the majority of the time, they are actually coal or gas. Which costs nearly as much with wind and solar as it would without.

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G6EOoC_kKI0[/YOUTUBE]

So continue to subsidize it. What does it matter how many America points we throw at it if it secures the future of our planet? All the money we throw at useless fruitless wars and we can't subsidize a national solar service? Hell you could build them across the entire nation including the pacific isles and just connecting it all up the same way we do with telecommunication cables. Why not?
 
That's not what's been happening. What's been happening is that wind and solar producers have been massively subsidised and protected from the reality that they cost more. And as the article in the OP points out, the result has been massive rises in electricity prices, where these have been widely adopted.

Electricity is a service, not a commodity - what people are prepared to pay for is electricity when they want or need it. What the big wind and solar producing nations now have is a situation where people are made to buy electricity when the producers have it to sell. Whether they need it or not. And then they also have to pay for the standby generation - usually gas - that has to be there for the big gaps when wind and solar produce nothing.

Even if we magically replaced the gas backups with some kind of miraculously adequate storage solution, the cost of that solution still must be worn by the consumers, and it's just poor accounting not to include that cost when considering whether intermittent renewables are cost effective.

There are only three serious contenders for making electricity without carbon dioxide emissions. Wind, Solar, and Nuclear. France, Sweden and Ontario have gone with nuclear; Germany and Denmark with wind. Nobody has yet gone far into solar, but California is starting to do so.

We can compare the results fairly easily. And doing so, we find that the nuclear nations have far lower carbon dioxide emissions, and far lower electricity bills, than the wind nations; And the fledgling solar adopters are going the same way as the wind power people.

Of course, the very powerful lobby in favour of wind and solar make it easy to imagine that this is not the case, by presenting irrelevant facts (eg 'Denmark runs for three days on wind power alone' - sure, but three days is meaningless. Wake me up when they run for a year on more than 90% renewables).

But an honest review of the bottom line - actual carbon dioxide emissions over a year; actual power prices averaged over all consumers for a year - shows the real story. Compare France and Sweden with Denmark and Germany in the video below. Then try to tell me, with a straight face, how effective Germany or Denmark have been at reducing carbon dioxide emissions.

Solar power has a capacity factor of around 30% in the tropics, dropping off dramatically at high latitudes. Wind has a capacity factor of between 30 and 55%, most sites at the lower end of that range. Nuclear power plants have a capacity factor of over 90%, and unlike wind or solar, the timing of the unproductive periods is flexible and can be planned to coincide with low demand, or to avoid coinciding with downtime at other nearby facilities.

Intermittent renewables are very cheap and clean. Sometimes. But the majority of the time, they are actually coal or gas. Which costs nearly as much with wind and solar as it would without.

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G6EOoC_kKI0[/YOUTUBE]

So continue to subsidize it. What does it matter how many America points we throw at it if it secures the future of our planet? All the money we throw at useless fruitless wars and we can't subsidize a national solar service? Hell you could build them across the entire nation including the pacific isles and just connecting it all up the same way we do with telecommunication cables. Why not?

How does continuing to subsidize the burning of gas secure the future of our planet??

look at the video above. The consistently dark green countries are the ones we should all emulate - they have successfully reduced emissions. The yellow and brown countries we should try to be less like.

The green countries all use nuclear and hydro power as their major generation sources. The yellow and brown ones are the ones that have subsidized wind and/or solar. (The black ones are the ones that have done nothing very much to reduce their reliance on coal - nobody should be like them).

How can you look at that map, and not conclude that nuclear plus hydro is the smart place to put your subsidies, rather than wind and solar? It's a no-brainer.
 
A fact I just heard. All of the current nuclear waste will fit on a few football fields.

If we switch to large scale nuclear power hydro is not needed. What individual and community solar does is decentralize power generation. A small group of knowledgeable engineers could cripple our distribution system.It is not just solar voltaic. Commercial heliostats exist. They create steam that can run turbines.
 
A fact I just heard. All of the current nuclear waste will fit on a few football fields.

If we switch to large scale nuclear power hydro is not needed. What individual and community solar does is decentralize power generation. A small group of knowledgeable engineers could cripple our distribution system.It is not just solar voltaic. Commercial heliostats exist. They create steam that can run turbines.

All of the current nuclear waste can be burned as fuel in GenIV reactors; It's not a problem, so much as it is a resource.
 
One would not use atmospheric-concentration CO2 directly. One would extract it from the air and then use it.

SYNTHETIC FUELS FROM ATMOSPHERIC CARBON DIOXIDE - 16_4_BOSTON_04-72_0017.pdf -- proposed baking limestone to extract CO2. Not very good. But the rest of it is good, like the Fischer-Tropsch reaction to make synfuels.

The entrepreneurs turning carbon dioxide into fuels | Guardian Sustainable Business | The Guardian
In an industrial greenhouse about 30km from Zurich, plump aubergines and juicy cherry tomatoes are ripening to perfection. Growing Mediterranean crops in Switzerland would traditionally be energy intensive but these vegetables are very nearly carbon-neutral. The greenhouse uses waste energy from a nearby refuse plant, and carbon dioxide from the world’s first commercial direct air capture plant.
From Climeworks – Capturing CO2 from Air. From Our Technology | Climeworks – Capturing CO2 from Air, its method is to use a membrane that makes CO2 molecules stick to it. After the membrane gets loaded enough, it is then heated to 100 C to drive off its CO2.

Zero emission synfuel from seawater | Brave New Climate -- extracting CO2 from seawater.
Rather than going after the CO2 directly with chemical scrubbers, they use electrochemical processes to split seawater into an acid and base stream, and the CO2 bubbles off from the acidified water. The two streams are recombined and returned to the ocean.
Estimated cost of resulting synfuel: $0.79/liter or $2.98/gallon. So it's borderline competitive.
 
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