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Is it racist for a prostitute to reject black men?

Tom Sawyer, who always uses the passive voice to disguise from himself what he is saying, thinks saying "I take this job" is affirmative consent.

It is. They can quit that job at any time. They would not be forced to have sex with anyone. Thus, it isn't rape. Just like a diner forced to serve blacks is not being forced into slavery. Rather, they are prohibited from having sex for money (or serving breakfast for money), if they choose not to provide that service to people based on race. See my above post for more and discussion of how this issue does still highlight the balance of concerns and rights that is inherent to discrimination laws.

A porn star does not have "a job". They don't employ their co stars. They are essentially independent contractors.

They work when they want to with whom they want to at prices for which they are willing to work.

Same is true for regular actors.

Are we going to start forcing Brad Pitt to take roles where his love interest is old black gay men if he does too many films with young hot white women?

This has nothing to do with the anything particular to sex work versus other businesses, and the thread is about prostitutes and people who have sex for money more generally, than porn stars specifically. The bottom line is that the argument that discrimination laws applied to the sex industry means "rape" is only as valid if the same laws applied to any business means "slavery".

How discrimination laws might vary between free lance contractors and more traditional workplaces is a separate matter having nothing to do with sex workers in particular.

Also, if a diner wants to hire an employee who says that they refuse to work with blacks, should that diner be allowed to hire that person and not hire blacks to appease them?
 
Tom Sawyer, who always uses the passive voice to disguise from himself what he is saying, thinks saying "I take this job" is affirmative consent.

It is. They can quit that job at any time. They would not be forced to have sex with anyone. Thus, it isn't rape. Just like a diner forced to serve blacks is not being forced into slavery. Rather, they are prohibited from having sex for money (or serving breakfast for money), if they choose not to provide that service to people based on race. See my above post for more and discussion of how this issue does still highlight the balance of concerns and rights that is inherent to discrimination laws.

OK, maybe not rape, but sexual harrassment for sure. That is, the employer is saying (implicity, perhaps) , "do this sexual thing I'm asking or find yourself another job". Wouldn't that be considered against the law in any job?
 
Tom Sawyer, who always uses the passive voice to disguise from himself what he is saying, thinks saying "I take this job" is affirmative consent.

It is. They can quit that job at any time. They would not be forced to have sex with anyone. Thus, it isn't rape. Just like a diner forced to serve blacks is not being forced into slavery. Rather, they are prohibited from having sex for money (or serving breakfast for money), if they choose not to provide that service to people based on race. See my above post for more and discussion of how this issue does still highlight the balance of concerns and rights that is inherent to discrimination laws.

OK, maybe not rape, but sexual harrassment for sure. That is, the employer is saying (implicity, perhaps) , "do this sexual thing I'm asking or find yourself another job". Wouldn't that be considered against the law in any job?

This is sex work we are discussing where sex is explicitly part of the job, but the inability to turn down a client is something from sexual harassment to rape in my opinion. Apparently the progressive opinion is that a sex worker must not discriminate in their clientele.

A prostitute who refuses to have sex with clients at all is not a very good prostitute.
 
Digging up an older thread due to current events.

Porn Star August Ames has committed suicide.

It started when she was being booked for a porn shoot, and discovered that her male coworker had done gay porn. Not exactly uncommon, but it was enough to want her to change the casting. She didn't want to engage in sex with a man who has engaged in sex with men. She has shot both male-female and female-female scenes and insists she isn't homophobic.

However, there was an internet shit-storm of politically correct bullying, insisting she was a homophobe for not doing this to the point where she committed suicide as a result.

Did she have a moral right to reject a costar who had engaged in homosexual male porn?

She has a right to not work with anyone she doesn't want to work with.

She doesn't have a right for people not to have an opinion about her choice.
 
Tom Sawyer, who always uses the passive voice to disguise from himself what he is saying, thinks saying "I take this job" is affirmative consent.

It is. They can quit that job at any time. They would not be forced to have sex with anyone. Thus, it isn't rape. Just like a diner forced to serve blacks is not being forced into slavery. Rather, they are prohibited from having sex for money (or serving breakfast for money), if they choose not to provide that service to people based on race. See my above post for more and discussion of how this issue does still highlight the balance of concerns and rights that is inherent to discrimination laws.

I argue the free market side of many issues. When the need for government to intervene in the employer-employee relationship comes up, I have been known to say that employees who are dissatisfied with one employer should seek another employer.

That is apparently a horrible thing to say, because simply going to get another job is apparently one of the most difficult things a person can do. My position, that employees have some agency, is considered anti-progressive and therefore horrible.

Now that we are discussing work when the job includes sex, I am being told that in the name of anti-discrimination, that the worker can simply quit their job at any time.

Again, you're trying to make "sex" the determining factor here, when the same rule applies to all jobs. All those progressives would tell you that any employee in any business should be fired if they refuse the same service to various people base on race.
Actually, the legal obligation is and should be to whomever owns the business to ensure the service is provided. They can do that by having a different willing employee perform the task or replacing that employee with someone who will.

Employers being required to do business in a way that doesn't threaten the public safety and thus requiring employees to abide by such codes is not remotely comparable to and employer doing whatever he wants to employees with their only recourse being to quit.
That is the false equivalence you are making.


In the case of August Ames, she wouldn't have sex with men who had sex with men. She would have sex with men who had not had sex with men. She would have sex with women. She just wouldn't have sex with men who had done gay porn. That was horribly anti-progressive apparently, and the progressive position is that she should simply find another job.

Her position was so horribly anti-progressive that the right thing to do was harass her into suicide.

Really? Please cite the widespread endorsement by progressives of wanting this woman to commit suicide.
99.99% of progressive would find such a sentiment abhorrent, and the majority probably have no problem with her refusal to have sex with men who've had gay sex. She got a couple tweets about it from a few idiots who don't grasp that not wanting to get HIV from someone who definitely exposed themselves to a high risk of it by doing gay porn says nothing about your views of homosexuals in general.
And just maybe she committed suicide because she was severely damaged by the repeated rape by her grandfather and that her dad refused to believe her (do you suspect progressive or conservatives are more likely to endorse not believing rape victims?)

Her scenario relates directly to the what I discussed in terms of STDs being the thing that makes sex work unusual from other jobs, where providing the service exposes the worker to severe risks and those risk levels are strongly tied to membership in groups protected by discrimination laws. Like I said, its rational for her to make that choice, as it would be for prostitutes to not want to have sex with black men. And in that context, discrimination laws don't even apply, because if they other actor is not hired based on her demands as a fellow employee, then it is not because he is gay but because he has previously worked in gay porn (which does not even mean the actor was gay, and is not something that is true of most gay men).
 
OK, maybe not rape, but sexual harrassment for sure. That is, the employer is saying (implicity, perhaps) , "do this sexual thing I'm asking or find yourself another job". Wouldn't that be considered against the law in any job?

This is sex work we are discussing where sex is explicitly part of the job, but the inability to turn down a client is something from sexual harassment to rape in my opinion. Apparently the progressive opinion is that a sex worker must not discriminate in their clientele.

I already exposed the total fallacy is your argument.
It isn't a "progressive" but simply honest rational opinion is that it's only "rape" to the same degree that abiding by any law related to any job is slavery. Do you believe that it slavery if a baker is forced to bake cakes for gays in exchange for having a business licence?

That's like saying that having spend a 3 hours at the DMV if you want to operate a motor vehicle means you are being imprisoned against your will at the DMV.
 
Do you believe that it slavery if a baker is forced to bake cakes for gays in exchange for having a business licence?
No, not slavery, but definitely government overreach.

That's like saying that having spend a 3 hours at the DMV if you want to operate a motor vehicle means you are being imprisoned against your will at the DMV.
More government overreach.
 
Do these borrowed crossover gay male porn stars have a different testing protocol as I have seen suggested, but not proven?

I found this from 2010

http://lahttp://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2010/12/hiv-infected-porn-actor-how-many-more-times-does-this-have-to-happen.html

Damn, that guy may have accidentally bit his lip while eating earlier or flossed too hard and then got HIV from giving head. Or something like that.

"In contrast to heterosexual adult films, homosexual-targeted productions more consistently require condoms. Due to the large number of HIV-positive performers, there is no requirement for HIV testing and condom use is the norm."

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1892037/

And yet, elsewhere, it is said that condom use in gay porn has been in decline since the 1990's:

"However, beginning in the 1990s, an increasing number of studios have been devoted to the production of new films featuring men engaging in unprotected sex"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gay_pornography#Bareback
 
Do these borrowed crossover gay male porn stars have a different testing protocol as I have seen suggested, but not proven?

I found this from 2010

http://lahttp://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2010/12/hiv-infected-porn-actor-how-many-more-times-does-this-have-to-happen.html

Damn, that guy may have accidentally bit his lip while eating earlier or flossed too hard and then got HIV from giving head. Or something like that.

"In contrast to heterosexual adult films, homosexual-targeted productions more consistently require condoms. Due to the large number of HIV-positive performers, there is no requirement for HIV testing and condom use is the norm."

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1892037/

And yet, elsewhere, it is said that condom use in gay porn has been in decline since the 1990's:

"However, beginning in the 1990s, an increasing number of studios have been devoted to the production of new films featuring men engaging in unprotected sex"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gay_pornography#Bareback

It doesn't matter. She can refuse to work with anyone for any reason.
 
I argue the free market side of many issues. When the need for government to intervene in the employer-employee relationship comes up, I have been known to say that employees who are dissatisfied with one employer should seek another employer.

That is apparently a horrible thing to say, because simply going to get another job is apparently one of the most difficult things a person can do. My position, that employees have some agency, is considered anti-progressive and therefore horrible.

Now that we are discussing work when the job includes sex, I am being told that in the name of anti-discrimination, that the worker can simply quit their job at any time.

Again, you're trying to make "sex" the determining factor here, when the same rule applies to all jobs. All those progressives would tell you that any employee in any business should be fired if they refuse the same service to various people base on race.
Actually, the legal obligation is and should be to whomever owns the business to ensure the service is provided. They can do that by having a different willing employee perform the task or replacing that employee with someone who will.

What I'm making the determining factor here is the inconsistency of those who are now saying that she can simply find another job. Actually there is a different consistency in play here - if it expands the reach of government then it is the position taken.

When I say that about other employment issues, I'm arguing against those who want to expand government (allegedly for the benefit or the employee). Now on this employment issue, I'm arguing against those who want to expand government (allegedly for anti-discrimination reasons).

OK, maybe not rape, but sexual harrassment for sure. That is, the employer is saying (implicity, perhaps) , "do this sexual thing I'm asking or find yourself another job". Wouldn't that be considered against the law in any job?

This is sex work we are discussing where sex is explicitly part of the job, but the inability to turn down a client is something from sexual harassment to rape in my opinion. Apparently the progressive opinion is that a sex worker must not discriminate in their clientele.

I already exposed the total fallacy is your argument.
It isn't a "progressive" but simply honest rational opinion is that it's only "rape" to the same degree that abiding by any law related to any job is slavery. Do you believe that it slavery if a baker is forced to bake cakes for gays in exchange for having a business licence?

That's like saying that having spend a 3 hours at the DMV if you want to operate a motor vehicle means you are being imprisoned against your will at the DMV.

And I don't believe in the concept of a business license. But since a business license does expand government (allegedly for the benefit of someone) you support it.

- - - Updated - - -

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IHS3BaIzcdQ[/youtube]
 
Yet all jobs are far from equal.
Since these guys apparently see all jobs as equal when it comes to governmental authority imposing its will, for purposes of determining whether a recipient of public benefits is voluntarily or involuntarily unemployed, presumably where prostitution is legal they'd favor inquiring into whether the recipient has attempted to find employment as a prostitute.
 
Digging up an older thread due to current events.

Porn Star August Ames has committed suicide.

It started when she was being booked for a porn shoot, and discovered that her male coworker had done gay porn. Not exactly uncommon, but it was enough to want her to change the casting. She didn't want to engage in sex with a man who has engaged in sex with men. She has shot both male-female and female-female scenes and insists she isn't homophobic.

However, there was an internet shit-storm of politically correct bullying, insisting she was a homophobe for not doing this to the point where she committed suicide as a result.

Did she have a moral right to reject a costar who had engaged in homosexual male porn?

Most variations of this question seem pretty easy. (She can reject costars if her contract says she can. If it says she can’t, she can either accept the costar or she can quit. If she quits, she might have to pay damages.)

The most interesting variation of this question I can think of would be: Suppose her contract gives her veto power over the selection of her costars, and suppose she rejects a costar because he’s previously engaged in same-sex intercourse. Should the exercise of her veto be nullified for going against public policy because the relevant jurisdiction disfavors discrimination in a commercial context based on sexual preference or past non-criminal sexual conduct? I’d uphold the veto power she contracted for in that case if I were the judge blazing new common-law ground, but I can imagine reasonable people taking the opposite position.

Most variations of the question seem much easier to me. For example, consider a policy saying that all unwanted sex is rape, so an actor always has the right to veto any sex scene without it being considered a breach of contract. The consequence of that rule is that any actor can veto shooting the final scene in any film, after having filmed the rest of it is a sunk cost for the producer, unless the producer pays her an extra $X to do so. Even if she’s already filmed with the same costar many times before, a woman has the right to change her mind, doesn’t she? Past consent isn’t present consent. So either pay her the extra $X or be unable to finish the project as planned. That policy would make producing adult content untenable.

So it can’t be the case that every actor can automatically have veto power over scenes they’ve already agreed to do. If she doesn’t want to do scenes with certain categories of costars, that needs to be stipulated up front as part of her contract. Then if she changes her mind about what kinds of costars she’s willing to shoot with, she can breach and pay damages, same as if she changed her mind for any other reason.
 
It is already stated on Wiki that she supposedly had the ability to delay filming, and considering that she made nearly 300 movies in around four years, she seems extraordinarily agreeable.
Ames had confirmed that she had a history of bipolar depression and multiple personality disorder due to a traumatic childhood, stating: "Some days I'll be fine and if I'm not doing anything I'll get these awful flashbacks of my childhood and I get very depressed and I can't get out of bed and cancel my scenes for like a week or two".
 
I argue the free market side of many issues. When the need for government to intervene in the employer-employee relationship comes up, I have been known to say that employees who are dissatisfied with one employer should seek another employer.

That is apparently a horrible thing to say, because simply going to get another job is apparently one of the most difficult things a person can do. My position, that employees have some agency, is considered anti-progressive and therefore horrible.

Now that we are discussing work when the job includes sex, I am being told that in the name of anti-discrimination, that the worker can simply quit their job at any time.

Again, you're trying to make "sex" the determining factor here, when the same rule applies to all jobs. All those progressives would tell you that any employee in any business should be fired if they refuse the same service to various people base on race.
Well, sure; but they'd also tell Jason he's a horrible person for suggesting that an employee who doesn't like the deal his boss is offering should quit. So they appear to have self-contradictory notions of whether an employment relationship is coercive. Anybody who on the one hand says "I take this job" constitutes affirmative consent to having sex with unwanted customers because the prostitute can quit that job at any time, but who on the other hand calls people with cruddy low-paying jobs "wage slaves" and advocates criminalizing private work-for-pay arrangements between consenting adults when the pay rate is below what he chooses to label "a living wage", on the grounds that the employee doesn't really have a choice and has to take whatever job she can get, is not only an authoritarian, but is an authoritarian with a double standard. That may not be you, but it appears to be the average progressive.

Employers being required to do business in a way that doesn't threaten the public safety and thus requiring employees to abide by such codes is not remotely comparable to and employer doing whatever he wants to employees with their only recourse being to quit.
That is the false equivalence you are making.

It doesn't look to me like he's making a false equivalence. It looks to me like you are. You are in effect suggesting that "If you want to sell sex you have to do it indiscriminately" is equivalent to "If you want to sell coal you have to shore up the tunnels". But by all means, make your case. Explain why that isn't a false equivalence. When a Samoan encounters a whore who turns him down because she's squicked by the idea of sex with a Samoan, and he says to her "Shut up, lie down, spread your legs, and let me screw your brains out, or else I'll have you fired", by all means, explain how if the government doesn't have his back it threatens the public safety.
 
To deny service to a person only because of their perceived race IS racist, by definition.
 
Most variations of this question seem pretty easy. (She can reject costars if her contract says she can. If it says she can’t, she can either accept the costar or she can quit. If she quits, she might have to pay damages.)
You're ALIVE! Yayyyy! [Watches average quality of TFT posts spike.]

Most variations of the question seem much easier to me. For example, consider a policy saying that all unwanted sex is rape, so an actor always has the right to veto any sex scene without it being considered a breach of contract. The consequence of that rule is that any actor can veto shooting the final scene in any film, after having filmed the rest of it is a sunk cost for the producer, unless the producer pays her an extra $X to do so. Even if she’s already filmed with the same costar many times before, a woman has the right to change her mind, doesn’t she? Past consent isn’t present consent. So either pay her the extra $X or be unable to finish the project as planned. That policy would make producing adult content untenable.
Well, you could buy insurance against it. As long as every actress who pulls that stunt gets an instant reputation for it and never works again unless she's the one financing the shoot, it should happen rarely enough for it to be profitable to sell no-means-no insurance.
 
To deny service to a person only because of their perceived race IS racist, by definition.

It is. So what? People are allowed to be racist. There are no laws that say that someone must engage in sexual contact with any other person even if their reasons for refusing such contact are racist. It may mean that she is a bad person or simply has an enormous blind spot or that her bank account will suffer because of her racism. Other non-black (or non-whatever race she refuses to have sex with) may refuse to patronize her services. We all have free choice about with whom we engage in sexual intercourse. Why should a prostitute not get the same rights? In fact, one of my biggest objections to prostitution is the fact that prostitutes are often forced to engage in sexual contact they do not want to engage in with people they do not want to have sexual contact.

Also, why is the prostitute always female? There certainly are plenty of male prostitutes.

I have my theories about this. Mostly they involve the fact that there are certain kinds of people who really, really, really enjoy writing about forcing women to perform sexual acts they don't wish to perform with people they do not wish to engage in such acts.

This thread is not about racist prostitutes but about why at least some women should not have the right to choose their sexual partners and sexual practices.
 
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