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Is it racist for a prostitute to reject black men?

I think that there are differences between the wedding cake scenario and prostitution but also some similarities. I don't think a bakery has the right to refuse to produce a cake for a gay couple. I do think a baker has the right to refuse to provide gendered toppers for cakes or to write Congratulations Bob and Dave. I think those refusals must be consistent whether the couple is gay or straight.

I think that it is wrong to discriminate against someone because of race but even more wrong to compel someone to have sex with someone they don't wish to have sex. Even if the reason is racist. I think it is wrong to discriminate against people because of age or disability or gender but I believe that it is acceptable to decline (or to specifically choose) to have sex with someone because of any of these.

I think the two situations are exactly analogous when it comes to the relevant principles. But even if I did believe that the government should be able to compel businesses not to discriminate, I would definitely special-case something like prostitution.

My actual position is sort of the inverse, the government should not be able to compel businesses not to discriminate, unless there is a special case of healthcare, housing, financial services, and perhaps, businesses that have been incorporated.

Oh I don't agree. I think refusing to do business with someone based on race, religion, gender, sexual orientation is wrong and should be illegal. The exceptions would be in cases where there is a high degree of intimacy: sex work would be one. example. Some domestic work would be another. I might adamantly t oppose the reasons you do not wish to hire a male nanny or an Hispanic nanny--but it would be your right to choose who you like using whatever criteria you wish to use.

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I am with J842P on this. You SHOULD allowed to not take black people, redheads, or Norwegians as customers for no stated reason, unless you are a public company doing a public service that all citizens have a right to (and pay taxes for)

This seems to be contrary to your position with regards to sex workers.
 
This seems to be contrary to your position with regards to sex workers.

No Toni. That you see it that way should show you that you have made assumptions and assigned thoughts to me that were not expressed by me. You can go back to the previous page and review now and you should see this. That also may make you see what I was actually asking you and why, instead of how you imagined it.
 
Oh I don't agree. I think refusing to do business with someone based on race, religion, gender, sexual orientation is wrong and should be illegal. The exceptions would be in cases where there is a high degree of intimacy: sex work would be one. example. Some domestic work would be another. I might adamantly t oppose the reasons you do not wish to hire a male nanny or an Hispanic nanny--but it would be your right to choose who you like using whatever criteria you wish to use.

So you are saying that an individual's preferences matter more than the racism when there's intimacy.

So, a woman, say, might prefer not to have her body intimately examined by a black gynecologist. Ditto for a white man who doesn't want to have a rectal exam from a black doctor.

I'm not really comfortable with saying that's ok. I'm not saying it should be illegal. Illegaility is a slightly different issue. But it would still be racist, imo, and regrettable.

Also, all of these, including the people hiring the nanny, are 'customer side' perspectives. There is also the issue that a prostitute is arguably, like the doctor, the one providing the service, so isn't it a bit like saying that the black doctor ought to be free to have racial preferences regarding their customers? Similarly, would it be ok for a nanny to place an ad saying 'no blacks' because she doesn't like changing the dirty nappies of black kids?
 
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Oh I don't agree. I think refusing to do business with someone based on race, religion, gender, sexual orientation is wrong and should be illegal. The exceptions would be in cases where there is a high degree of intimacy: sex work would be one. example. Some domestic work would be another. I might adamantly t oppose the reasons you do not wish to hire a male nanny or an Hispanic nanny--but it would be your right to choose who you like using whatever criteria you wish to use.

So you are saying that an individual's preferences matter more than the racism when there's intimacy.

So, a woman, say, might prefer not to have her body intimately examined by a black gynecologist. Ditto for a white man who doesn't want to have a rectal exam from a black doctor.

I'm not really comfortable with saying that's ok. I'm not saying it should be illegal. Illegaility is a slightly different issue. But it would still be racist, imo, and regrettable.

Also, all of these, including the people hiring the nanny, are 'customer side' perspectives. There is also the issue that a prostitute is arguably, like the doctor, the one providing the service, so isn't it a bit like saying that the black doctor ought to be free to have racial preferences regarding their customers? Similarly, would it be ok for a nanny to place an ad saying 'no blacks' because she doesn't like changing the dirty nappies of black kids?

I'm not totally comfortable with it, either. It's racist and racism is bad, to state it very plainly. In my ideal world, it wouldn't matter to anyone, but it does. Racism is not illegal. We cannot legislate how people feel.

What I am saying is that a person's rights over their own body are more important than concerns over racism. Anyone has the right to refuse any sexual contact with any other person for any reason. Good reason/bad reason. It doesn't matter if I agree with it or not. I think we all know that there are plenty of people who only are interested in say: blondes or people with big boobs or red hair or all sorts of preferences. We don't automatically assign racism to a guy who only gets it up for blonde, blue eyed chicks, even though they are almost certainly white. We aren't crying RACIST! to the customer who selects the blonde, blue eyed prostitute over the black haired, dark eyed, dark skinned prostitute. And we all know that people make those choices, have those attractions and have aversions to certain characteristics that might or might not be race related. Some people would actively avoid anyone who reminded them of say, a parent or an ex, or someone who had been abusive towards them in the past. Some might be drawn to the same.

Prostitutes remain people and should have the same choices over sex partners as the rest of us.


Sex and sex work is more intimate and intimate in a different way than any medical care we might receive. Physicians take an oath to provide care for their patients. Physicians/medical providers do not allow access to intimate parts of their own body. They might establish a friendly relationship with the patient and most attempt to do so, in an attempt to put the patient at ease and to be able to gather more information aiding in the diagnosis and treatment of the patient. But that is a one way flow of information. Doctors do not discuss their own parents' medical histories, or their own with patients. It's not the same kind of relationship, physically, or emotionally or professionally. It doesn't have the same goals or the same code of ethics.

Nannies can and do screen prospective clients, just as parents do. There is no purity test for criteria. Ideally, both nanny and parent are looking for a situation where the nanny and parents will get along, and will be in agreement with what is best for the child being cared for and most importantly, the child will like and possibly love and bond with the nanny and all will regard the nanny as a part of the family.

I am not suggesting that it is ok to use race as a criteria for selecting a physician or a nanny or a client. I'm saying we all do make such choices on characteristics that are not just things we check off on a list of qualifications. We want an affinity, a kind of relationship and it needs to be mutual.
 
What if a gay person wants to hire a same gender prostitute that isn't gay or bi?
 
What if a gay person wants to hire a same gender prostitute that isn't gay or bi?

The same thing that happens if someone tries to hire a corporate lawyer to defend them in a criminal case - they're told that they don't provide that kind of service.
 
What if a gay person wants to hire a same gender prostitute that isn't gay or bi?

The same thing that happens if someone tries to hire a corporate lawyer to defend them in a criminal case - they're told that they don't provide that kind of service.

But aren't they then discriminating by gender?
 
Oh I don't agree. I think refusing to do business with someone based on race, religion, gender, sexual orientation is wrong and should be illegal. The exceptions would be in cases where there is a high degree of intimacy: sex work would be one. example. Some domestic work would be another. I might adamantly t oppose the reasons you do not wish to hire a male nanny or an Hispanic nanny--but it would be your right to choose who you like using whatever criteria you wish to use.

So you are saying that an individual's preferences matter more than the racism when there's intimacy.

So, a woman, say, might prefer not to have her body intimately examined by a black gynecologist. Ditto for a white man who doesn't want to have a rectal exam from a black doctor.

I'm not really comfortable with saying that's ok. I'm not saying it should be illegal. Illegaility is a slightly different issue. But it would still be racist, imo, and regrettable.

Also, all of these, including the people hiring the nanny, are 'customer side' perspectives. There is also the issue that a prostitute is arguably, like the doctor, the one providing the service, so isn't it a bit like saying that the black doctor ought to be free to have racial preferences regarding their customers? Similarly, would it be ok for a nanny to place an ad saying 'no blacks' because she doesn't like changing the dirty nappies of black kids?

I'm not totally comfortable with it, either. It's racist and racism is bad, to state it very plainly. In my ideal world, it wouldn't matter to anyone, but it does. Racism is not illegal. We cannot legislate how people feel.

What I am saying is that a person's rights over their own body are more important than concerns over racism. Anyone has the right to refuse any sexual contact with any other person for any reason. Good reason/bad reason. It doesn't matter if I agree with it or not. I think we all know that there are plenty of people who only are interested in say: blondes or people with big boobs or red hair or all sorts of preferences. We don't automatically assign racism to a guy who only gets it up for blonde, blue eyed chicks, even though they are almost certainly white. We aren't crying RACIST! to the customer who selects the blonde, blue eyed prostitute over the black haired, dark eyed, dark skinned prostitute. And we all know that people make those choices, have those attractions and have aversions to certain characteristics that might or might not be race related. Some people would actively avoid anyone who reminded them of say, a parent or an ex, or someone who had been abusive towards them in the past. Some might be drawn to the same.

Prostitutes remain people and should have the same choices over sex partners as the rest of us.


Sex and sex work is more intimate and intimate in a different way than any medical care we might receive. Physicians take an oath to provide care for their patients. Physicians/medical providers do not allow access to intimate parts of their own body. They might establish a friendly relationship with the patient and most attempt to do so, in an attempt to put the patient at ease and to be able to gather more information aiding in the diagnosis and treatment of the patient. But that is a one way flow of information. Doctors do not discuss their own parents' medical histories, or their own with patients. It's not the same kind of relationship, physically, or emotionally or professionally. It doesn't have the same goals or the same code of ethics.

Nannies can and do screen prospective clients, just as parents do. There is no purity test for criteria. Ideally, both nanny and parent are looking for a situation where the nanny and parents will get along, and will be in agreement with what is best for the child being cared for and most importantly, the child will like and possibly love and bond with the nanny and all will regard the nanny as a part of the family.

I am not suggesting that it is ok to use race as a criteria for selecting a physician or a nanny or a client. I'm saying we all do make such choices on characteristics that are not just things we check off on a list of qualifications. We want an affinity, a kind of relationship and it needs to be mutual.

Ok, so, I can see where you're coming from and I'm not saying it's unreasonable and we are just doing some thought experiments. Broadly, I think I agree with you, so bear that in mind if I now do some counter-examples. Also, I can't guarantee I won't flip-flop if someone else's argument sways me later. :)

If it were a male prostitute or porn actor (and I accept that we are mostly thinking of female prostitutes for understandable reasons) then him putting his penis into someone else's body with (hopefully) a latex wrapper is not all that different in terms of bodily integrity of the service provider to the doctor putting another part of his (or her) body into either of the two 'most relevant orifices', and I don't think you'd go along with doctors saying 'no blacks'. Ditto the nanny who may have to get his or her hands dirty*.

I take the point about the differences between medical contexts and sex work contexts but I wonder if you aren't applying at least some 'non-sex-worker' attributes to the sex work (such as when you say, "we all do make such choices on characteristics that are not just things we check off on a list of qualifications. We want an affinity, a kind of relationship and it needs to be mutual").

Hypothetically, if a prostitute is going to turn away a black person, then a few minutes later he or she is going to be intimate with another non-black person that is a stranger. The only difference is that we are allowing the prostitute to discriminate on grounds of skin colour (assuming there's nothing else involved). The intimacy with a stranger thing is arguably already a non-issue, at least in principle, of itself, again assuming there's nothing other than skin colour involved, nothing like not having washed or being aggressive or whatever. That's not to deny the prostitute any degree of personhood or autonomy, by the way. But he or she is arguably not in a relationship where affinity is a priority.

The other question I'm wondering is, what about other sexual intimacies. An actor, for example could refuse to kiss or get into a naked sex scene (simulated) with a black person. On their resume they could say 'no blacks'. They could use a version of the intimacy argument, albeit without penetration, they could say that they have a lower threshold for what they consider intimate. But then, as I said, the prostitute already accepts penetration by strangers, so all that's relevant is the skin colour preference.

Bottom, line, I think I mostly agree with you, with some reservations. My guess is that if prostitution were to be legal that it might not be possible for prostitutes to get away with advertising 'no blacks' even if in practice that's their unstated policy. I'm having a bit of trouble setting aside the racism and the fact that someone is providing a service and not just going about their private personal business. So, in a way, I could see how someone more concerned about racism than about bodily integrity could come to a different stance.

By the way, that suggestion of yours that at least for some people, what this is about is forcing women to do stuff they don't want to, is not necessarily far-out or ridiculous. I just don't know if you can tell whether it's operative for a person you're discussing with on the internet. That said, it's something I personally would keep in mind, as a possibility.

Another thing to bear in mind is that many many prostitutes aren't doing their work entirely out of free choice, so I would have more sympathy with them in terms of choosing generally, I think. This might even be an elephant in the room, 'prostitute choice' mostly not being free.



*I was almost going to cite a white vet who won't stick his or her arm up the rear end of cows with certain markings, but I guess that's not as controversial. :)
 
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What if a gay person wants to hire a same gender prostitute that isn't gay or bi?

The same thing that happens if someone tries to hire a corporate lawyer to defend them in a criminal case - they're told that they don't provide that kind of service.

But aren't they then discriminating by gender?

No. Not everybody working in an industry provides every service in that industry. If they provide heterosexual sex, then not providing homosexual sex is as discriminatory against gender as a Chinese restaurant not making a customer a pizza is discriminatory against Italians - in that it's not at all. It's just not a thing that they do.

If the restaurant owners have accepted customer requests and made pizzas in the past but just don't feel like doing it today, that's also completely fine. They can just turn down any customers they want simply because they want to. It's when they take the extra step and say that they won't make you a pizza because you're a Mexican that it becomes an issue.
 
But aren't they then discriminating by gender?

No. Not everybody working in an industry provides every service in that industry. If they provide heterosexual sex, then not providing homosexual sex is as discriminatory against gender as a Chinese restaurant not making a customer a pizza is discriminatory against Italians - in that it's not at all. It's just not a thing that they do.

If the restaurant owners have accepted customer requests and made pizzas in the past but just don't feel like doing it today, that's also completely fine. They can just turn down any customers they want simply because they want to. It's when they take the extra step and say that they won't make you a pizza because you're a Mexican that it becomes an issue.

So if I understand your position you think its OK for blacksonblondes.com to hire only black men and white women, but it would not be OK if they said they don't hire white men and don't hire black women?

It's the saying you won't hire someone that is your problem?
 
I'm not totally comfortable with it, either. It's racist and racism is bad, to state it very plainly. In my ideal world, it wouldn't matter to anyone, but it does. Racism is not illegal. We cannot legislate how people feel.

What I am saying is that a person's rights over their own body are more important than concerns over racism. Anyone has the right to refuse any sexual contact with any other person for any reason. Good reason/bad reason. It doesn't matter if I agree with it or not. I think we all know that there are plenty of people who only are interested in say: blondes or people with big boobs or red hair or all sorts of preferences. We don't automatically assign racism to a guy who only gets it up for blonde, blue eyed chicks, even though they are almost certainly white. We aren't crying RACIST! to the customer who selects the blonde, blue eyed prostitute over the black haired, dark eyed, dark skinned prostitute. And we all know that people make those choices, have those attractions and have aversions to certain characteristics that might or might not be race related. Some people would actively avoid anyone who reminded them of say, a parent or an ex, or someone who had been abusive towards them in the past. Some might be drawn to the same.

Prostitutes remain people and should have the same choices over sex partners as the rest of us.


Sex and sex work is more intimate and intimate in a different way than any medical care we might receive. Physicians take an oath to provide care for their patients. Physicians/medical providers do not allow access to intimate parts of their own body. They might establish a friendly relationship with the patient and most attempt to do so, in an attempt to put the patient at ease and to be able to gather more information aiding in the diagnosis and treatment of the patient. But that is a one way flow of information. Doctors do not discuss their own parents' medical histories, or their own with patients. It's not the same kind of relationship, physically, or emotionally or professionally. It doesn't have the same goals or the same code of ethics.

Nannies can and do screen prospective clients, just as parents do. There is no purity test for criteria. Ideally, both nanny and parent are looking for a situation where the nanny and parents will get along, and will be in agreement with what is best for the child being cared for and most importantly, the child will like and possibly love and bond with the nanny and all will regard the nanny as a part of the family.

I am not suggesting that it is ok to use race as a criteria for selecting a physician or a nanny or a client. I'm saying we all do make such choices on characteristics that are not just things we check off on a list of qualifications. We want an affinity, a kind of relationship and it needs to be mutual.

Ok, so, I can see where you're coming from and I'm not saying it's unreasonable and we are just doing some thought experiments. Broadly, I think I agree with you, so bear that in mind if I now do some counter-examples. Also, I can't guarantee I won't flip-flop if someone else's argument sways me later. :)

If it were a male prostitute or porn actor (and I accept that we are mostly thinking of female prostitutes for understandable reasons) then him putting his penis into someone else's body with (hopefully) a latex wrapper is not all that different in terms of bodily integrity of the service provider to the doctor putting another part of his (or her) body into either of the two 'most relevant orifices', and I don't think you'd go along with doctors saying 'no blacks'. Ditto the nanny who may have to get his or her hands dirty*.

I take the point about the differences between medical contexts and sex work contexts but I wonder if you aren't applying at least some 'non-sex-worker' attributes to the sex work. Hypothetically, if a prostitute is going to turn away a black person, then a few minutes later he or she might be intimate with another non-black person that is a stranger. The only difference is that we are allowing the prostitute to discriminate on grounds of skin colour. The intimacy with a stranger thing is arguably already a non-issue.

The other question I'm wondering is, what about other sexual intimacies. An actor, for example could refuse to kiss or get into a naked sex scene (simulated) with a black person. On their resume they could say 'no blacks'. They could use a version of the intimacy argument, albeit without penetration. But then, as I said, the prostitute already accepts penetration by strangers, so all that's relevant is the skin colour preference.

Bottom, line, I think I mostly agree with you, with some reservations. My guess is that if prostitution were to be legal that it might not be possible for prostitutes to get away with advertising 'no blacks' even if in practice that's their unstated policy. I'm having a bit of trouble setting aside the racism and the fact that someone is providing a service and not just going about their private personal business. So, in a way, I could see how someone more concerned about racism than about bodily integrity could come to a different stance.



*I was almost going to cite a white vet who won't stick his or her arm up the rear end of cows with certain markings, but I guess that's not as controversial. :)

Doctors performing intimate exams are not at all the same thing as a sex worker (any gender, whether for film or for a client) inserting penis or having a penis inserted. Latex doesn't matter.

A doctor is performing a medical exam, looking for information and actively seeks to avoid an emotional or sexual response on the part of the examiner or the patient. It is an intellectual, not an emotional process. For a sex worker, however they might feel emotionally about what is happening, is seeking to elicit a sexual and possibly an emotional response and is expected to at least fake one of his/her own. If this were not part of the point of frequenting a prostitute, why aren't people just jerking off in the convenience of their own homes?

As far as I am aware, these days an actor could not get away with refusing to perform with someone because of their race. Mel Gibson paid a hefty price (too light, imo, and I like at least some of his films) for his stated opinions about race, religion and allegations of domestic violence. He was and still is a pretty big name. Calling out studios for the lack of representation of non-white actors (not to mention the paucity of female dominated casts) is only starting to gain any kind of traction. But it's coming.

I agree that legalizing prostitution might make it illegal for a prostitute to openly refuse to provide services to members of certain races.

For me, again, the bottom line is that a person has the absolute right to refuse to provide or engage in any sexual act for any reason at any time. Period.

Even if their reasons are reprehensible.
 
If you provide a service to the public you should not discriminate people just because of color etc. what is this so hard to understandhave you all forgotten Rosa Parks?

Pornstars do not provide a "service to the public". They perform with whom they consent to perform.

The issue with August Ames was her not wanting to have sex with a man who (while having a recent HIV test) very likely was having extremely recent sex with men who are not tested stringently. The seroconversion could lag the testing frequency. Not because he is gay only was he refused and did she warn other porn stars on twitter.
 
Personally, I'm finding this a very tricky topic to come to a settled opinion on. There seems to be two ways of looking at it at almost every juncture. So, while I felt I could agree with you a moment ago, it occurred to me that there's an answer to that question which would involve being keen not to have black people discriminated against just because of their skin colour.

I'm with you on this one. I've run out of hands for my thoughts: "On the other hand..." :D

Because sex is involved, I do not like the idea of any person being required to have sex with any other person, regardless their reasons

OTOH, because commerce is involved, an employee doesn't get to dictate who their co-workers are

OTOH, employees do have a right to demand safe working conditions, and if HIV is a genuine threat then perhaps she had the right to object to exposure

OTOH, was she using the mere hypothetical of HIV as a cover to discriminate

OTOH...
 
If a prostitute advertises without saying any stipulation on race and then later says no because he is black, does that qualify as fraud on her part?
 
I agree that legalizing prostitution might make it illegal for a prostitute to openly refuse to provide services to members of certain races.

For me, again, the bottom line is that a person has the absolute right to refuse to provide or engage in any sexual act for any reason at any time. Period.

Even if their reasons are reprehensible.

Stripping is legal and I hear comments like this all the time from strippers.

I have heard girls (including black girls) say they don't like do get dances from black guys, girls (including latin girls) say they don't like to get dances from latin guys, and almost all girls say they don't like to get dances from young guys.

They have reasons, mostly which have to do with their perceptions of how much money they make and how well they will be treated. These reasons are founded in their experience.
 
People should be free to discriminate all they want, except perhaps for businesses that have been granted corporation status, or and a few select industries (say, healthcare, finance, maybe some others).

Just for the record, the Colorado baker is incorporated: Masterpiece Cakeshop, Ltd.
 
If you provide a service to the public you should not discriminate people just because of color etc. what is this so hard to understandhave you all forgotten Rosa Parks?

Pornstars do not provide a "service to the public". They perform with whom they consent to perform.

The issue with August Ames was her not wanting to have sex with a man who (while having a recent HIV test) very likely was having extremely recent sex with men who are not tested stringently. The seroconversion could lag the testing frequency. Not because he is gay only was he refused and did she warn other porn stars on twitter.

No, he was not refused because he was gay. She did gay scenes herself. He was refused because he acted in male-on-male porn.
 
For me, again, the bottom line is that a person has the absolute right to refuse to provide or engage in any sexual act for any reason at any time. Period.

Even if their reasons are reprehensible.

No prob. I can see where you're coming from. Incidentally, I edited my post after or during your reply. It's a bad habit of mine. :(
 
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