Is it racist for a prostitute to reject black men?

[ruby sparks]

For me, again, the bottom line is that a person has the absolute right to refuse to provide or engage in any sexual act for any reason at any time. Period.

Even if their reasons are reprehensible.

Most notably, I added:

"By the way, that suggestion of yours that at least for some people, what this is about is forcing women to do stuff they don't want to, is not necessarily far-out or ridiculous. I just don't know if you can tell whether it's operative for a person you're discussing with on the internet. That said, it's something I personally would keep in mind, as a possibility.

Another thing to bear in mind is that many many prostitutes aren't doing their work entirely out of free choice, so I would have more sympathy with them in terms of choosing generally, I think. This might even be an elephant in the room, 'prostitute choice' mostly not being free."

 

[repoman]

The issue with August Ames was her not wanting to have sex with a man who (while having a recent HIV test) very likely was having extremely recent sex with men who are not tested stringently. The seroconversion could lag the testing frequency. Not because he is gay only was he refused and did she warn other porn stars on twitter.

No, he was not refused because he was gay. She did gay scenes herself. He was refused because he acted in male-on-male porn.

I think a clear distinction should be made between gay male and gay female (lesbian) porn because of inherent HIV risk of both activities. They are not the same "gay" and this is not a moral judgment from me.

Is it fair that her gay activities are safer than a gay man's activities? No, but this is about medical reality.

She was not homophobic, she was HIV phobic.

 

[Derec]

Another thing to bear in mind is that many many prostitutes aren't doing their work entirely out of free choice, so I would have more sympathy with them in terms of choosing generally, I think. This might even be an elephant in the room, 'prostitute choice' mostly not being free."

What evidence do you have for that?

 

[Derec]

I have heard girls (including black girls) say they don't like do get dances from black guys, girls (including latin girls) say they don't like to get dances from latin guys, and almost all girls say they don't like to get dances from young guys.

You mean "for", right?

They have reasons, mostly which have to do with their perceptions of how much money they make and how well they will be treated. These reasons are founded in their experience.

For 1:1 like hookers the perceived safety is another important issue.

 

[dismal]

The issue with August Ames was her not wanting to have sex with a man who (while having a recent HIV test) very likely was having extremely recent sex with men who are not tested stringently. The seroconversion could lag the testing frequency. Not because he is gay only was he refused and did she warn other porn stars on twitter.

No, he was not refused because he was gay. She did gay scenes herself. He was refused because he acted in male-on-male porn.

I think a clear distinction should be made between gay male and gay female (lesbian) porn because of inherent HIV risk of both activities. They are not the same "gay" and this is not a moral judgment from me.

Is it fair that her gay activities are safer than a gay man's activities? No, but this is about medical reality.

She was not homophobic, she was HIV phobic.

The main distinction I was making was between "gay men" and "men who have acted in male on male porn".

There is no evidence she would refuse a gay man who had not acted in male on male porn, and no evidence she would accept a man who was not gay who had acted in male on male porn.

But I should also add in my view it doesn't matter. She can refuse anyone for any reason.

 

[ruby sparks]

Another thing to bear in mind is that many many prostitutes aren't doing their work entirely out of free choice, so I would have more sympathy with them in terms of choosing generally, I think. This might even be an elephant in the room, 'prostitute choice' mostly not being free."

What evidence do you have for that?

Whatever the percentage, it is not free a lot of the time. Do you doubt that?

Try this:

"A 2003 study first published in the scientific Journal of Trauma Practice found that 89 percent of women in prostitution want to escape."
https://2001-2009.state.gov/r/pa/ei/rls/38790.htm#1

Of course you could maybe do a survey of people working in McDonalds and get a similar percentage.

But they're not controlled by pimps (84% of prostitutes are) and are not trafficked as often. And they're not having people put their cocks inside them.

Prostitutes are often vulnerable persons who may have suffered abuse. They may be in the grip of drug addiction.

Also, think of prostitution in parts of the world not as 'developed' as some other parts.

 

[ruby sparks]

As Harvard Law Professor Catherine McKinnon puts it, "if prostitution were a free choice, more men would become prostitutes".

http://nf2014.org/en/2014/06/15/catherine-mackinnon-prostitution-is-not-a-choice/

I just think it's a valid consideration to add to all the others.

For example, how many of the pimps apparently controlling 84% of prostitutes In the USA do you think aren't going to coerce a woman to service particular clients against their choice?

 

[Derec]

As Harvard Law Professor Catherine McKinnon puts it, "if prostitution were a free choice, more men would become prostitutes".

- C. McKinnon is a radical feminist in the mold of Andrea Dworkin (in fact the two worked together on banning porn) and nothing she says should be believed by anybody.
- The reason so few men are sex-workers who cater to women is supply and demand. Pretty much any woman can get laid for free (and will probably get a free drink or two as well) just by going to a bar or a club. So why pay for it?

For example, how many of the pimps apparently controlling 84% of prostitutes In the USA do you think aren't going to coerce a woman to service particular clients against their choice?

Where did you get that number?

 

[Tom Sawyer]

As Harvard Law Professor Catherine McKinnon puts it, "if prostitution were a free choice, more men would become prostitutes".

http://nf2014.org/en/2014/06/15/catherine-mackinnon-prostitution-is-not-a-choice/

I just think it's a valid consideration to add to all the others.

For example, how many of the pimps apparently controlling 84% of prostitutes In the USA do you think aren't going to coerce a woman to service particular clients against their choice?

Those are completely separate issues. The assumption for the sake of the current argument is that prostitution is a legal and regulated business and the prostitutes are there by choice. While that's obviously not realistic in the current world, it's the premise of the thought exercise about how such a business would run.

 

[Derec]

"A 2003 study first published in the scientific Journal of Trauma Practice found that 89 percent of women in prostitution want to escape."
https://2001-2009.state.gov/r/pa/ei/rls/38790.htm#1

A very political "study" where the conclusion (prostitution is bad, mkay) was determined before the start of the "study".

Unfortunately, the religious right and feminist left are of one illiberal authoritarian mind when it comes to sex work.

Just like how Reagan's AG Ed Meese and radical feminazis like Dworkin, McKinnon et al saw eye to eye when it came to their hatred of porn.

 

[Toni]

"A 2003 study first published in the scientific Journal of Trauma Practice found that 89 percent of women in prostitution want to escape."
https://2001-2009.state.gov/r/pa/ei/rls/38790.htm#1

A very political "study" where the conclusion (prostitution is bad, mkay) was determined before the start of the "study".

Unfortunately, the religious right and feminist left are of one illiberal authoritarian mind when it comes to sex work.

Just like how Reagan's AG Ed Meese and radical feminazis like Dworkin, McKinnon et al saw eye to eye when it came to their hatred of porn.

Gee, Derec. Do you think that maybe you would come across as a little bit less hypocritical if you didn't accuse those who publish papers you disagree with of having a political motive and calling them names?

BTW, exactly what are your qualifications for evaluating McKinnon's work?

Oh, right: you visit prostitutes.

Throwing that bit of info out there because there are newcomers to this board who maybe don't know us old timers yet. Just so we all are on the same page at how 100% not-invested in the validity or conclusions of any study you really are.

 

[sharon45]

BTW, exactly what are your qualifications for evaluating McKinnon's work?

What, people aren't just entitled to their own opinion?

 

[Toni]

BTW, exactly what are your qualifications for evaluating McKinnon's work?

What, people aren't just entitled to their own opinion?

Of course they are. Who said otherwise?

And everyone is entitled to evaluate someone's qualifications, background, prejudices and propensities when they evaluate those stated opinions.

McKinnon is well qualified for her work by her academic credentials. Derec also has credentials.

Derec makes much of his assumptions about McKinnon's work and that she has political biases which affect her work. I'm just pointing out that Derec also has his own biases which might affect his opinions. He has skin in the game, so to speak.

Me, I'm just an old lady with an internet connection.

 

[sharon45]

BTW, exactly what are your qualifications for evaluating McKinnon's work?

What, people aren't just entitled to their own opinion?

Of course they are. Who said otherwise?

Because you seem to imply this idea with your "what are your qualifications for evaluating" question.

McKinnon is well qualified for her work by her academic credentials.

Well, for me, reputation should have to be earned with each new evaluation.

Derec makes much of his assumptions about McKinnon's work and that she has political biases which affect her work.

Yet, at the moment, this is merely an assumption of Derec.

I'm just pointing out that Derec also has his own biases which might affect his opinions. He has skin in the game, so to speak.

Yes, and McKinnon also probably has skin in the game. I've already said here that I strongly disagree with the practice of prostitution, and even pornography, but I don't want the government involved in it, I think people need to freely be able to figure it out on their own.

 

[Toni]

Of course they are. Who said otherwise?

Because you seem to imply this idea with your "what are your qualifications for evaluating" question.

McKinnon is well qualified for her work by her academic credentials.

Well, for me, reputation should have to be earned with each new evaluation.

So, your physician needs to go to medical school all over again before each of your visits? I don't think so.

McKinnon's credentials are comparable with those of a physician. She has education, skills, background, knowledge and expertise that not everyone has. Certainly I do not have the expertise she does in the areas she writes.

Derec makes much of his assumptions about McKinnon's work and that she has political biases which affect her work.

Yet, at the moment, this is merely an assumption of Derec.

Not an assumption: a familiarity with Derec's positions and background with respect to prostitution (and other issues). I've been posting on this forum for over 6 years now. Derec has been around longer than that, I believe.

I'm just pointing out that Derec also has his own biases which might affect his opinions. He has skin in the game, so to speak.

Yes, and McKinnon also probably has skin in the game.

You think she's a prostitute? Or frequents prostitutes? I don't think so.

I am certain that she has a point of view. I'm also certain that her point of view is informed by her background, education, training, etc.

I've already said here that I strongly disagree with the practice of prostitution, and even pornography, but I don't want the government involved in it, I think people need to freely be able to figure it out on their own.

That's nice. I'm sure that will be of great comfort to all of the runaways who get caught up in sex trafficking. Eventually, they'll figure out a way to leave. No need for anything like laws or rights or any of that government stuff.

Unless you mean that the government shouldn't sponsor or participate in prostitution. I'm with you there. All the way.

 

[RavenSky]

/mod

 

[sharon45]

nm

 

[repoman]

Is the newer topic of August Ames also fair game for this thread?

 

[RavenSky]

Is the newer topic of August Ames also fair game for this thread?

While she wasn't a prostitute, the particulars of her situation (sex for money) seems to me to be on topic.

I don't have an objection if the other mods don't.

 

[ruby sparks]

Where did you get that number?

McKinnon cited it. She cited it in conjunction with the 89% of unhappy prostitutes from the government survey. I take the point about possible bias on board, but unless you have more reliable statistics I'm going to run with the idea that McKinnon gets her figures from somewhere and that as a lawyer she may have biases but she'd be careful about false claims.

Some more figures from other sources:

"90 percent of prostituted women have been physically abused as children"
https://www.soroptimist.org/trafficking/prostitution_faq.html

About 40% of prostitutes are former child prostitutes who were illegally forced into the profession through human trafficking or once were teenage runaways.

58% of American prostitutes reported violent assault at the hands of clients.

"60% percent of children reported missing as a result of running away become prostitutes for some period of time to survive."

"92% of prostitutes say they want to leave prostitution but can't because of a lack of money and food"

https://sex-crimes.laws.com/prostitution/prostitution-statistics

That second article also says that female prostitutes, unlike male prostitutes, usually have pimps.

Look, I didn't float up the river in a bubble yesterday. Don't try to tell me there aren't serious issues of many sorts regarding prostitution.

That doesn't mean I think it's bad, wrong or evil. In principle, I'm ok with it. Heck, I've even more or less agreed that a prostitute should have more than usual freedom to exercise preferences about clients.