Is it racist for a prostitute to reject black men?

[ruby sparks]

Those are completely separate issues. The assumption for the sake of the current argument is that prostitution is a legal and regulated business and the prostitutes are there by choice. While that's obviously not realistic in the current world, it's the premise of the thought exercise about how such a business would run.

Reviewing the thread just now, it's not at all clear to me that many of the posts were not about real-world prostitution. It's certainly not in the OP.

However, if you are suggesting that we should do non-real world or hypothetical scenarios, I'd say fine, there might be some merit in that. But whilst there's nothing wrong with it, it is a bit, you know, hypothetical. So no I don't think the real world situation is a completely separate or irrelevant issue, though I don't mind if hypotheticals are also an option.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

I have heard girls (including black girls) say they don't like do get dances from black guys, girls (including latin girls) say they don't like to get dances from latin guys, and almost all girls say they don't like to get dances from young guys.

You mean "for", right?

They have reasons, mostly which have to do with their perceptions of how much money they make and how well they will be treated. These reasons are founded in their experience.

For 1:1 like hookers the perceived safety is another important issue.

Also a matter of expectations of respect. Here in Ontario strippers are famously not willing to dance for brown middle eastern looking men. Black men are fine.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

I see a few levels of assumptions here. One is that women who are prostitutes don't want to be. You shows some evidence on that, but then another assumption flowing from that is that them saying they don't want to be is them saying they are violently forced (it isn't the same thing - economic situation can "force" them to take a job and that job pays a lot more than working minimum wage at McDonalds). The option to sell sex for money is actually a privilege that attractive women have that others similarly desperate for money (including most men in that situation) don't have. An obvious solution is social support. I recommend universal basic income. And please don't be discriminatory and make it available only women to "save them from prostitution". Make it available to all who are in similar financial woes.

One assumption is that women who are prostitutes have pimps. You show some evidence on that (from a somewhat dubious source), but then another is that pimps are abusive. Certianly, there are abusive pimps who do sex trafficking of sex slaves, but is that to be assumed? People named as pimps are also often drivers, security, hotel and travel bookers, managers, etc. It does not have to be violent. Strip club owners may be counted in these numbers as well if strippers were equated to sex work, and sometimes they are.

 

[Toni]

I see a few levels of assumptions here. One is that women who are prostitutes don't want to be. You shows some evidence on that (from a somewhat dubious source), but then another is that them saying they don't want to be is them saying they are forced (it isn't the same thing - economic situation can "force" them to take a job and that job pays a lot more than working minimum wage at McDonalds). The option to sell one's body for money is actually a privilege that other people who are desperate for money (including most men in that situation) don't have. So this can be spun in multiple ways.

One assumption is that women who are prostitutes have pimps. You show some evidence on that (from a somewhat dubious source), but then another is that pimps are abusive. Certianly, there are abusive pimps who do sex trafficking of sex slaves, but is that to be assumed? People named as pimps are also often drivers, security, hotel and travel bookers, managers, etc. It does not have to be violent. Strip club owners may be counted in these numbers as well if strippers were equated to sex work, and sometimes they are.

Talk about assumptions!

What is 'dubious' about the source cited? It's in line with multiple studies I've run across and probably have cited in similar threads.

Many prostitutes have pimps. I see zero assumptions in this thread that all prostitutes have pimps.

The funniest/saddest/most pathetic is that there are hoards of men who long for the 'privelege' of working as prostitutes. If that were true, boys would not be trafficked and we know that they are. If prostitution were such a wonderful way to earn a living, no one would be trafficked--and yet, they are.

I'm pretty sure any guy who really wanted to work as a prostitute could do so. He might not like his clientele or the working conditions or the risks or the specific acts he'd be expected to perform on demand or the critiques about his body or his performance or his price or his insistence on condoms but so what? Isn't it better than McDonalds??

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Oh I don't agree. I think refusing to do business with someone based on race, religion, gender, sexual orientation is wrong and should be illegal. The exceptions would be in cases where there is a high degree of intimacy: sex work would be one. example. Some domestic work would be another. I might adamantly t oppose the reasons you do not wish to hire a male nanny or an Hispanic nanny--but it would be your right to choose who you like using whatever criteria you wish to use.

So you are saying that an individual's preferences matter more than the racism when there's intimacy.

Which is how the law tends to see it--for example, the anti-discrimination laws apply to renting an apartment but not to renting a room.

 

[ruby sparks]

Oh I don't agree. I think refusing to do business with someone based on race, religion, gender, sexual orientation is wrong and should be illegal. The exceptions would be in cases where there is a high degree of intimacy: sex work would be one. example. Some domestic work would be another. I might adamantly t oppose the reasons you do not wish to hire a male nanny or an Hispanic nanny--but it would be your right to choose who you like using whatever criteria you wish to use.

So you are saying that an individual's preferences matter more than the racism when there's intimacy.

Which is how the law tends to see it--for example, the anti-discrimination laws apply to renting an apartment but not to renting a room.

I didn't know that. Thanks. I see from a bit of quick googling that this is the case here in the UK too.

 

[ruby sparks]

I see a few levels of assumptions here. One is that women who are prostitutes don't want to be. You shows some evidence on that, but then another assumption flowing from that is that them saying they don't want to be is them saying they are violently forced (it isn't the same thing - economic situation can "force" them to take a job and that job pays a lot more than working minimum wage at McDonalds). The option to sell sex for money is actually a privilege that attractive women have that others similarly desperate for money (including most men in that situation) don't have. An obvious solution is social support. I recommend universal basic income. And please don't be discriminatory and make it available only women to "save them from prostitution". Make it available to all who are in similar financial woes.

One assumption is that women who are prostitutes have pimps. You show some evidence on that (from a somewhat dubious source), but then another is that pimps are abusive. Certianly, there are abusive pimps who do sex trafficking of sex slaves, but is that to be assumed? People named as pimps are also often drivers, security, hotel and travel bookers, managers, etc. It does not have to be violent. Strip club owners may be counted in these numbers as well if strippers were equated to sex work, and sometimes they are.

No, I cited the data without making any assumptions of that sort. I'm fine with prostitution in principle and accept that it's a service often willingly offered and paid for and I'd be in favour of legalising it. I just thought that if we are asking about prostitutes making choices, it wasn't entirely irrelevant to bear in mind the actual context. And yes I do think the actual context is often one of limited freedoms.

That said, it may be a side issue, especially if we are talking about situations where there is more choice and freedom, so I don't particularly want to detour more than momentarily into that aspect.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

The issue with August Ames was her not wanting to have sex with a man who (while having a recent HIV test) very likely was having extremely recent sex with men who are not tested stringently. The seroconversion could lag the testing frequency. Not because he is gay only was he refused and did she warn other porn stars on twitter.

No, he was not refused because he was gay. She did gay scenes herself. He was refused because he acted in male-on-male porn.

No. He was refused because he came from a market without the testing standards she demands.

 

[sharon45]

The issue with August Ames was her not wanting to have sex with a man who (while having a recent HIV test) very likely was having extremely recent sex with men who are not tested stringently. The seroconversion could lag the testing frequency. Not because he is gay only was he refused and did she warn other porn stars on twitter.

No, he was not refused because he was gay. She did gay scenes herself. He was refused because he acted in male-on-male porn.

No. He was refused because he came from a market without the testing standards she demands.

She should have kept that same keen conviction, then she would still be around to teach and inspire others with it.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

The funniest/saddest/most pathetic is that there are hoards of men who long for the 'privelege' of working as prostitutes.

Nice straw man you built there. I didn't say there were hoards of men who long to be prostitutes. I didn't say there are hoards of women who do either. I said that attractive women have a privilege of this being more of an option for them. Do you dispute that a young good looking woman has more earning potential as a prostitute than an old ugly man? She's got the option to make a lot of money quickly.

If that were true, boys would not be trafficked and we know that they are.

That doesn't follow at all, even from your strawman.

If prostitution were such a wonderful way to earn a living

Nobody said that either.

Prostitution can be something people willingly engage in and even enjoy, but I think we agree that most non-trafficked prostitutes do it for one reason only, and that reason is money. Often a lot of money, and usually more money than they could be making at Walmart or McDonalds with no education. A big trap for young pretty and popular strippers and sex workers is actually that they get used to the fast easy money, don't take care of their education or civilian work experience, get into drugs, and then get old and lose earning potential and wind up with a gaping hole in their resume and no way to earn money anywhere near what they were accustomed to.

I'm pretty sure any guy who really wanted to work as a prostitute could do so.

Depends on the guy. Most won't get customers or earn enough to live on. Working a minimum wage job is usually a more profitable option for them. Stark contrast to women. The market really is very slanted, yielding huge privilege to the women.

If your concern is women freely choosing to be prostitutes because of economic dire straights, because they have mouths to feed at home, etc, then you should be pushing for universal basic income (and universal health care).

If your concern is women (or men) being sex-trafficked, then you should support measures to locate and rescue them, and strict regulation, licensing, etc. Outlawing prostitution because some prostitutes are slaves is like outlawing agriculture or garment making becuase some workers are slaves.

 

[angelo]

You mean "for", right?

For 1:1 like hookers the perceived safety is another important issue.

Also a matter of expectations of respect. Here in Ontario strippers are famously not willing to dance for brown middle eastern looking men. Black men are fine.

Perhaps that is because many of them think they're not so much better than a dog?

 

[sharon45]

You mean "for", right?

For 1:1 like hookers the perceived safety is another important issue.

Also a matter of expectations of respect. Here in Ontario strippers are famously not willing to dance for brown middle eastern looking men. Black men are fine.

Perhaps that is because many of them think they're not so much better than a dog?

If that really were the case, then they don't seem to have too much respect for themselves either.

 

[angelo]

Perhaps that is because many of them think they're not so much better than a dog?

If that really were the case, then they don't seem to have too much respect for themselves either.

Only if it's the will of allah.

 

[Jason Harvestdancer]

A new wrinkle on the issue of sex and identity discrimination.

An adult film maker offered to hire someone who looked like a female to make an adult film. As it turns out the person who looked female had a penis. The offer was withdrawn. The performer called it a hate crime that the film maker wouldn't touch her lady penis. Apparently some people think that it is illegal discrimination to refuse to have sex with a trans person whose plumbing doesn't match your preferences.

Model, 25, who became Britain's youngest transgender person at 15 claims she's a victim of transphobia after pornographer refused to have sex with her because she has a penis
PORN IDENTITY Police investigating ‘hate crime’ after transgender woman turned down for porn role ‘because she has a penis’

Is it transphobia to refuse to have sex with a trans person? Is it a hate crime if it is part of employment such as prostitution and porn?

 

[Tom Sawyer]

A new wrinkle on the issue of sex and identity discrimination.

An adult film maker offered to hire someone who looked like a female to make an adult film. As it turns out the person who looked female had a penis. The offer was withdrawn. The performer called it a hate crime that the film maker wouldn't touch her lady penis. Apparently some people think that it is illegal discrimination to refuse to have sex with a trans person whose plumbing doesn't match your preferences.

Model, 25, who became Britain's youngest transgender person at 15 claims she's a victim of transphobia after pornographer refused to have sex with her because she has a penis
PORN IDENTITY Police investigating ‘hate crime’ after transgender woman turned down for porn role ‘because she has a penis’

Is it transphobia to refuse to have sex with a trans person? Is it a hate crime if it is part of employment such as prostitution and porn?

No. They weren't right for the role. It's also not bigoted to not consider paraplegic actors when casting for a movie about a track star.

 

[Jason Harvestdancer]

Is your answer just for porn, or also for prostitution?

 

[Keith&Co.]

Is it transphobia to refuse to have sex with a trans person? Is it a hate crime if it is part of employment such as prostitution and porn?

Well, it's not just refusing to have sex.
It's refusing to have sex on camera with someone who doesn't fit the target demographic of the intended product being cast. Which would be any consumers: gay or straight, cis or trans, notionally adults, black/white/brown/yellow, anyone who will pay money to see the people on the cover do sex with each other.

I'm sure he's got Model name/number on his rolodex, though, in case he ever wants to cast a different type of movie.

Funny, i always thought porn auditions involved nudity for pretty much this exact reason. Well, not EXACT reason. The general question is 'is it photogenic?' meaning tattoos, scars, stretch marks, shaved... But 'does you have a penis' would leap right out there as a concern, certainly for every other audition in the future.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

Is your answer just for porn, or also for prostitution?

Of course. If you want to have sex with someone while running on a racing track, a prostitute in a wheel chair can't fulfill your request.

 

[ronburgundy]

A new wrinkle on the issue of sex and identity discrimination.

An adult film maker offered to hire someone who looked like a female to make an adult film. As it turns out the person who looked female had a penis. The offer was withdrawn. The performer called it a hate crime that the film maker wouldn't touch her lady penis. Apparently some people think that it is illegal discrimination to refuse to have sex with a trans person whose plumbing doesn't match your preferences.

Model, 25, who became Britain's youngest transgender person at 15 claims she's a victim of transphobia after pornographer refused to have sex with her because she has a penis
PORN IDENTITY Police investigating ‘hate crime’ after transgender woman turned down for porn role ‘because she has a penis’

Is it transphobia to refuse to have sex with a trans person? Is it a hate crime if it is part of employment such as prostitution and porn?

Sex with someone that has a penis vs. a vagina are completely different things/products. If a person is inherently incapable of providing the requested service or product, then it is not discrimination not to hire them to provide a different product.

BTW, gender/racial discrimination are not "hate crimes". A hate crime is an act that is generally already a crime (e.g., assault), but where the target was chosen based upon hatred for the group the person belongs to. Illegal discrimination is an act that isn't generally a crime (choosing a person to hire) and only becomes one when bias against people in particular groups impacts the decision.

 

[Gun Nut]

counterargument:
The trans person engaged in fraud by misrepresenting their work capabilities to the employer.