Impeachment II thread

[ZiprHead]

There's far more details further below in the complaint. Obviously Trump and Giulliani conspired, they were on the same stage spreading the same message. Both the PB and the OK discussed and shared their plan on internet message boards, primarily Parler. That's also conspiracy.

Huh? Trump and Giulliani conspired to what? The claim against Trump and Giulliani fizzles if you cannot show intent and agreement with the other parties to break into Congress and stop the counting of the electoral votes.

 

[Deepak]

There's far more details further below in the complaint. Obviously Trump and Giulliani conspired, they were on the same stage spreading the same message. Both the PB and the OK discussed and shared their plan on internet message boards, primarily Parler. That's also conspiracy.

Huh? Trump and Giulliani conspired to what? The claim against Trump and Giulliani fizzles if you cannot show intent and agreement with the other parties to break into Congress and stop the counting of the electoral votes.

It seems Trausti is privy to a different legal system than we have. One where you have to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt to random people on the internet with no understanding of court process and procedure (and who probably didn't read the complaint).

Back in the real world, where we follow a normal court process and people actually read the text of the complaint, I think I see enough in the facts to support the case being heard. There's clear coordination among the PBs and OKs using electronic devices to communicate during the commission of their crime. There's clear pictures of OKs with Stone. Stone communicated with Giuliani and Trump in the leadup to the crime, and is in the Trump inner circle. Outside of Trausti-land the fact finding happens in court - that is to say, the veracity of the claims is determined through the court process.

I'm sure he'll be kind enough to give us a procedural reason for his claim that the case shouldn't go to court though...

 

[ideologyhunter]

Trump and Giuliani just found juror #1. Eleven to go.

 

[Shadowy Man]

Trump and Giuliani just found juror #1. Eleven to go.

If it’s a criminal complaint they only need one.

 

[ZiprHead]

Trump and Giuliani just found juror #1. Eleven to go.

If it’s a criminal complaint they only need one.

Civil complaint. Only a majority needed.

 

[Patooka]

I guess by Trausti logic, I can drink a bottle of bourbon, run over someone over in my car and get away with it because I didn't mean to.

Also Trump did intend to overthrow the fair and honest results of a democratic election. That's not in dispute. That it killed more people than Benghazi only shows how much of an incompetent cunt he is, not how innocent.

 

[Swammerdami]

Not to worry. I'm sure Trump learned his lesson this time.

Lol. What in Trump's behaviour are you basing that on? It's his second impeachment. The penny didn't drop the first time around.

If anything he's learned that he can do whatever he wants and he knows he'll get away with it. The same "lesson" has has had all life.

I'll bet an entire years salary that Patooka was being sarcastic. That's how confident I am.

The sarcasm was apparent to me in a few milliseconds, and sometimes I'm a gullible one.

Sarcastic? He's talking about a President, who, upon his acquittal, released a statement referring to "the Constitution we all revere and for the sacred legal principles at the heart of our country." That is Donald John Trump saying that. A patriot! A lone warrior! A fighter for the forgotten man! Only one of the greatest Americans who ever drew breath, and I mean ever.

I'm retired. I'll bet three years of social security on this one.

 

[Swammerdami]

Mitch McConnell, the despicable coward, fails to uphold his oath of office punts to civil prosecutors and the courts to protect the constitution and democracy. I hope they hold trump accountable for Trump's failed coup.

McConnell's little epiphany was even more stridently damning then anything the House impeachment managers presented! It was stunningly direct. It seems incomprehensible that he wouldn't now actively seek to have charges brought against Trump. I mean, he can get away with claiming that you can't impeach someone after they've left office. But after what he said, how can he walk away from the conclusion that Trump is an imminent threat to our democracy? As a highly influencial minority leader he was the one person who could have changed the outcome of this ordeal. As the leader of the Republican party, and speaking as its moral conscience on the floor of the Senate at the conclusion of the trial, how can he now walk away from his duty to rid our nation of the clear and present danger that Trump continues to pose?

McConnell is focused on his personal political power, and cares little about America or his duties.

By condemning Trump with words he appeals to Republicans capable of rational thought, while voting to acquit he appeals to the majority, who don't grok complete sentences but will attend strictly to soundbites and the List of the Seven Traitorous Republican Senators™.

 

[lpetrich]

McConnell, Denouncing Trump After Voting to Acquit, Says His Hands Were Tied - The New York Times

Outraged Democrats saw the approach as a classic McConnell tactic: Create a politically expedient standard and then argue that the standard left him no choice but to do what suited him in the first place. They argued that he had tried to have his politics both ways, appeasing Mr. Trump’s supporters with his vote to acquit while trying to signal to establishment figures that he sided with them and that they should continue backing Republican candidates.

The dance around the conviction question by Mr. McConnell — a man usually eager to deploy the might of the Senate to suit his purposes — encapsulated the dilemma of Republicans, 42 of whom joined Mr. McConnell in judging Mr. Trump not guilty and delivering his second Senate impeachment acquittal in little more than a year. Only seven voted to convict.

In effect, MMC is good at playing Calvinball, making up rules as he goes.

 

[lpetrich]

Acquittal Vindicated the Constitution, Not Trump - WSJ - editorial by Sen. Mitch McConnell

"There is no question former President Trump bears moral responsibility," the Kentucky Republican wrote of the deadly Capitol riot that claimed five lives. "His supporters stormed the Capitol because of the unhinged falsehoods he shouted into the world's largest megaphone."

He continued: "I was as outraged as any member of Congress. But senators take our own oaths. Our job wasn't to find some way, any way, to inflict a punishment. The Senate's first and foundational duty was to protect the Constitution."

...
"Impeachment is not some final moral tribunal," he wrote. "It is a specific tool with a narrow purpose: restraining government officers. The instant Donald Trump ceased being the president, he exited the Senate's jurisdiction."

The Moment McConnell Killed The Republican Party - YouTube - I've OCRed the text from that video:

There is no question former President Trump bears moral responsibility. His supporters stormed the Capitol because of the unhinged falsehoods he shouted into the world's largest megaphone. His behavior during and after the chaos was also unconscionable, from attacking Vice President Mike Pence during the riot to praising the criminals after it ended.

I was as outraged as any member of Congress. But senators take our own oaths. Our job wasn't to find some way, any way, to inflict a punishment. The Senate's first and foundational duty was to protect the Constitution.

The instant Donald Trump ceased being the president, he exited the Senate's jurisdiction. I respect senators who reached the opposite answer. What deserve no respect are claims that constitutional concerns are trivialities that courageous senators would have ignored.

He runs out the clock and then wrings his hands and says "The clock has run out". He is like this archetypical example of chutzpah: killing one's parents and then begging for mercy because he is an orphan.

 

[lpetrich]

Giuliani not currently representing Trump 'in any legal matters,' adviser says - CNNPolitics

Is Trump looking for lawyers again?

Trump, in Scorching Attack on McConnell, Urges G.O.P. to Replace Him - The New York Times

Former President Donald J. Trump on Tuesday made a slashing and lengthy attack on Senator Mitch McConnell, the Republican minority leader, calling him a “dour, sullen, and unsmiling political hack” and arguing that the party would suffer losses in the future if he remained in charge.

“If Republican senators are going to stay with him, they will not win again,” Mr. Trump said.

...
In the statement, Mr. Trump resorted to insults about Mr. McConnell’s acumen and political abilities, and faulted him for Republicans’ loss of their Senate majority.

“The Republican Party can never again be respected or strong with political ‘leaders’ like Sen. Mitch McConnell at its helm,” Mr. Trump said. “McConnell’s dedication to business as usual, status quo policies, together with his lack of political insight, wisdom, skill, and personality, has rapidly driven him from majority leader to minority leader, and it will only get worse.”

Mr. Trump offered up some new taunts: “The Democrats and Chuck Schumer play McConnell like a fiddle — they’ve never had it so good — and they want to keep it that way!” he said. “We know our America First agenda is a winner, not McConnell’s Beltway First agenda or Biden’s America Last.”

...
Mr. Trump claimed credit for Mr. McConnell’s victory in his own Senate race last year and took a swipe at Mr. McConnell’s wife, Elaine Chao, who worked for the Trump administration as the transportation secretary.

“McConnell has no credibility on China because of his family’s substantial Chinese business holdings,” Mr. Trump said. “He does nothing on this tremendous economic and military threat.”

“He will never do what needs to be done, or what is right for our country,” Mr. Trump said, adding that “where necessary and appropriate, I will back primary rivals who espouse Making America Great Again and our policy of America First.”

MMC didn't respond, at least not in public. What might he be thinking? "I bail him out by running out the clock on his impeachment and then wringing my hands about how the clock has run out, and this is how he repays me? What an ingrate."

In private, Mr. McConnell has said he believed the impeachment proceedings would make it easier for Republicans to eventually purge Mr. Trump from the party. And he expressed surprise, and mild bemusement, at the hatchet-burying mission made to Mar-a-Lago, Mr. Trump’s private club in Palm Beach, Fla., by Representative Kevin McCarthy, the House minority leader.

 

[KeepTalking]

Complaints generally don't include details of the evidence.

A complaint still needs to allege facts to support whatever is being alleged. Conspiracy is a legal term with legal elements. This Complaint doesn't even try. https://naacp.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/Thompson-v.-Trump-Complaint-FILED.pdf

Alt F "intent" or "knowingly." Nada. Zip. This Complaint tells a story of Trump and his supporters contesting an election. That's it. That's not conspiracy.

View attachment 31932

Allegedly inciting a crowd is not conspiracy. The Complaint says there was a "unified plan" but gives no facts to support that. There is no factual allegation whatsoever in the Complaint that Trump or his Campaign knowingly or intentionally agreed with others to break into the Capital building and stop the vote counting. You kinda need that if you charge - as the congress member does - a conspiracy by Trump and others to stop Congress from counting the electoral votes.

LOL at Trausti hanging his hat on the complaint not having the words "intent" or "knowingly" in it to show that it is nearly as incompetent as Trump's lawyers, then when ZiprHead posts part of the complaint with that says "The insurrection at the Capital was a direct, intended, and foreseeable result of the Defendents' unlawful conspiracy." He retreats to a position that the complaint contains no facts to support it, despite the fact that it has already been explained to Trausti, who I believe at least claims to be a lawyer, that complaints don't generally include the evidence to be presented at the trial, and his subsequent admission that complaints only need to allege facts, which this one does in spades.

Where will you move those goalposts to next, Trausti?

 

[KeepTalking]

Complaints generally don't include details of the evidence.

A complaint still needs to allege facts to support whatever is being alleged. Conspiracy is a legal term with legal elements. This Complaint doesn't even try. https://naacp.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/Thompson-v.-Trump-Complaint-FILED.pdf

Alt F "intent" or "knowingly." Nada. Zip. This Complaint tells a story of Trump and his supporters contesting an election. That's it. That's not conspiracy.

There's far more details further below in the complaint. Obviously Trump and Giulliani conspired, they were on the same stage spreading the same message. Both the PB and the OK discussed and shared their plan on internet message boards, primarily Parler. That's also conspiracy.

Huh? Trump and Giulliani conspired to what? The claim against Trump and Giulliani fizzles if you cannot show intent and agreement with the other parties to break into Congress and stop the counting of the electoral votes.

Well, that was a quick bounce back to hanging your hat on "intent". Nearly whiplash inducing.

Trausti, you do realize that "intended" is simply "intent" used in the past tense, right?

 

[SLD]

https://www.nbcchicago.com/news/loc...n-letter-after-vote-to-impeach-trump/2439516/

So now Illinois Republican congressman, Adam Kinzinger has been accused by his own relatives of joining the Devil’s Army because of his vote to impeach Trump. Fuck me! These Trump supporters are seriously fucked up. And as typical it all boils down to religion. Fuck religion. Anyone who disagrees with me is part of the devil’s army and thus can be murdered. That’s religion in a nutshell.

 

[Elixir]

Anyone who disagrees with me is part of the devil’s army and thus can be murdered. That’s religion in a nutshell.

That's pretty much it - "the meek shall inherit the earth, so get out there and kill them before they take your shit".

 

[lpetrich]

Jamie Raskin derides Trump lawyers' tactics as 'explosive and deranged' | Trump impeachment (2021) | The Guardian
noting
Opinion | A conversation with Jamie Raskin - The Washington Post

Lead House impeachment manager Rep. Jamie B. Raskin (D-Md.) was still energetic, articulate and most of all optimistic Sunday morning after completing a grueling impeachment trial. I asked him by phone how he assembled such a granular timeline of events. “We had a wonderful team of managers and lawyers and researchers from the House Judiciary Committee,” he explained. “We also had the video from the security cameras and were able to draw from the public record.”

Even for the House managers, compiling all that material was eye-opening. “For people up on the Hill, they experienced it from their narrow vantage point,” Raskin said. The managers’ aim was to present the “entire outline” of events from Jan. 6 and, as important, the timeline of the former president’s effort to overturn the election. “The evidence was overwhelming, devastating, undisputable and undisputed.” As for the opposing counsel, Raskin called their lawyering “explosive and deranged.” He joked of the Joe Pesci movie, “They couldn’t get a summer internship with ‘My Cousin Vinny.’” In some sense, he suggested, the gap between the defense and the House managers’ teams (the “goofus and gallant” of lawyering) obscured that the House managers’ presentation would have shined even against competent counsel.

JR said that it was “good and terrible to watch” MMC concede the managers' arguments and that Republicans “felt the need to hang their hats” on an empty Constitutional argument. He said about the attack “It was very emotional. We could have lost it all. There were people calling their children to say goodbye. [Members] removed their pins” and about the trial “I told managers we were going to make a lawyerly case but would not censor the emotion.”

About Trump, “He is a profile in absolute cowardice,” Raskin said. “He betrayed the Constitution, the country and his people.” About him and the coup, “There was a method to all [his] madness. This was the counting of the electoral votes,” and Trump hoped that with enough electoral votes invalidated, “he could deny the election to Joe Biden.” The vote would go to the House, and Trump would “declare martial law” to put down the resulting protests.

Trump told VP Pence on that day, "You can either go down in history as a patriot or as a pussy."

JR continued “The American people understand who Donald Trump is. That kind of authoritarian relationship is a threat to democracy.” Or at least some of them. There are still plenty of Trumpies. Yet “Trump’s followers need to understand he has no loyalty to them.” What next? “President Biden and the Democrats need to speak to the needs, the fears” of many people. “Donald Trump is the past. We need to deal with the future.”

 

[lpetrich]

Trump attacks McConnell in fiery statement - POLITICO - "The Senate minority leader publicly soured on the former president after the Jan. 6 attack on the Capitol, breaking four years of loyal support."

Trump's statement

A person familiar with the crafting of the statement confirmed that it could have been far worse. An earlier draft mocked McConnell for having multiple chins, the person said. But Trump was convinced by advisers to take it out.

“There was also a lot of repetitive stuff and definitely something about him having too many chins but not enough smarts,” the person said.

Totally in character with such attacks as "Low-Energy Jeb", "Little Marco", and "Sleepy Joe".

Sen. Lindsey Graham (R-S.C.), in an interview with Fox News’ Sean Hannity on Tuesday night, said that while the views articulated in McConnell’s post-trial speech were not a “widely shared view of President Trump by most Republicans,” the senator also sided with the minority leader.

“Mitch McConnell was indispensable to Donald Trump’s success,” Graham said. “They’re now at each other’s throats. I’m more worried about 2022 than I’ve ever been. I don’t want to eat our own.”

“My beef is not with Mitch McConnell,” he added. “My beef is that we need to knock this off.”

 

[Keith&Co.]

“My beef is not with Mitch McConnell,” he added. “My beef is that we need to knock this off.”

We? You spineless, limp-dicked, self-serving, cowardly suppository of a political snail. You spent the last four years covering for, apologizing for, and kowtowing to this exact behavior, teaching Florida Man that it was allowable, effective, and desirable politics. You watched his name-calling, his divisive tactics, his brute force diplomacy (see also: bullying), and NOW you hope the main consumer of your ass-kissing, anal-felching, shit-burping efforts changes, suddenly, because the next eruption of shit might spatter on your shoes?

Get a really, really big, bright flashlight, a pair of tweezers, and find where your balls have got to, and help stop the next Trump from taking power, because it's too late to be the hero on this one.

 

[Worldtraveller]

There's far more details further below in the complaint. Obviously Trump and Giulliani conspired, they were on the same stage spreading the same message. Both the PB and the OK discussed and shared their plan on internet message boards, primarily Parler. That's also conspiracy.

Huh? Trump and Giulliani conspired to what? The claim against Trump and Giulliani fizzles if you cannot show intent and agreement with the other parties to break into Congress and stop the counting of the electoral votes.

Well, that was a quick bounce back to hanging your hat on "intent". Nearly whiplash inducing.

Trausti, you do realize that "intended" is simply "intent" used in the past tense, right?

Magic words, man, magic words.

 

[ideologyhunter]

"You are beautiful and we love you" -- that's what my family said to the guys who broke into our house, pissed on the walls, broke open all the doors that were locked, and killed one of the cops who responded to the 911 call.