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Impeachment II thread

No, that is NOT "the whole point".
Additional points include preventing him from getting back into power and taking away the millions upon millions worth of undeserved "perks".

That's a bit petty. He has been the elected president of the nation. Doesn't he deserve some perks just on that basis? And what's wrong with him being eligible for office again? USA is a democracy. If most Americans want him back then he should. Don't you agree?

The American Constitution does not agree.

And, it's like cutting a tumor out and not taking chemo or follow-up treatment.

Yeah, the "tumor" is gone, but you absolutely need to keep getting treatment so that it won't come back, as much as can be managed (political groups, like tumors, have a stunning tenacity to hold on sometimes).

You can't just be satisfied that it looks like you got all of it. You can be sure, in fact, that you did not. Hit it with some chemo. Make sure it's as gone as you can get it.

For those who aren't getting it, Trump is a tumor, and impeachment + jail is the solution. In fact, jail and impeach his whole dynasty.
 
No, that is NOT "the whole point".
Additional points include preventing him from getting back into power and taking away the millions upon millions worth of undeserved "perks".

That's a bit petty. He has been the elected president of the nation. Doesn't he deserve some perks just on that basis? And what's wrong with him being eligible for office again? USA is a democracy. If most Americans want him back then he should. Don't you agree?

Most Americans want to pay $0 in federal taxes to support the country's infrastructure. If most American's wish to pay no taxes, then don't you agree they should not?

I believe in democracy. So then yes. But I also believe that most Americans are smart enough to understand how money works and don't actually want that
 
I'm sorry to ruin your metaphor, but the Americans have flushed already. The turd is gone. All that is left is a bit of stink. That's not going to go away with an impeachment. The stink will stay.

I live in Colorado, but travel to NY from time to time... If I murder someone in NY, get arrested and indicted, then get out of jail on bail before trial, I then should be able to go home to Colorado and not face any penalty in NY, because I left the state, right?

Trump left office, so his crimes in office are just as irrelevant as my NY murder... because I changed jurisdiction. Furthermore, penalizing me for murder wouldn't bring that person back to life... so actually it makes no sense to penalize someone for such a "crime" at all.

OR.. maybe you have an idea why it might make sense to go ahead with penalizing me for my out of state murder... how that wouldn't apply to Trump and his crimes is beyond me. Looking forward to your explanation..

But what's the point of the impeachment other than to make Trump hurt? Why hurt him at all?

Isn't it better to let the Americans decide if they want him back through votes?

While I think Trump is a vile creature, this is politics. No side looks good when kicking someone already down. I think it is petty
 
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Other than committing repeated crimes regarding election fraud (Ukraine, GA phone call, inciting a riot at the Capitol)?

If enough people think he's guilty they won't vote for him again. Isn't that good enough?

No. Not in the least. Not for the republicans who don't want their brand having competition in the idea space, not for the democrats who don't want to risk exactly what happened with Hitler (who lost his office, went to jail, the took over again and committed a Holocaust).

At issue complicating this is that Trump is more a family/dynasty than hitler was so we will probably have to pin his whole family to the wall, as well as remain vigilant against the second push, which will happen in 4 years, and will really determine whether we are going to see the war Einstein was talking about where we all come out the other side fighting with sticks and stones.
 
Other than committing repeated crimes regarding election fraud (Ukraine, GA phone call, inciting a riot at the Capitol)?

If enough people think he's guilty they won't vote for him again. Isn't that good enough?

What other criminals should not be prosecuted just because they did it in the past?
 
Other than committing repeated crimes regarding election fraud (Ukraine, GA phone call, inciting a riot at the Capitol)?

If enough people think he's guilty they won't vote for him again. Isn't that good enough?

Obviously the framers of the Constitution didn’t believe so, so they included the option to bar removed officers from future office.

The United States isn’t a pure democracy. It wasn’t established as such and remains not one to this day.
 
Other than committing repeated crimes regarding election fraud (Ukraine, GA phone call, inciting a riot at the Capitol)?

If enough people think he's guilty they won't vote for him again. Isn't that good enough?

No. Not in the least. Not for the republicans who don't want their brand having competition in the idea space, not for the democrats who don't want to risk exactly what happened with Hitler (who lost his office, went to jail, the took over again and committed a Holocaust).

If you don't believe in the democratic process, and the ability of the American voters to keep from voting for tyrants, then why do you care? You can't believe in democracy, free speech and free expression, some of the time. It's an all or nothing situation. I think blocking Trump from running goes against the democratic values we're supposed to be for. It sucks that you don't trust the judgement of a large proportion of the American voters. Well.. tough luck. That's how most people feel in a democracy most of the time.

At issue complicating this is that Trump is more a family/dynasty than hitler was so we will probably have to pin his whole family to the wall, as well as remain vigilant against the second push, which will happen in 4 years, and will really determine whether we are going to see the war Einstein was talking about where we all come out the other side fighting with sticks and stones.

But the problem with Hitler wasn't the fact that he was a tyrant and derailed Germany's democracy as soon as he could, but the fact that people voted for him. He did exactly what he promised he'd do. He was openly and overtly anti-democratic. Yeah, it sucked that so many people voted for him and underestimated his evil. But that is democracy. That is the price we pay for having this system of government.
 
Other than committing repeated crimes regarding election fraud (Ukraine, GA phone call, inciting a riot at the Capitol)?

If enough people think he's guilty they won't vote for him again. Isn't that good enough?

Explain how giving Trump a pass doesn't embolden the future Trump 2.0 to go further. Because sure as my arse has a hole in it, there will be another Trump demagogue in US politics. Fix the problem now so it won't be a fucking disaster later.

It sucks that you don't trust the judgement of a large proportion of the American voters.

Ironically, that is exactly what you are doing. The American people voted for their Congress, Senate and President to govern and represent them. If you think micro managing every single decision they make is constructive...well you'd be in the minority,
 
No. Not in the least. Not for the republicans who don't want their brand having competition in the idea space, not for the democrats who don't want to risk exactly what happened with Hitler (who lost his office, went to jail, the took over again and committed a Holocaust).

If you don't believe in the democratic process, and the ability of the American voters to keep from voting for tyrants, then why do you care? You can't believe in democracy, free speech and free expression, some of the time. It's an all or nothing situation. I think blocking Trump from running goes against the democratic values we're supposed to be for. It sucks that you don't trust the judgement of a large proportion of the American voters. Well.. tough luck. That's how most people feel in a democracy most of the time.

At issue complicating this is that Trump is more a family/dynasty than hitler was so we will probably have to pin his whole family to the wall, as well as remain vigilant against the second push, which will happen in 4 years, and will really determine whether we are going to see the war Einstein was talking about where we all come out the other side fighting with sticks and stones.

But the problem with Hitler wasn't the fact that he was a tyrant and derailed Germany's democracy as soon as he could, but the fact that people voted for him. He did exactly what he promised he'd do. He was openly and overtly anti-democratic. Yeah, it sucked that so many people voted for him and underestimated his evil. But that is democracy. That is the price we pay for having this system of government.

Yes. People, in a world where roughly half of people couldn't, DIDN'T pass the turing test, it is necessary. We proved as a species that even after jailing someone criminally unqualified for the job after the fact that he still managed to get voted in.

I don't give a shit about what "people voted for", because we have, in direct evidence, what happens when we allow this cycle to keep iterating. It's why we have laws in the first place. You are literally asking us to do the same damn thing that sunk Nazi germany and allowed WWII to spin up.

That isn't the price of government to allow, that's the price of stupidity, insanity to do the same thing twice and expect a different outcome.

By actually applying the laws we have, impeachment in particular, we can hopefully put a wrench in those gears, mostly because I don't want to have to fight in another stupid fucking war.
 
Other than committing repeated crimes regarding election fraud (Ukraine, GA phone call, inciting a riot at the Capitol)?

If enough people think he's guilty they won't vote for him again. Isn't that good enough?
And if 2/3's of the Senate that was sent to DC to govern by the people say Trump shouldn't be eligible to be President again because of his egregious anti-democracy actions, why should their judgment be ignored? They were sent by the people after all, and it'd be a strongly bipartisan to get to 2/3's.
 
If you don't believe in the democratic process, and the ability of the American voters to keep from voting for tyrants, then why do you care? You can't believe in democracy, free speech and free expression, some of the time. It's an all or nothing situation. I think blocking Trump from running goes against the democratic values we're supposed to be for. It sucks that you don't trust the judgement of a large proportion of the American voters. Well.. tough luck. That's how most people feel in a democracy most of the time.

But it is not against American values. In fact, it is written directly into the Constitution so it can’t be. Maybe you might want a different democracy, but that’s not what we have.

The founders of the United States didn’t trust the judgment of the American public. That’s why so few could even vote in the beginning. That’s why the electoral college exists. The country isn’t a democracy. It is a federation of states and as such some people’s votes count more than others toward the election of federal officials. That’s certainly not democratic.

We live in the country we have, not the one we might wish to have. If there were enough impetus from the American public to change these things there is a mechanism to do so, and yet it hasn’t been done. There are a wide range of values amongst the American people and there’s a good percentage of the public whose values differ from yours.
 
But what's the point of the impeachment other than to make Trump hurt? Why hurt him at all?

It's like prosecuting a criminal.
As President, he had all kinds of immunity. Impeachment is about the only way to hold a president accountable. But prosecuting criminals is important, even if only for the deterrence.
Tom
 
If you don't believe in the democratic process, and the ability of the American voters to keep from voting for tyrants, then why do you care? You can't believe in democracy, free speech and free expression, some of the time. It's an all or nothing situation.
This is beyond naive, and into frankly stupid territory. Democracy, like civil rights, are not 'all or nothing', unless every single person agrees with every single other person.

At some point, differnt opinions limit rights in various ways. This is so basic I have to wonder if you really meant what you wrote.
 
So Schumer is saying the trial could begin on Tuesday. McConnell wants to push it back to mid February to give Trump’s legal team a chance to prepare. I just want 20 Republicans to vote to convict.

Let’s predict who will!

Romney
McConnell
Sasse
Murkowski
Collins

Who else?
 
So Schumer is saying the trial could begin on Tuesday. McConnell wants to push it back to mid February to give Trump’s legal team a chance to prepare. I just want 20 Republicans to vote to convict.

Let’s predict who will!

Romney
McConnell
Sasse
Murkowski
Collins

Who else?

WAIT!
We should have a House vote on impeaching Joe Biden before we get into the Senate vote on convicting poor loser Donald.
 
McConnell ain't convicting. It'll be "the Democrats' fault" because what Trump did was "wrong", "BUT"...
 
I'm sorry to ruin your metaphor, but the Americans have flushed already. The turd is gone. All that is left is a bit of stink. That's not going to go away with an impeachment. The stink will stay.

I live in Colorado, but travel to NY from time to time... If I murder someone in NY, get arrested and indicted, then get out of jail on bail before trial, I then should be able to go home to Colorado and not face any penalty in NY, because I left the state, right?

Trump left office, so his crimes in office are just as irrelevant as my NY murder... because I changed jurisdiction. Furthermore, penalizing me for murder wouldn't bring that person back to life... so actually it makes no sense to penalize someone for such a "crime" at all.

OR.. maybe you have an idea why it might make sense to go ahead with penalizing me for my out of state murder... how that wouldn't apply to Trump and his crimes is beyond me. Looking forward to your explanation..

But what's the point of the impeachment other than to make Trump hurt? Why hurt him at all?

Isn't it better to let the Americans decide if they want him back through votes?

While I think Trump is a vile creature, this is politics. No side looks good when kicking someone already down. I think it is petty

The point of impeachment is to remove a serious wrongdoer who has abused political power from access to political power. The punishment would come with any criminal or civil trials, which could still be waiting for Donald TRump. I hope the injured police officers and the family of the dead officer sue him bigly.
This is like asking, why debar a lawyer for wrongdoing if people still want to hire that lawyer; why prevent a doctor from practicing medicine if people still want to consult that doctor? A Senate decision is a decision made by practitioners of elective politics barring you from continuing in a profession because you have shown yourself to be a very bad practicer of that profession.
 
If you don't believe in the democratic process, and the ability of the American voters to keep from voting for tyrants, then why do you care? You can't believe in democracy, free speech and free expression, some of the time. It's an all or nothing situation.
This is beyond naive, and into frankly stupid territory. Democracy, like civil rights, are not 'all or nothing', unless every single person agrees with every single other person.

At some point, differnt opinions limit rights in various ways. This is so basic I have to wonder if you really meant what you wrote.

Its not a question of being naive. It's about asking your political opponents to get behind your leader when you win. For that to happen you need to get behind their leader when they win.

I think to continue to impeach Trump after he's out of office is petty respectless of his supporters. If you want them to respect you, you will need to respect them.
 
If you don't believe in the democratic process, and the ability of the American voters to keep from voting for tyrants, then why do you care? You can't believe in democracy, free speech and free expression, some of the time. It's an all or nothing situation.
This is beyond naive, and into frankly stupid territory. Democracy, like civil rights, are not 'all or nothing', unless every single person agrees with every single other person.

At some point, differnt opinions limit rights in various ways. This is so basic I have to wonder if you really meant what you wrote.

Its not a question of being naive. It's about asking your political opponents to get behind your leader when you win. For that to happen you need to get behind their leader when they win.

I think to continue to impeach Trump after he's out of office is petty respectless of his supporters. If you want them to respect you, you will need to respect them.

It's not petty. It's absolutely necessary to hold power accountable. It's not about Trump personally, although it's true that many of us would love to see him driven into a dirt hole like Saddam Hussein. It's about the highest god damn office in our land, which when abused, at best, shakes our faith in our institutions and the people entrusted to lead and and protect them. At worst, a corrupt President could destroy our country.

By not holding Trump accountable to the fullest extent, including banning him from public office forever and stripping him of all perks of presidential retirement, tells the world that the United States office of the Presidency is something we take seriously and will not tolerate abusing it and putting our democracy at risk.

If Trump is not held accountable to the fullest extent, we're just telling the world - including our enemies, the American people, and others who might aspire to be the next Trump that we do not hold power accountable and whoever can get the office can abuse it as they please with little or no consequences.

That is far, far more important, crucial even, than giving two shits about pettiness or about the opinions of people who cannot or will not hold their authority figures accountable, and who seem to be even less willing to do so the more abusive that authority figure is.

Ford did a huge disservice to our country by pardoning Nixon. Nixon the man and whatever humiliation he suffered after resigning is irrelevant to whether or not we tolerate corruption and abuse of power. I can't think of anything weaker from the standpoint of the world stage than letting a vapid, narcissistic, ignorant con man do as he pleases to your country from your highest office of power and then just let him retire quietly because right wing authoritarian morons don't want to hurt their master's feelings.

To think it's about being petty or not, quite frankly, is a deeply immature and shortsighted view. Thank goodness you have no influence here.

I'd also like to add that I would be just as adamant and vocal in the case of a foreign actor harming Donald Trump while he was President. That, too, would have nothing to do with the man personally, although, again, most of us would be thinking, "Good riddance." But we'd go to war if necessary because that's our highest fucking office and allowing a foreign agent to harm the person in it, no matter how much of a corrupt walking turd he may be, would be allowing no less than an act of war on our country. It's not about showing weakness; it's about not actually being weak and vulnerable to future aspiring corrupt powers who just saw Trump abuse the office for four years with no real consequences.
 
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